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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby pablonite » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 11:39:18

yeahbut wrote:The Ordovician example cited is in fact evidence for the intimate relationship between CO2 levels and climate, rather than against it. If the earth of today, with current levels of solar energy output, had an atmosphere with CO2 at or close to Ordovician levels, none of us would be having these conversations.

I think we can be fairly accurate regarding how much energy is absorbed by earth in watts per meter squared today but that to me is where the "science" ends. From there on in it's all computer modelling and feedback loops. We can really only take an estimate of what energy has been getting fed into the system over time based on assumptions like the one above.

The equations being used for feedback loops and the data being pushed through them is highly suspect.

The common assumption is that the feedback will push us into some type of tipping point from where there is no return. It just doesn't jive with history obviously. The feedback appears to be a damping mechanism and for an analogy not an unstable electrical circuit from which a point of no return has been reached due to a bit of feedback. It sounds ridiculous at the most basic level to me.

I think it's ignorant to base new carbon emission laws based on very suspect computer simulations of earth's climate, I have no problem with "climate research" in itself but am developing a huge problem with political organizations and think tanks taking control of the "science" to carry out an agenda that has nothing to do with reducing emmisions. That in itself should prove something?
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 11:52:42

pablonite wrote: It sounds ridiculous at the most basic level to me.



I've been reading about Galileo's efforts to promote acceptance of the Sun-centered solar system*, which sounded ridiculous at the most basic level to most people, who could clearly observe that the Earth stood still while the Sun traveled around it.

"Galileo's Daughter" by Dava Sobel
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby Lore » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 11:59:37

Most people wouldn't doubt weather models telling them to get out of the path of a hurricane, or models that show a high percentage of people will fall victim to disease if they continue to smoke. Just because all of these models cannot pin-point exactly where and exactly who will be effected doesn't make them suspect.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 12:09:23

pablonite wrote:The equations being used for feedback loops and the data being pushed through them is highly suspect.


The Arctic can't melt any faster.

pablonite wrote:The common assumption is that the feedback will push us into some type of tipping point from where there is no return. It just doesn't jive with history obviously.


First, there is nothing common about this assumption.

I'd love to see a Leno Question on 'What is a Feedback Loop.'

"A free coupon for Fruit Loops?" :twisted: :twisted: 8O 8O

And yes, we have passed the TP. An ice free Arctic, and an
out of control melting of Greenland in 2013 will show
everyone who still has electricity.

pablonite wrote:I think it's ignorant to base new carbon emission laws based on very suspect computer simulations of earth's climate, I have no problem with "climate research" in itself but am developing a huge problem with political organizations and think tanks taking control of the "science" to carry out an agenda that has nothing to do with reducing emmisions. That in itself should prove something?


Don't worry. XOM thanx to SCOTUS just got control
of DC. Nothing will be done. Collapse now is the only hope.
Lore wrote:Just because all of these models cannot pin-point exactly where and exactly who will be effected doesn't make them suspect.


Evacuate the Entire US Coastline now. Ten Klicks inland.

50% of our pop threatened.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 13:35:09

mcgowanjm wrote:Evacuate the Entire US Coastline now.



But there's so much money to be made in coastal development! 8O
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 13:44:54

Ludi wrote:
mcgowanjm wrote:Evacuate the Entire US Coastline now.
But there's so much money to be made in coastal development! 8O
Exactly. But think how much development there will be with a brand new coastline. This used to be a casino but now we fish the reef here. :twisted: :roll:
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby pablonite » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 17:57:20

Who exactly is R K Pachauri anyway besides the head of the IPCC?
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2010/ ... other.html

...A panel of Indian scientists to study the Himalayan glacier melting in an exhaustive study of the region, after analyzing 150 years of data by the Geological Survey of India from 25 Himalayan glaciers, concluded that while Himalayan glaciers had long been retreating, there was no acceleration of the trend and nothing to suggest that the glaciers would vanish.

When this panel's report was released in November 2009, the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) head, R K Pachauri, dismissed it as "voodoo science" and called the findings "school science". Accusing Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh of arrogance, Pachauri said that such skeptical claims were reminiscent of "climate change deniers".


Proof of massive personal conflicts of interest of the UN Climate Change chief, Dr Rajendra Pachauri, the co-winner of the Nobel Peace prize for advocating the bogus theory of global warming dangers, has emerged...

...More remarkable, given the power he has is the fact that Rajenda Pachauri is presented as a scientist, even once described by the BBC as “the world’s top climate scientist.” But he is a former railway engineer with a PhD in economics. He has no professional qualifications in climate science. His is a political appointment by the international interests who hope to use Global Warming hysteria to create a huge new trillion dollar carbon trade scheme...

...Pachauri has a worldwide portfolio of business interests with bodies which have been investing billions of dollars in organisations dependent on the IPCC’s policy recommendations, including in addition to the named banks, oil and energy companies and investment funds invested in ‘carbon trading’, the fastest-growing commodity market in the world, estimated soon to be worth trillions of dollars a year...

...In 2008 Pachauri became an adviser on renewable and sustainable energy to the Rockefeller Foundation. He joined the board of the Nordic Glitnir Bank, as it launched its Sustainable Future Fund, looking to raise £4 billion. He became chairman of the Indochina Sustainable Infrastructure Fund, who plan to raise £100 billion. As well Pachauri is a director of the International Risk Governance Council in Geneva, set up by EDF and E.On, two of Europe’s largest electricity firms. And in 2009 Pachauri joined the New York investment fund Pegasus as a ‘strategic adviser’, and was made chairman of the advisory board to the Asian Development Bank, which funds projects tied to CDM trading, and whose CEO warned that failure to agree a treaty at Copenhagen would lead to a collapse of the trillion dollar proposed carbon market


A criminal !
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 18:19:15

If a picture tells 1,000 words, I guess 100 photos tell 100,000 words.

100 summer days in Glacier National Park

I'm really impressed by Chris Peterson's PhotoShop skills. Amazing how Chris was able to perfectly remove the glaciers from the background. It really looks like the glaciers are all but gone. Thank you Chris for perpetuating the biggest hoax of all.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby pablonite » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 18:20:02

mcgowanjm wrote:First, there is nothing common about this assumption.

I'd love to see a Leno Question on 'What is a Feedback Loop.'


This is the basic model you seem to be working with...correct me if i am wrong...
Image
We have burned so much fossil fuel that it has kicked up enough CO2 into the atmosphere to start the vicious cycle of positive feedback as illustrated above which we can verify with the data.

At what point do you suspect the positive feedback diminishes? When the oceans evaporate into the atmosphere and we are left with a hard boiling bed of rock to live on? Or sometime before that?

If this were true do you think it best to start a global carbon trading scheme or actually prepare for climate change?
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby pablonite » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 18:27:43

VMarcHart wrote:If a picture tells 1,000 words, I guess 100 photos tell 100,000 words.

100 summer days in Glacier National Park

I'm really impressed by Chris Peterson's PhotoShop skills. Amazing how Chris was able to perfectly remove the glaciers from the background. It really looks like the glaciers are all but gone. Thank you Chris for perpetuating the biggest hoax of all.


From the post before...
A panel of Indian scientists to study the Himalayan glacier melting in an exhaustive study of the region, after analyzing 150 years of data by the Geological Survey of India from 25 Himalayan glaciers, concluded that while Himalayan glaciers had long been retreating, there was no acceleration of the trend and nothing to suggest that the glaciers would vanish.


OK. THIS is science. We agree the climate changes and always has. We might be in a very gradual warming phase according to the "data" which needs to be taken for what it is - prone to some very large tolerances when used in any calculation.

There are about 100,000 glaciers in the world, you have your favourite already? Nice pics !
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 18:52:12

pablonite wrote:We agree the climate changes and always has. We might be in a very gradual warming phase according to the "data" which needs to be taken for what it is - prone to some very large tolerances when used in any calculation.
That's a major departure from your early posts. I can only imagine you're running out of Kool-Aid. Good for you!
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby pablonite » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 21:23:00

Lore wrote:Most people wouldn't doubt weather models telling them to get out of the path of a hurricane, or models that show a high percentage of people will fall victim to disease if they continue to smoke.

Seeing a hurricane forming and predicting the path is getting basic for even a ten year old if he gets hold of weather satellite images.

Statistics are used to distort reality all of the time. People don't drop dead from smoking in their 20's, skin cancer and rectal cancer are more common because that is the nature of rapid cell division - the possibility of mutations. Can you think of a better example of computer modelling of future scenarios as complicated as climate change are used to form major global policy? :lol:

Besides from telling everyone to quit smoking, do you not also tell everyone not to confuse weather with climate? You're confused again.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 22:24:59

Stars increase in energy output as they age. As a hueristic during the Phanerozoic the figure of about 1% per 100 million years is given for the sun. During the Ordovician the sun would have been in the region of 4-4.5% less energetic


are commonly available and have been for a long time. If you find it odd that CO2 was at 3000ppm during the Ordovician, and yet the planet was glaciated, don't you think you ought to try to find out why that might have been the case?
Anyone thinking seriously about this issue should understand such a basic concept as increasing solar output over time, in fact you wouldn't even need to leave PO.com to know about it.
As I wrote a few months back: " Only 100 million years ago 1000 ppm was required for the Earth not to be in a cool period, and 500 ppm was probably the threshold for full glaciations, and during the oft-cited Ordovician, CO2 needed to above 3000 ppm just to avoid an ice age".


Ok, lets look at the holes in this argument. If the suns output is gradually increasing through time and the "balancing theory" you propose is working then there should be a continuous drop of CO2 during periods of relatively stable temperatures. You see this in a gross sense in the early Palaeozoic with CO2 dropping overall from 6000 ppm to around 3000 ppm . The devil, however, is in the details, In the case I mention of the Ordovician during early Ordovician the earth was certainly in a greenhouse, temperatures were around 25 C and CO2 was near 4000 ppm, at the end of the Ordovician temperatures drop to somewhere around where they are today and CO2 ....is still at 4000 ppm (didn't do a very good job of staving off a glaciation did it?). The question is then if we have this balance between increasing solar output and CO2 why did temperature suddenly drop.......and of course you'll say "well everyone knows CO2 and the sun aren't the only thing that controls climate" and that is my point exactly. To suggest there is a CO2 "tipping point" you have to have an airtight model, which we do not have. Further to this idea of a balance between solar output and CO2 lets look at the late Carboniferous to early Permian....CO2 and temperature were pretty close to where they are now....but you are saying solar output has steadily increased since then....that would be 300 hundred million years of increase, yet the temperature and CO2 is the same now. With increasing solar output should not temperatures be much higher now? And to that end the IPCC tells us that the contribution from solar (TSI) is miniscule at current. So if its been steadily increasing through the Palaeozoic given your theory it would have had negligible influence on climate back in the Palaeozoic? If that were the case it seems this argument about CO2 balancing increasing solar output is rather far reaching.
That being said it is apparent you are referring to the work of Dana Royer who has published a number of papers on his view that there is a tight link between CO2 and temperature in the Phanerozoic. Shaviv and others subsequently argued his calculations were incorrect and that the sensitivity of temperature and CO2 seems to be quite small.
http://www.phys.huji.ac.il/~shaviv/ClimateDebate/RoyerReply.pdf
As well Royer recently has noted that there are problems with the link between CO2 and temperature:
However, some intervals in Earth's past fail to show any consistent relationship. One conspicuous example is the Miocene (23.0–5.3 Myr ago), an Epoch where multiple advances of the Antarctic ice sheet are juxtaposed with a period of global warmth ≈15 Myr ago. Most CO2 records during this period are low [<300 ppm by volume (ppmv)]and do not covary with temperature ). These records imply that other radiative forcings such as changes in paleogeography or meridional heat transport were disproportionately more important than CO2 at this time.

When you know the result you want it isn't too difficult to come up with a model. Do you actually know what the balance between CO2 and temperature was in the Ordovician or for that matter now? Of course not simply because it is a multivariate problem where the actual forcings, feedbacks are not understood for the variables known and there is always the variables which are unknown. If the models couldn't have predicted the disconnect in CO2 and temperature over the past decade or so how can you use them to predict what the balance was back in the Ordovican?
And by the way....noone actually knows what caused the glaciation at the end Ordovican, there are theories the best being gradual drift of amalgamated continents over the southern pole, transgression followed by isolation and gradual freezing.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby thuja » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 22:36:20

Why is there a persistent group of conservatives who deny global warming and AGW?

Because of fear.

They believe if they agree to the science, it will mean horrific regulations and a greater global movement towards socialism, taxation and control over most aspects of their lives.

But instead of arguing with policy prescriptions, they try to argue with the science...which is crazy.

They would rather not deal with the fact that man is having an overwhelming impact on the planet in order to shield themsleves from the unpleasantness of having to deal with it, curb consumption, change their lifestyle.

So we wait- we wait for increasingly horrific data to confirm the scientists...further melting, ice free arctic summers, continent wide droughts, increasing hurricaines, rising sea levels...and the associated destruction of habitat, resource conflicts, wars and genocides related to Global Warming.

To them it will always be a natural cycle- even when we're boiling in global 6 degree warmer weather and civilization has crumbled. As long as they can blame scientific fact on a conspiracy that boggles the imagination, and stubbornly hold to an eroded point of view.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 22:41:19

rockdoc123 wrote:Ok, lets look at the holes in this argument. If the suns output is gradually increasing through time
Its not my theory. It is pretty bog standard astrophysics. Its a consaquence of a star turning hydrogen into helium.


Do you have an ounce of evidence that stars do not produce more energy as they age?

Are you stating (for the record) that you have never heard this theory.

Are you stating clearly during the nuclear combustion of hydrogen into helium in the cores of stars, the core does not increase in density?

Edited for grammer.
Last edited by dorlomin on Sun 24 Jan 2010, 10:44:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sun 24 Jan 2010, 10:37:10

pablonite wrote:Seeing a hurricane forming and predicting the path is getting basic for even a ten year old if he gets hold of weather satellite images.
And if that same 10-year old gets a hold of satellite images of a given glacier, and the photos show the glacier getting smaller and smaller, wouldn't the 10-year old conclude the glacier will be gone sooner or later?

I can't understand why believe that nearly every statistic and image out there are manipulated propaganda to advance a political cause. Not that politicians don't do that, but if a 10-year old can understand the path of a hurricane, anyone should understand the trend of a given glacier.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sun 24 Jan 2010, 10:49:16

thuja wrote:...man is having an overwhelming impact on the planet...

To [deniers] it will always be a natural cycle...
My take is that man, evolved, born and grown on this planet, is as natural as bees and bears. Man, however, is creating its own cycle and man is not really understanding where this cycle will take him. In other words, man is making its own bed. And that is the natural cycle of life. All creatures natural outgrow their environments and die. It's been like that for millions of years.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 24 Jan 2010, 11:11:09

VMarcHart wrote:All creatures natural outgrow their environments and die. It's been like that for millions of years.



Are you saying that extinction is caused by creatures "outgrowing their environments"? Can you point to other species which have gone extinct by "outgrowing their environments"?

Thanks.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sun 24 Jan 2010, 11:38:47

Ludi wrote:Are you saying that extinction is caused by creatures "outgrowing their environments"?
No, that's not what I'm saying. Organisms come and go all the time. Nothing new there. Some hunted down, some by sudden death, some by outgrowing its environment, what have you. It's all natural.

Man is nowhere near extinction, but man is the biggest cause of its own perils. All naturally.
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Re: IPCC: United Nations' blunder on glaciers exposed

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 24 Jan 2010, 11:42:48

Thanks for clarifying. I guess I'm still not sure what organisms have gone extinct by "outgrowing their environment." Can you give some examples? Thanks.
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