[Newfie]

The Keys bridge over the Baltimore Harbor has been collapsed by a containership. All news is on the 20 or so poor souls killed in the event.

In the next few days the news will move to the economic impact on both ground and sea transport. There will be a vehicular, rail, and sea component to this.

Seaborn Effects: Baltimore is a major port and the largest port for vehicles. The channel now has the main span of the bridge blocking it. 10 ships are caught in Baltimore Harbor and just 12 hours after the event 10 more ships had to seek emergency anchorage inside the Chesapeake Bay. Many of the anchorage locations are typically filled with ships awaiting dockage or lightering. The few spare spots will be occupied shortly. Additional shipping will need to loiter off shore while being diverted to alternative ports, most of which are already operating at near 100% capacity. There will be a LOT of pressure to clear that channel as soon as possible. 2 - 3 months???

Railway effects: This port moves a lot of its cargo by rail, all of this traffic will have to follow the seaborn redirection and the off loading will have to be coordinated with already stressed rail traffic. This requires the channel to be cleared.

Roadway effects: If you recall last year there was a fire underneath I95 in Philadelphia and the projected economic cost was great enough to get White House participation in the repair. All stops were pulled out a local contractor was given incentive to come up with a temporary repair to restore traffic. They backfilled with recycled glass as that was the handiest and cheapest appropriate fill available. But that is only a temp fix, repair will take several years. This bridge is far bigger problem, no temporary fix.

I95 and in Philly is paralleled by I295 and the NJTNPK in NJ, so alternative truck routes already existed. In Baltimore I695 is an alternative truck route to either going through Baltimore or around on a ring highway, already snarled. On the plus side there will be LESS truck traffic because of the channel blockage, until that channel is cleared. But alternative routes are less attractive than the I95 scenario. I suspect that the longer term impact on roadway traffic will be at least somewhat worse than the Philly scenario.

The bridge replacement, well God only knows. I can not imagine a replacement in kind in less than 2 years. Perhaps 5? Do you replace the bridge in kind using the old plans? It is doubtful those plans meet modern standards. And there will be a lot of pressure to build a higher capacity bridge that is less vulnerable. That argues for a totally new design. It would not be shocking if one exists or is in progress. But still, 5 years would be a fast build.

There are already plans for an additional crossing lower on the Chesapeake to supplement the Back Bay Bridge. Back Bay is actually 2 parallel spans, heavily used. And the connectors are pretty much surface roads. Another parallel span will require considerable new interstate connections. But these are “plans”, as far as I know they are a long way from even land acquisition.

And remember, all of this falls on the STATE of Maryland. The highways are built and maintained by the state, the Feds provided money and oversight.

This is gonna be a interesting exercise. The benefit is it will be exercise our ability to recover from infrastructure failure no matter the cause; attack, accident, or natural events (e.g. earthquake).

[theluckycountry]

I watched that video and wondered why they didn't have bright flashing red lights on buoys floating before the pylons like they had on top of the bridge to alert planes? No bridges have these as far as I know? Do they simply trust ships to be infallible? Considering the number of bridges over harbors I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often. Just one more repair job to add to the long long list I suppose

bobthepanda 1 hour ago | root | parent | next [–]
the modern practice is layers of defense; in addition to building a bridge that doesn't fail at a single point of failure, you also generally design what's around a bridge pier to stop or at least slow down the ship (by, say, running aground onto a bed of rocks around a pier) For a bridge such defenses are called dolphins.

Sounds like an added expense.

[AgentR11]

Pay attention to the ship losing power, off and on a couple times; they lost the ability to steer, and once they had power back, it was too late. They didn't run into it because of visibility or lighting.

[Newfie]

Yes. It amazed me that the ship steering had no back up power. But it seems that is normal.

Naval ships do have alternate ways to steer, but that does not mean they have alternate power to the Rudder.

I find it all very odd.

[yellowcanoe]

Yes. It amazed me that the ship steering had no back up power. But it seems that is normal.

Naval ships do have alternate ways to steer, but that does not mean they have alternate power to the Rudder.

I find it all very odd.

I pulled up the story of the Amoco Cadiz an Ultra Large Crude Carrier that sank on the French coast spilling its entire oil cargo. My recollection was that it had only one engine that had failed leaving it adrift. It did indeed only have one engine which illustrated the lengths that the industry was going to to minimize construction and operating costs. However it wasn't engine failure that led to the loss of the ship -- it was the rudder getting locked hard to port that put the ship at peril. A salvage tug did reach the vessel but it simply didn't have enough power to pull such a large vessel away from the coast. The owner of the ship had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for the cleanup and fines so you have to wonder if they really were ahead designing entirely for efficiency and not for redundancy.

[careinke]

I was surprised the bridge workers stayed on the Bridge. If they had enough time to block off traffic, why didn't the work crews have enough time to leave? I'm saying this with a Son who works on bridges as a Cement Mason.

Peace

[theluckycountry]

It should take them about a week to clear that wreckage from the channel with the gear they have these days, wrap a chain around it and use tugs to pull it clear, it's only steel lattice and busted up concrete. But they will drag it out for sure and cripple the economy up there. Nothing gets done in a hurry these days.

[careinke]

It should take them about a week to clear that wreckage from the channel with the gear they have these days, wrap a chain around it and use tugs to pull it clear, it's only steel lattice and busted up concrete. But they will drag it out for sure and cripple the economy up there. Nothing gets done in a hurry these days.

They put the military on it. You will be surprised how fast the channel is cleared.

Peace

[theluckycountry]

They put the military on it. You will be surprised how fast the channel is cleared.

Peace

I went searching for some info and came up here instead. Enjoy

https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/com ... _the_ride/

[Newfie]

I was surprised the bridge workers stayed on the Bridge. If they had enough time to block off traffic, why didn't the work crews have enough time to leave? I'm saying this with a Son who works on bridges as a Cement Mason.

Peace

As I understand it the workers were out on the bridge. There were cops at the entrance controlling traffic. The cops only had to block the lanes. The workers had to get off. There may have been no communication with the workers or that was through a different dispatcher. The workers may have been contractors with no direct comms.

[Newfie]

It should take them about a week to clear that wreckage from the channel with the gear they have these days, wrap a chain around it and use tugs to pull it clear, it's only steel lattice and busted up concrete. But they will drag it out for sure and cripple the economy up there. Nothing gets done in a hurry these days.

They put the military on it. You will be surprised how fast the channel is cleared.

Peace

Corps of Engineers, not exactly military.

I just read they are going g ro clear one of the smaller orthe4n spans first to open aimjted depth channel so as to be able to move equipment around the blockage. Makes sense.

Supposedly first steel was removed today, Saturday.

I really want to see bow they get that ship out. 2 spans are dropped across its bow.

Who is gonna volunteer to go out there with a torch to cut that last piece of connecting steel?

When the steel is cut that will shift weight on the ship.

It would be a gutsy move but maybe they will use explosives to cut the steel on BOTH sides at the same time. That way no one is on the structure when it breaks free AND the ship will stay relatively balanced.

These ships can not tolerate much more than a 15⁰ list before the become unstable and roll. THAT would be a real ugly situation. Remember that car carrier that rolled down in Georgi? That took a couple of years to clear out. They had to invent and build a saw to cut into slabs they could lift and tow to a Sal ave yard in Louisiana. The "saw" was a chain with big links (4'?) that was coated with diamonds.

Obviously I have no idea what they would do but it is an interesting problem to contemplate. I would like to sit in on some of the engineering meetings.

[theluckycountry]

Nothing gets done in a hurry these days.

They put the military on it. You will be surprised how fast the channel is cleared.

Peace

The salvage operation may not begin as seamlessly as government officials hoped. As Captain John Konrad, CEO of gCaptain, a website specializing in tracking the shipping industry, states, the 984-foot Singapore-flagged container ship Dali is apparently "sitting atop a high-pressure underwater gas line."

"Sources at ICS reports ship salvage effort will likely be delayed while line is surveyed and additional risk can be assessed,"

Sources say...

[Newfie]

The gas line has been depressurized.

But that would be an interesting way to move the ship. LOL.

I would bet some wise acre suggested it.

[theluckycountry]

Yes the ship is the key to it all. I can't see this being resolved quickly. But that's just a feeling, based on how everything is dragged out these day. And when it's done, then a new bridge, that will be a big job.

[careinke]

It should take them about a week to clear that wreckage from the channel with the gear they have these days, wrap a chain around it and use tugs to pull it clear, it's only steel lattice and busted up concrete. But they will drag it out for sure and cripple the economy up there. Nothing gets done in a hurry these days.

They put the military on it. You will be surprised how fast the channel is cleared.

Peace

Corps of Engineers, not exactly military.

I was under the impression the Huge Crain ship belonged to the Navy. My understanding is it was built in the 60's to covertly recover a Russian Sub that was in extremely deep water. Now I have to remember where I got that info.

Peace

[Newfie]

I titled this thread Infrastructure Vulnerability because I think there is a bigger story here than just this one incident.

If you remember back after 911 Obama made a big deal of shoveling money into the economy with Shovel Ready jobs. There was a lot of dough spent on silly projects that was simply wasted, except it paid my salary for some years.

But there were also some good things that happened. For example the food gates which had been installed in the train tunnels across the Budson I. WWII had been left go. These were eventually returned to operational condition, at least that was the plan. But why were they ever left to go to ruin in the first place? They were installed because of a perceived threat, and that threat never went away. But we did forget about it.

THEORETICALLY when doing an engineering job one needs to do a series of risk analysis assessments. THEORETICALLY these assessments are done professionally and seriously AND they are maintained. That is any change to the system requires a fresh look at the assessment to see if it is still valid.

My experience is limited to FRA and FTA governed infrastructure. Risk Assessments are not always mandated, but sometimes other measures are in force that are adequate.

Even when Ris Analysis is mandated it is often not taken seriously, performed in a formal/professional manner, or updated when the situation changes. But Operating Principals are generally not included in the risk analysis and can be quite horrid. The rules are not the same for FRA and FTA systems and since FTA systems are managed on a state by state basis there can be significant enforcement differences. In practice these differences are between "not much" and "none".

An aprophal story to show the extent of neglect. I once observed an underground train station fire alarm going off one morning. It was still going off 2 days later. The reason. I was in that town was because I was the design engineer on a fire alarm system on this transit system and I was to be meeting g with the City Fire Chief to certify acceptance of the system in a different area. So I had a fair clue of what was supposed to be happening.

To have durable infrastructure you need to 1) understand how it will be used 2) design it to meet that use 3) retain durable records of the design decisions 4) revalidate every time there is a hange to the system 5) maintain the system within design parameters.

Given what I have read the Key Bridge failed on various elements. First the bridge concept was "fracture critical" (or some such designation, which means something like it has single points of failure that can cause the structure to collapse catastrophically. That was probably a poor choice for a bridge that was expected to see heavy ship traffic. The bridge did have collision protection but that was not reevaluated when bigger ships started using the bridge. So it's use changed but the risk assessment was not updated, perhaps because that analysis was used once and forgotten, no durable record of the design decisions. How common is this situation?

In my experience I would see this kind of process failure frequently. Outside the train signaling system there was no risk assessment. Designs evolved on Owner whimsy and perceived needs. The Owner wanted a good job but did not have systemic processes for requiring or evaluating risk. There was no retention of the decision process. And maintenence was all over the place influenced by unions, graft, funding constraints, lack of professionalism, and a host of other factors. Suffice it to say I stop and look at railroad crossings.

I believe the air industry is quite a different story, much better. So it is not beyond human ability to do better. And perhaps my experience just happened to stumble upon a particularly bad example. If, however, my experience is typical I would expect to see more and more infrastructure failures as our current systems age and are stressed for capacity and upkeep.

[Newfie]

Carinke

Perhaps you are thinking of the Glomar Explorer?

Covert operation to recover a Russian sub sunk in the Pacific. Howard Hughes I think?

Dude, we are dating ourselves.

[ralfy]

The same military that hires contractors who in turn have to go through so much paperwork they end up charging thousands of dollars to install a toilet.

[Newfie]

This will be multiple contracts. The immediate push is to get the channel clear. And that is what you are seeing now.

Then you will have demolition of the standing spans and construction of a new bridge. Likely that will be a complelty new design to get away from this fault critical failure mode.

I would be shocked to see this replace in 3 years. More like 5.

[theluckycountry]

Baltimore Bridge Collapse: New Underwater 3D Images Show "Sheer Magnitude" Of Salvage Operation Ahead

Local, state, or federal officials have yet to offer a timeline for salvage crews to completely remove the collapsed bridge from the, bLAH bLAH bLAH. Blah Blah, Blah blah...

The complexity of this salvage operation suggests the main shipping channel will be closed for weeks if not months. ...On Monday evening, US Coast Guard Rear Admiral Shannon Gilreath told reporters that salvage operations underneath the water are even more complicated than initially imagined:

"These girders are essentially tangled together, intertwined, making it very difficult to figure out where you need to potentially cut so that we can make that into more manageable sizes to lift them from the water."

At the same press conference, Governor Wes Moore said: "We're talking about something that is almost the size of the Statue of Liberty ... and the scale of this project, to be clear, is enormous. And even the smallest (tasks) are huge."

https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/t ... ll-vessels

Yeah we get it. You're not just going to try and drag the mess out of the channel and post buoys over it like you do with every other underwater obstruction. You want to drag the 'mission' out, Justify your existence and get some practice with all your cool underwater tech. If the private sector was in control of this...

They should have given the job to these crews