[vtsnowedin]

The economics of EVs today are not all that good. But times will change and the economics will change with the times. When the numbers get right EVs will become the thing to buy and use. If you can't adapt to the reality of your times you will suffer the fate of the guys that thought that buggy whips were the perpetual source of income.

[kublikhan]

Have you ever gone camping with pure city folks: hystertical and very sad at the same time. This thread brings to mind how some folks act as if life as they know it ends because their Internet goes down for 24 hours.

Did you see this one: airplane Wi-Fi

[ROCKMAN]

k - No. Mucho thanks...big CK fan. Wonder how some folks would react if they had to wipe their ass with newspaper? As a kid more then once I had to forage newspaper from neighbor's trash cans. Just seemed semi normal when I was a kid.

[vtsnowedin]

Why would a curbside charger be any more difficult then a parking meter? Plug in and swipe your debit card and direct paid from your account. A nice little revenue raiser for cities that put them in.
As to building solar panels along the roadside I'd skip the fancy drive on surfaces or roofing and just do standard installations. Cost at present about $1.00 per installed watt. An acre of panels would cost about $750,000 and put out about 740KW of DC power.

[ROCKMAN]

vt - A distant memory: some northern city installed outlets on some of their parking meters so folks could plug in their block heaters on very cold days.

[vtsnowedin]

vt - A distant memory: some northern city installed outlets on some of their parking meters so folks could plug in their block heaters on very cold days.

I believe that is Anchorage Alaska. I don't know as they still need them with modern oil and computerized ignition and fuel injection.

[ROCKMAN]

vt - Totally unrelated to the thread. But reminds me of a favorite story. Drilling horizontal wells during a Wyoming winter for ExxonMobil many moons ago. Cheap ass XOM had only an unheated porto-potty for me and the rig hands. And an asshole XOM engineer that wouldn't let us use the guest toilet in his trailer office even on very bad nights. At one point it hit -34F with a windchill at -51F. But at night when the engineer was sleeping a drill hand would unplug his block heater and run the line to a space heater in the head. And every morning the engineer would stomp around bitching about the trouble he had starting his truck.

It was always nice to start those bitter mornings off with a smile. LOL.

[vtsnowedin]

vt - Totally unrelated to the thread. But reminds me of a favorite story. Drilling horizontal wells during a Wyoming winter for ExxonMobil many moons ago. Cheap ass XOM had only an unheated porto-potty for me and the rig hands. And an asshole XOM engineer that wouldn't let us use the guest toilet in his trailer office even on very bad nights. At one point it hit -34F with a windchill at -51F. But at night when the engineer was sleeping a drill hand would unplug his block heater and run the line to a space heater in the head. And every morning the engineer would stomp around bitching about the trouble he had starting his truck.

It was always nice to start those bitter mornings off with a smile. LOL.

Payback is a bitch in a black dress. LOL.

[Newfie]

Why would a curbside charger be any more difficult then a parking meter? Plug in and swipe your debit card and direct paid from your account. A nice little revenue raiser for cities that put them in.
As to building solar panels along the roadside I'd skip the fancy drive on surfaces or roofing and just do standard installations. Cost at present about $1.00 per installed watt. An acre of panels would cost about $750,000 and put out about 740KW of DC power.

Well the difference is Power distribution. Parking meters are mechanical or solar. For charging stations you have to run daily heavy power cables. That means chopping up the sidewalk and running power feeders back from distribution points.

Rough Order of Magnitude guesstimate is $150/ft. Probably more, just for distribution. Then there is the feeder infrastructure, ROM about equal to sum of distribution. Then there is the cost of the charging stations and replacing the existing meters. SWAG $1,000/ea or about $50/foot.

So all in on the order of $350/lf of curb. $125,000/block @350 feet.

Double or triple that for big cities like Philly, NYC, Chicago.

[vtsnowedin]

Why would a curbside charger be any more difficult then a parking meter? Plug in and swipe your debit card and direct paid from your account. A nice little revenue raiser for cities that put them in.
As to building solar panels along the roadside I'd skip the fancy drive on surfaces or roofing and just do standard installations. Cost at present about $1.00 per installed watt. An acre of panels would cost about $750,000 and put out about 740KW of DC power.

Well the difference is POWs distribution. Parking meters are mechanical or solar. For charging stations you have to run daily heavy power cables. That means chopping up the sidewalk and running power feeders back from distribution points.

Rough Order of Magnitude guesstimate is $150/ft. Probably more, just for distribution. Then there is the feeder infrastructure, ROM about equal to sum of distribution.

For $150 a foot you can install eight inch ductile iron water main six feet deep and restore the surface.
UFB 6/3 direct burial copper electric cable sells foe $1.88 a foot and the NH DOT average weighted price for 2 inch steel conduit installed is $18.89 a foot based on 40 bids.
So if you were doing nose in parking with ten foot wide spaces the wire installation would be about $210 per space and parallel curb side parking about $450 per space. Lead in from the meter and passing driveways and fire plugs would add on of course but I think it is certainly doable and can be fully paid for by the users once the plug in cars exist.

[Tanada]

A couple years ago there was a scandal in Detroit because someone was electrocuted by a street light. The city workers had not replaced the base cover securely enough and someone removed it so they could access the wiring and steal power. At some point between the original hook up and the death the illegal power tap was functioning but either ignored or unnoticed. If you set up power taps for every parking space, or even many spaces how long before thieves manage to die and have their families suing the city?

[vtsnowedin]

A couple years ago there was a scandal in Detroit because someone was electrocuted by a street light. The city workers had not replaced the base cover securely enough and someone removed it so they could access the wiring and steal power. At some point between the original hook up and the death the illegal power tap was functioning but either ignored or unnoticed. If you set up power taps for every parking space, or even many spaces how long before thieves manage to die and have their families suing the city?

That is why you install wire rated for direct burial inside steel conduit. Nothing is ever totally fool proof as complete fools can be vary ingenious and hard working at the job of killing themselves. Build the chargers and reform our legal system so the fools families can't win.

[ROCKMAN]

vt - Maybe they could set up a special catergory of Darwin Awards for electricity thieves.

[vtsnowedin]

vt - Maybe they could set up a special catergory of Darwin Awards for electricity thieves.

And copper thieves.

[Newfie]

VT,
Your prices are new construction. Your not used to working in prebuilt dense urban environments. I understand DOT unit pricing, doesn't work in this situation. Bid that way and you will loose your shirt. You worked DOT side right? Try working the contractor side.

What's your PLF price for saw cutting and restoration of 3"'sidewalk. In some areas we were restricted to between 6pm and 10pm? After business's shut down, before apartment dwellers went to bed. 4 hour work day. Just because of noise.

[vtsnowedin]

VT,
Your prices are new construction. Your not used to working in prebuilt dense urban environments. I understand DOT unit pricing, doesn't work in this situation.

Almost all New Hampshire construction is actually reconstruction and where conduits are being installed is usually an urban intersection where traffic must be maintained at all times. Such things as directional drilling and night work are employed routinely. I'll take my numbers over yours.

[Newfie]

Right, exactly. Vermont is not Philly. No chance of directional boring. All cut and cover. Boonies.

Vermont, largest city Burlington. 43,000 population

PA, largest city Philadelohia. 1,533,000. 35 times the size.

Hell your whole STATE population is less than half the size of Philadelphia.

I've had the opposite experience of over estimating when going from a large NE perspective to a SE area. Costs can be much different.

[vtsnowedin]

Right, exactly. Vermont is not Philly. No chance of directional boring. All cut and cover. Boonies.

Vermont, largest city Burlington. 43,000 population

PA, largest city Philadelohia. 1,533,000. 35 times the size.

Hell your whole STATE population is less than half the size of Philadelphia.

I've had the opposite experience of over estimating when going from a large NE perspective to a SE area. Costs can be much different.

While I have always lived in Vermont most of my construction experience has been in New Hampshire. I worked as a construction inspector for the DOT for thirty years before retiring from them and working for consulting firms for the last ten years. Large cities like Philly have a lot of people that don't own or need cars so thy would be the last place I'd be looking to retrofit chargers. Instead I'd be adding them wherever streets were being rebuilt or new parking lots were being constructed. Where you already have the pavement and sidewalk torn up the addition of a wiring run is a cheap addition. Slipping it in between sidewalk and the front stoop of a Brownstone quite another. As it will take at least fifteen years to turn our fleet of cars from ICEs to electric we have plenty of time to start with the cheapest places first and leave the urban areas until sometime when they are being upgraded.