[AdamB]

Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

[careinke]

Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

I believe I called this the day it blew up. Most on this board thought it was Russia that committed this environmental crime. Just sayin

Peace

[Outcast_Searcher]

I would be upset about this if America were doing it to anyone but massive war criminals, Russia. Given their behavior, it seems more like another economic sanction. And of course, that sanction had direct repercussions on Europe. I wonder how many key European leaders were in agreement on that, given the likely short term economic outcome.

And I know, for the Russia apologists, Russia denies doing anything wrong. But does anyone without wildly skewed beliefs REALLY believe Russia has committed NO war crimes, given all the civilian structure bombings and civilian deaths? To me, just claiming all the global MSM is a conspiracy theory if they don't agree with YOUR version of "the truth" is car less credible than, say, Putin's version of "the truth", imperfect as the MSM is at times.

(And I know -- it's not like the US has no blood on their hands for Iraq, for example, though I don't think they were deliberately targeting civilians, but that over time civilian casualties were a statistical certainty, given all the US operations in Iraq.)

The interesting thing in this big war by proxy Ukraine clearly is, where should the lines be drawn? It seems pretty arbitrary to me. Tank type X fine. But not fighter jets, etc.

Also, this reminds me of the US blowing up a couple of Iranian oil platforms on Black Monday in 1987. I thought that was a classy way to go -- not killing anyone, but hurting Iran's oil production, given their behavior. (See "Operation Nimble Archer" as an easy way to search on this).

[careinke]

Also, this reminds me of the US blowing up a couple of Iranian oil platforms on Black Monday in 1987. I thought that was a classy way to go -- not killing anyone, but hurting Iran's oil production, given their behavior. (See "Operation Nimble Archer" as an easy way to search on this).

I was on the Arabian Sea in a FACP radar site during this incident. They began firing before the time ran out, but it could have been we knew everyone had evacuated the platform. At the time I thought and still do, it was pretty cool.

Peace

[Newfie]

Seymor Hersch

Apparently lost his marbles a couple of decades ago. Early in career he was really good, broke the Mai Lai story and others. He is riding in that reputation.

Apparently for the last 20 years or so his pieces and books have become more and more controversial with less and less authentication. He routinely writes articles and books with no, zero, nada, zilch identified resources. Basically he has completely discredited himself and his writing.

Don’t believe me? Why? Because I gave no references.

Thats my point.

[Newfie]

OK, point made.

“If the standard for being fired was being wrong on a story, I would have been fired long ago,” Hersh told the Progressive in 1998. That Hersh has continued to rise, rather than suffer professional admonishment for his perennial falsehoods, is a testament to the ideological usefulness of his deceits to the people who publish him and the people who praise him. The disgrace is one in which Hersh’s editors and legions of readers are also complicit, and will continue to be for as long as “the last great American reporter” goes on telling them the lies they want to hear.

Hersh’s enablers and fans don’t care if he repeatedly gets things wrong in his journalism, or makes outlandish allegations in public forums, as long as he continues to provide fodder for the narrative of America as a rapacious and blundering imperial power. As Warren Strobel, at the time a foreign correspondent for the McClatchy newspaper chain, told New York in 2005, “it’s worth it for him to be wrong.” From his lofty perch at the New Yorker, and with the demeanor of the grizzled, shoe-leather newspaperman straight out of the The Front Page, Hersh lends a patina of respectability to a variety of accounts that had previously existed on the conspiratorial fringe.

When one journalist calls out another, especially of great fame, you need your facts straight. That is what this guy did here. This is a piece from 2012, the situation has NOT improved.

https://www.commentary.org/articles/jam ... our-hersh/

[Plantagenet]

Most on this board thought it was Russia that committed this environmental crime. Just sayin
Peace

I always thought the Russian idea didn't make any sense. Why would Russian destroy billions of dollars worth of their own infrastructure.

I thought the most likely perpetrators were the US, the Brits or even the Poles, because they all had a clear motive to interrupt Germany's energy dependence on Russia and they all had the capability to do undersea demolition work in the Baltic Sea.

I find Seymour Hersh's news report that it was the US very believable, especially since a few officials in the Biden administration had already essentially admitted the Biden administration did it.


Sorry Germany......Joe Biden has put an end to your love affair with the Nordstream pipeline and Russian energy supplies......

Cheers!

[Newfie]

Plant,

Who exactly said what?

Here is an alternative viewpoint from an active duty military officer. Short video.

https://youtu.be/-FQ6h7jdJxU

[Plantagenet]

Plant,

Here is an alternative viewpoint from an active duty military officer. Short video.

https://youtu.be/-FQ6h7jdJxU

I don't agree with the video claim that the "balance of power" has shifted against the US.

IMHO the US and NATO are far stronger than Russia and Belarus.

And if there is a "shift" going on it is in favor of the US and NATO. Sweden and Finland....two significant independent military powers, have both applied to join NATO. This just adds another huge dollop of military strength to NATO.

Unfortunately, Biden has dithered and failed to approve and supply necessary military supplies to Ukraine . We are a year into the war and only now is the US approving longer range missiles and cannons. And don't get me started on airplanes.....Biden has not only failed to approve sending US planes to Ukraine, he has blocked other countries sending Ukraine weapons. For over a year now I've been saying the US should ship Ukraine A-10 Warthogs.......these planes were specifically designed to stop tank columns like the one the Russians are sending into Ukraine. The US used A-10s to decimate Iraq's army when we invaded Iraq with minimal loss of life. We've got hundreds of decommissioned A-10s sitting in the desert in Arizona. If Biden had half a brain he would have shipped a 100 of these to Ukraine BEFORE the initial Russian invasion and most likely it never wouldn't happened. And if he had 1/10th of a brain he'd ship them now. Better late than never. The A10s aren't even jets, for chrissakes. Biden could send them and not even violate his own stupid pledge not to send jets.


Ukraine needs A10 thunderbolt warthogs

Cheers!

[Newfie]

DAag nabbit, I somehow got the wrong link. I have no idea who that squawk r was or what his point was,. My apologies for wasting your time.

Below is the correct link, I verified it.
Anders Puck Neilson
Military analyst at the Royal Danish Defence College with a specialty in maritime operations and Russia. I also run the websites Krigskunst.dk and Romeosquared.eu that focus on defense issues and military analyses from a Danish perspective.


https://youtu.be/hk-0qJXyido

[careinke]

DAag nabbit, I somehow got the wrong link. I have no idea who that squawk r was or what his point was,. My apologies for wasting your time.

Below is the correct link, I verified it.
Anders Puck Neilson
Military analyst at the Royal Danish Defence College with a specialty in maritime operations and Russia. I also run the websites Krigskunst.dk and Romeosquared.eu that focus on defense issues and military analyses from a Danish perspective.


https://youtu.be/hk-0qJXyido

Interesting. I am aware of both Theory's he uses to show that Russia was the one who blew up the pipelines. I plan to watch more of his video's and check out his credentials. He does give a very good presentation. Still I think he is wrong on the pipelines.

That said, his second theory, is cause for concern, and only increases the chance that this could lead to Nuclear War.

I could take his same slides and argue what really happened was Biden brought the conflict directly into the "Attribution Threshold." So take a big old American Flag and put it in that slot.

Here are a few quick points to support my view.

1. Access to the pipelines would be very hard for the Russians. Remember there are a LOT of western surveillance assets in the area so the Russians would probably have been detected and eliminated. Also, I'm not sure you could do it with a pig, unless it was done before the Russians turned the spigot off. I defer to Rockman for his Opinion.

2. Sweden was wary enough they did not allow the U.S. to help with the investigation. Yet they have not, after four months, released any preliminary findings.

3. Anders implies the Russians are upset because there is still doubt that they did not do it. If that was true, why don't the Ruskies just claim it, similar to ISIS?

Thanks for the Link, it certainly, deserves further scrutiny. I did notice in the comments section, anyone who questioned him was immediately classified as a Russian BOT.

Peace

[Newfie]

Carinke;

I have since heard it reported that the PIG designer said it was impossible to be used because it relied upon gas flow for movement.

It has also been reported that there were some unidentified ships above the pipeline sometime before the blast. Not definitive. Russia has been investing in naval resources including ice breakers and subs, I think they have some subs developed explicitly for doing submerged “work”. This is where the fear of hybrid warfare comes in, that the Russians have a lot of capacity to attack infrastructure. Thinking about it this may provide a motive for the electric grid attacks. Russia is communicating their willingness to attack the civilian infrastructure that binds the West together. And perhaps that is what NordStream was, a shot across the bow. NordStream would not invoke NATO as destroying fiber optic cables, but would clearly demonstrate his willingness.

[Plantagenet]

Seymour Hersh just gave an interview to German media in which he was very critical of Joe Biden for blowing up the Nord Stream Pipeline

biden-willing-let-germans-freeze-blowing-pipeline-seymour-hersh-interview

Hersh said that by blowing up Nordstream Biden showed he didn't care about the Germans. He said Biden put the German economy at risk and would've let Germans freeze in the dark.


Seymour Harsh says...Scouts Honor---- Biden did it.....

Cheers!

[careinke]

Carinke;

I have since heard it reported that the PIG designer said it was impossible to be used because it relied upon gas flow for movement.

It has also been reported that there were some unidentified ships above the pipeline sometime before the blast. Not definitive. Russia has been investing in naval resources including ice breakers and subs, I think they have some subs developed explicitly for doing submerged “work”. This is where the fear of hybrid warfare comes in, that the Russians have a lot of capacity to attack infrastructure. Thinking about it this may provide a motive for the electric grid attacks. Russia is communicating their willingness to attack the civilian infrastructure that binds the West together. And perhaps that is what NordStream was, a shot across the bow. NordStream would not invoke NATO as destroying fiber optic cables, but would clearly demonstrate his willingness.

Here is a good 11 Minute video from "The Hill Rising" TV show discussing the explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atqw_zcoiBM&list=TLPQMTYwMjIwMjMmn4xc4fD0lw&index=5

I like Rising, the co-hosts are usually on different political spectrums, but their discussions are always open and they actually listen to each other. This show is the most balanced current events/political shows I have found.

BTW have you heard of the Anti War rally in DC this coming Sunday? Well now you have, it probably won't be covered on MSM.

Peace

[careinke]

Seymour Hersh just gave an interview to German media in which he was very critical of Joe Biden for blowing up the Nord Stream Pipeline

biden-willing-let-germans-freeze-blowing-pipeline-seymour-hersh-interview

Hersh said that by blowing up Nordstream Biden showed he didn't care about the Germans. He said Biden put the German economy at risk and would've let Germans freeze in the dark.


Seymour Harsh says...Scouts Honor---- Biden did it.....

Cheers!

You have a point as he only seems to have one source. We will see, but I'm leaning toward we did it.

Russia as requested an Emergency UN meeting to discuss the Issue. Maybe Putin will pound his shoe on the table.

Hey, Empires are great, until they collapse, we are just next.

Peace

[Newfie]

Carinke,

I did listen to that Hill video. I was not impressed by the arguments or their background knowledge.

Hersh was unable to get ANY reputable outlet to carry his story because it was totally unsubstantiated, based on a single unnamed source. So he released it on substack, self published.

We're this the first time one could perhaps give him some credence. However he has now cultivated a long history of outrageous unsubstantiated claims.

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/02/did ... -problems/

The theory that it was Russia operating out of Kaliningrad has far more credibility because they have a proximate naval base, have developed submersible with the capability, and have a painfully long history of destroying civil infrastructure to threaten populations. Putin also has demonstrated he is willing to sacrifice Russian assets to further his personal ego, dramatically in the form of human sacrifice. If he does not care about human life why should he care about a pipeline? Pipeline can not protest their loss like wives and mothers.

People keep trying to sustain out Putin's logic by applying their personal ruel set, asking "What would I do?" While that is grequently a good method it does not work with exceptional people, and Putin is an exception.

In his case it is best to ask "How has he performed before, what are his tactics, what are his goals."

According to David Satter, Yuri Felshtinsky, Alexander Litvinenko, Vladimir Pribylovsky and Boris Kagarlitsky, the bombings were a successful false flag operation coordinated by the Russian state security services to win public support for a new full-scale war in Chechnya and to bring Putin to power.[206][17][18][19][68][207][20][208][209] Some of them described the bombings as typical "active measures" practised by the KGB in the past. The war in Chechnya boosted Prime Minister and former FSB Director Vladimir Putin's popularity, and brought the pro-war Unity Party to the State Duma and Putin to the presidency within a few months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_a ... t_bombings

It makes far more sense to me, consistent with past and current practice, that Lutin would sacrifice a key asset to impress upon the West how far he was willing to go.

Neilsons most recent video is on Russias hybrid warfare and the Wests response. His opinion is that these events (cyber attacks, derailments, sabatoge, etc.) are taking place and that the West is ignoring them so that we do not have to respond.
https://youtu.be/EeP_ZZbBIl4

My Personal "Best Guess" is that if the investigators (Norway??) have info they are sitting on it so as to not inflame the situation. GUESS being the operative word there.

..............................
I am reading more and more analyst who seem to be converging on the idea that Putin desires an open conflict with NATO and that he is trying to provoke the same. For some reason it seems it is a game, neither side wants to be seen as being the initiator. Reminds me of Fort Sumpter at the opening of the US Civil war. We now have, on average, more than one Russian incursion flight per day which is met by US or NATO aircraft.

Try this, assume that Putin is living an insurance life, he has no more that 4 to 5 advisors, who were all selected for their loyalty not their ability, that Putin was trained in using fear and intimidation as weapons, that is afraid for his life. With that assumption set then ask yourself "If I were this person, what would I do?"

Since we are trading videos, here is an interesting one.

Trumps security advisor.

https://youtu.be/xLDgPV9NiGg

[Newfie]

Carinke,

Sorry, I got carried away with my last post. Too much coffee in the am I guess.

I take your point that there is no definitive answer and, unfortunately, we can NOT rule out US involvement in the NorStrwam strike.

I have different ideas and bias. Obviously.

I appreciate the back and forth, the discussion is not to "win" but to learn.
Sometimes I need to remind myself of that.

[Shaved Monkey]

It makes far more sense to me, consistent with past and current practice, that Lutin would sacrifice a key asset to impress upon the West how far he was willing to go.

The gas ensured money for Russia and compliance from Germany
They are still running gas through the Ukraine
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -gas-flows
This war is about bankrupting Russia the EU economy and Ukrainian life are just collateral damage.

[careinke]

Carinke,

Sorry, I got carried away with my last post. Too much coffee in the am I guess.

I take your point that there is no definitive answer and, unfortunately, we can NOT rule out US involvement in the NorStrwam strike.

I have different ideas and bias. Obviously.

I appreciate the back and forth, the discussion is not to "win" but to learn.
Sometimes I need to remind myself of that.

No Problem, I've been known to get a little zealous at times.

It did motivate me to check out all of your links pretty thoroughly, all of Nielsen's links and did a google search on him. Wiki was Wiki. I especially liked the Security Advisor's analysis. As a psych major, I was impressed.

Nielson is a Danish Professor in a military school. He has an OK following on You Tube and Zero presence on WIKI. His Web Page is barren with a Picture and very short synopsis. His social space is some obscure "Decentralized" site. I disagree with his hypothesis, especially since he admits his evidence will probably never be revealed. . We will just have to wait and see, and we can do nothing to influence it. I think Nielson believes he is correct, but he is looking at it through Danish Eyes. Finally he doesn't understand Bitcoin.

The Country doing the investigation was Sweden not Norway.

But since we are on the subject of Norway, Norway and Ukraine would have the most to gain by the destruction of the pipelines. Norway stands to profit as the only working pipeline, and Ukraine gets more arms that we pay for. Norway and apparently Ukraine certainly have the access and capability to pull it off.

I assume you have seen the Biden clip prior to Russia's invasion where he threatens Putin that if he invades, he was going to shutdown Nordstrom. When the incredulous reporter asked "how?" he just reaffirmed it would be shut down. Fox News must show that clip 60 times a day.

How about the clips after the sabotage? Where both sides of the aisle were celebrating how beneficial it was for the west and how the Russians made a stupid error in judgement.

Fiona Hill's talk/interview on the other hand was simply brilliant. I learned a LOT from it. She had me mesmerized and in awe how she presented her case to this audience. I could nit pick a few things, but they would be very minor. She truly, through her observations got into Putin's mind. Putin is obviously paranoid, but it is probably justified. His 24 year rule has evolved into something similar to Saudi Arabia.

Fiona Hill believes we are already in World War III, but so far we have managed to keep the battlefield to one country. She does NOT think Putin wants to engage with NATO directly and is Not concerned with Sweden or Finland joining NATO, but does have issues with Norway. I agree with this assessment. I wonder why Putin did not blow Norway's Pipeline, it would seem a better target, and still not an attack on NATO.

Hopefully all the party's will be brought to bargaining table this year, but I'm not holding my breath over things I have no control over. Instead I/We have been working on the beach place making it a sustainable (for generations) place of refuge, in an increasingly dangerous Blue State. That is something I DO have control over.

BTW Part of my "Good Morning" routine on google is, "This Day in History." Did you know Castro avoided over 60 assassination's attempts by the CIA? Including an explosive Cigar, and a rare seashell placed along his normal Scuba Swim, booby trapped to kill him. Sounds like a Road Runner Cartoon.

Peace,

[Newfie]

No doubt the USA is waist deep in dirty tricks.

Yes, we will have to just wait and see, if we ever hear the truth, about NordStream.

The Hersch story could be true, technically. Any one if a number of operators could have done it. Keep all the details the same, just change the names.

We have no reason to believe Hersch adds any weight to WHO did the deed. His “credible source@ could easily be a Russian troll. Who knows? And that is the problem.

I have ling said about Joe, a good thing about him is he opens his mouth and the truth falls out. And, yes, that has some weight.

I too liked Hill. But I disagree with her, I think Putin wants a direct NATO confrontation, he does not want to be blamed for it. Why? No clue. But that is the way he is heading, lots and lots of provocation. It is a personal thing with him.