[Pretorian]

When you are 18, you have reached the age of consent. When you are 21 you are an adult. The kid was 17.

I never heard of Mama Nature setting any deadlines for adulthood. A male becomes an adult when he becomes able to impregnate a female, that's how it works. That comes with all the hormonal consequences , the need to dominate within his group, etc, etc, mind me reminding you. So you keep a bunch of young , aspiring adults with an average IQ below 80-85 , in the room with nothing to do, for years, and then act surprised that they'd rather crack each others sculls than learn calculus or read Chaucer.

[jedrider]

This thread seems to have degraded with one side denigrating how much teens admire gangster rap and the other side, apparently rationally, stating that Zimmerman appears to be the guilty party accosting on the street with a lethal weapon a person having every right to be where they are. Those are the simple facts.

I don't like the gangster rap, but the hoodies are just fine with me. Hasn't anyone been a kid here, once?? Does every kid need to dress like they're going to prep school in order to walk down the street safely?? Now, those baggy pants, I think kids ought to be shot on sight wearing those -- though, only kidding!

[Plantagenet]

Zimmerman appears to be the guilty party accosting on the street with a lethal weapon a person having every right to be where they are. Those are the simple facts.

Thats what Trayvon's supporters say. They also claim Zimmerman is a racist.

Zimmerman's supporters say that Zimmerman isn't a racist, and that Trayvon jumped Zimmerman and started beating him up, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon in self defense.

It sounds like Florida is going to bring charges against Zimmerman soon, so hopefully all the facts will come out at the state trial, and possibly again at a separate federal trail if the FBI investigators find cause to indict Zimmerman on federal charges.

[Sixstrings]

Zimmerman appears to be the guilty party accosting on the street with a lethal weapon a person having every right to be where they are. Those are the simple facts.

Thats what Trayvon's supporters say. They also claim Zimmerman is a racist.

Zimmerman's supporters say that Zimmerman isn't a racist, and that Trayvon jumped Zimmerman and started beating him up, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon in self defense.

Bottom line on all of this is the "stand your ground" law.

Something just occurred to me recently -- before the "stand your ground" laws, there was common law with a "duty to retreat" other than the castle doctrine. Common law is very old, goes back centuries way back into England. In the days of highwaymen and yes they had pistols and lots of people were armed. Even then, so many centuries ago, you couldn't just go around shooting people and say you were "standing your ground." This was all sorted out centuries ago, outside of your home and in public you should have a reasonable duty to attempt retreat before using deadly force, if you do shoot an unarmed man then it should go to a jury to decide the facts.

I don't like the "stand your grown" laws, there's no good reason to overturn CENTURIES of common law.

[Sixstrings]

On the news now, Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder. A bit of a surprise, I was thinking it would be manslaughter.

[Outcast_Searcher]

On the news now, Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder. A bit of a surprise, I was thinking it would be manslaughter.

I thought manslaughter involved an ACCIDENTAL death.

Following someone (gangster or not) and shooting them can't be called accidental (presuming that's what actually happened).

Was it really justified self defense due to being beaten, etc? Hopefully the details on that will emerge in the trial.

[Lore]

Sounds like a reasonable charge. Zimmerman pursued the victim, in my estimation, with gun drawn when he confronted Martin. Cornered, a scuffle ensued. I find it interesting that if Zimmerman shot Trayvon, point blank, while being pummeled from below, why were there no traces of Martin's blood on him? He should have been covered.

[Sixstrings]

On the news now, Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder. A bit of a surprise, I was thinking it would be manslaughter.

I thought manslaughter involved an ACCIDENTAL death.

Following someone (gangster or not) and shooting them can't be called accidental (presuming that's what actually happened).

Was it really justified self defense due to being beaten, etc? Hopefully the details on that will emerge in the trial.

Well..

Thing is, Florida statute on 2nd degree requires the state to prove Zimmerman acted "with a depraved mind and wilfull disregard for human life."

From the little we know.. I don't see the "depraved mind" part. From what we know, looks like the guy had a concealed weapon permit, he got in a fight, he shot the guy he was fighting with -- that's not setting out wilfully and with depravity to go kill someone. There's a difference.

Manslaughter would have been the right charge. The special prosecutor has overcharged here, and just like the overcharging with Casey Anthony this could wind up getting him off. But then even if Zimmerman beats this, there will be civil rights charges coming down from the federal government.

Bottom line.. you guys who are armed.. be extremely careful. You should be careful ANYWAY. But don't go around thinking "stand your ground" gives you license to use that weapon when common sense says it's not necessary. Then again, how could Zimmerman "retreat" if he really was pinned to the ground getting hit? Tough case, it's goin' to a jury -- I think they overcharged, he MAY get off because of that but then again he may not since in general juries convict 90-something percent of the time.

EDIT: Oh nevermind maybe it is the right charge. I guess if somebody goes out and gets in a fistfight, then pulls a gun and shoots them, then that's exactly what 2nd degree murder is.

One thing is for sure though, the local DA was NOT going to prosecute and that's why Zimmerman wasn't arrested -- "stand your ground." Then after all the publicity and the governor appoints the special prosecutor, now suddenly it's arrest + 2nd degree murder. It's all very confusing for the citizenry, in a state with a million people going around with cwp's. Anyhow there's a lot of doubt here, and doubt = acquittal. If you the prosecutor has to err, manslaughter charge would have been better. This is so much tougher to prove now. I don't think manslaughter is thrown in there, so if the state can't prove 2nd degree then he goes free.

[Pretorian]

Then again, how could Zimmerman "retreat" if he really was pinned to the ground getting hit?

He could have start digging with his shoulder blades.

[Sixstrings]

Then again, how could Zimmerman "retreat" if he really was pinned to the ground getting hit?

He could have start digging with his shoulder blades.

We're not a jury, we're just people talking, but here's my gut-level common sense intuition:

Zimmerman used that gun because it was there. Here's someone who liked guns so much he got himself a concealed weapon permit. He was obsessed with becoming a cop. He got turned down for the police force, but was in school for law enforcement (vo-tech). He made himself "Neighborhood Watch Captain" -- I mean WHO does that come on -- he went out on patrol and guess what he found trouble.

But the trouble was caused by HIM out patrolling like he's some cop. And in that mindset, like he's Walker Texas Ranger, he wound up in a fight and he went for his weapon and fired *just because it was there*. That's why guns are so dangerous, they become an option and people get killed.

Obviously, for Zimmerman, it was not a good option. He's facing 2nd degree murder rap now. My common sense gut level intuition tells me Trayvon would not have killed Zimmerman. And when the cops got there, it could have been Trayvon going to jail for assault and battery. Trayvon wasn't in the right here either, there's just a difference in degrees -- assault versus murder, fists versus a gun. Unfortunately, less wise and more aggressive males than me get in fist fights and that's just how it is and always has been. But a gun is a whole other level, if all fistfights involved guns we'd have chaos in society.

My gut level intuition tells me that Zimmerman was not in mortal danger and he could have escaped. Or more to the point, the whole damn thing could have been avoided at multiple points. Let's just be blunt here -- if you go strutting around the ghetto acting like you're a cop, if you go chasing any man white or black then yes you're going to find a fight. Same thing could happen in Texas, you go stalking a redneck and ya he may turn around and kick your ass -- but a gun is a whole other level. If you shoot an unarmed person, you've got to answer for that.

Having said the above, if I were on the jury (technically there's a remote chance I could be since they'll move this to another county), I could not vote to convict of 2nd degree murder with a possible life sentence (the judge sentences, not the jury). There's just too much doubt here. I could convict of manslaughter, if the state met that burden of proof, but from what I know now, I couldn't convict him on murder. If just one juror feels the same way, then that means acquittal because there's no manslaughter option. That state has overcharged.

[Plantagenet]

The Taiwanese TV station that animates news events has produced an animation of the death of Trayvon:

Taiwanese animation of Trayvon's last moments

There is complete disagreement between Zimmerman's story of what happened versus Trayvon's girlfriend's story of what she heard over the cell phone....they can't both be true.

[Sixstrings]

The Taiwanese TV station that animates news events has produced an animation of the death of Trayvon:

Taiwanese animation of Trayvon's last moments

Those animations ^^ are usually wacky, but that one was quite compelling. Hm.

Zimmerman is odd that's for sure. He acts erratically, his lawyers had to publicly tell everyone their client won't listen to them, he has domestic violence and police assault on his record, anyone appointing themselves "Neighborhood Watch Captain" right there you know something is off about them.

Hm. I would tend to believe the girlfriend about what she overheard. Bottom line at so many points Zimmerman made bad choices, culminating in a choice to shoot the young man dead. When Trayvon asked "why are you following me," Zimmerman could have said he was neighborhood watch and that most likely would have diffused the situation -- fact is, Zimmerman didn't identify himself, no "neighborhood watch" shirt on and if he never gave a reason for following Trayvon then Trayvon reasonably thought he was in danger being stalked by some guy. This is why cops have uniforms, this is why they have marked cars, this is why even undercover cops have badges and identify themselves. If citizens are going to form armed watches or be civilian patrol officers then they need identification otherwise THEY are the suspicious ones.

I'm still on the fence though, murder vs. manslaughter. Would need to know more. Trial will be on TV so we'll all get to see it. Maybe Zimmerman can get Jose Bayez.

(it just occurred to me the 2nd degree charge could a tactical decision to allow room for a manslaughter plea bargain)

[Cloud9]

There is a lot of politics in this one. This one is going to be tough for the jury.

[Cog]

She won't get a conviction on second degree murder unless she has some evidence that no one has heard about. If Martin jumped Zimmerman and proceeeded to beat the crap out of him, then its justifiable self-defense on Zimmerman's part. If on the other hand, Zimmerman brandished the weapon first, then Martin was justified to use force, even lethal force to protect himself.

Knowing what I know right now, if I were a juror, I would have to vote not guilty as reasonable doubt exists as to who did what to whom. The deal is we may never know the exact sequence that led to the shooting.

[Cloud9]

Should the trial go south, I expect Holder to charge Zimmerman with a civil rights violation in federal court and get a conviction. Zimmerman is toast.

[dinopello]

She won't get a conviction on second degree murder unless she has some evidence that no one has heard about.

There is quite a bit of evidence including eye witness accounts. They may be inconclusive due to the darkness though. There is the analysis of the voice yelling for help. They have Zimmerman's statements to police that will be compared to the eye witness testimony, the girl on the phone and the other physical evidence like where the struggle took place, and blood forensic evidence (how much blood splattered where). Then there is motive. I think 2nd degree may come in due to the police clearly instructing Zimmerman to not continue to follow Martin and instead Zimmerman continues to persue in his car, then gets out of his car to confront Martin.

[Cloud9]

This pretty well establishes that Zimmerman should not have been charged. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/12/h ... acquitted/

[Sixstrings]

This pretty well establishes that Zimmerman should not have been charged. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/12/h ... acquitted/

Well.. he's saying the indictment doesn't demonstrate probable cause. Dershowitz also says the indictment is "really thin," nothing in it that wasn't in the public domain. There's no indication they did a scientific test to identify the screams on the 911 call, just the mother's identification of the voice. (I believe that though, sounds like a kid to me but still.. this indictment sounds sloppy)

Most of all..

Even without stand your ground, there is traditional common law type self-defense. Even if you start a fight with "fighting words", if it escalates and then you're getting hurt very bad and in a life and death struggle, resulting in deadly force then that's still arguably self defense.

According to Dershowitz, the indictment doesn't get past even common law self defense forget stand your ground. He says "a good judge would throw this out," he says the indictment doesn't establish a crime occurred.

Also just as I said, Dershowitz said it's overcharging -- probably due to public pressure, and also a tactic to get a lesser plea deal though that's unethical. Fact is, if you wind up before a jury odds are in the 90+% range you will be convicted. That's why it's so important prosecutors use "prosecutorial discretion" and NOT knowingly overcharge as a tactic. Because if it goes to a jury, the odds are so great for conviction no matter what the charge is.

Ultimately though.. I still find it hard to believe Zimmerman was in mortal danger.. it's not like Trayvon was a gangster, he was just a 17 year old walking home with skittles and iced tea. "Why are you following me," he asked. Zimmerman wasn't the one being stalked here, it was the other way around. A jury will have to sort this out, if there's no plea. Who knows what really happened.. Zimmerman could have panicked taking some punches, he had a gun right there on him so he used it. Whether that is murder or unnecessary and reckless disregard for human life, I don't know.

On the other hand.. fistfights happen every day.. they happen in bars, they happen in families, between neighbors, road rage on and on. It can't just be okay for everyone in a fistfight to pull out a gun and shoot.

[Cog]

She won't get a conviction on second degree murder unless she has some evidence that no one has heard about.

I think 2nd degree may come in due to the police clearly instructing Zimmerman to not continue to follow Martin and instead Zimmerman continues to persue in his car, then gets out of his car to confront Martin.

A police dispatcher is not an LEO, they are civilians with no ability to give lawful orders. The dispatcher also did not instruct Zimmerman to not follow Martin, she said "We don't need you to do that". That is a suggestion in any case, which Zimmerman is free to ignore just like I can ignore anything a police dispatcher says to me.

Zimmerman can easily come up with a reason of why he felt it was necessary to keep Martin in sight by following him. It will be up to a jury to determine if that reason was reasonable given the circumstances.

Given the weakness of the indictment so far, Zimmerman's lawyer will have no problem creating reasonable doubt.

Words have meaning in a court of law as you are about to find out when this trial gets underway.

[Plantagenet]

Zimmerman can easily come up with a reason of why he felt it was necessary to keep Martin in sight by following him. It will be up to a jury to determine if that reason was reasonable given the circumstances.

Isn't the whole point of a "neighborhood watch" to watch what goes on in the neighborhood?