[mousepad]

But hey, go ahead and pretend I said the exact opposite. Based on your posts it appears you want to twist my words to make me sound like some kind of renewable energy zealot.

Relax. I'm on the forum to have a bit of fun. You know, like in the old times with a bunch of friends in the town tavern over a couple of beers. Not everything needs to be a scientific dissertation.

[AdamB]

But hey, go ahead and pretend I said the exact opposite. Based on your posts it appears you want to twist my words to make me sound like some kind of renewable energy zealot.

Relax. I'm on the forum to have a bit of fun. You know, like in the old times with a bunch of friends in the town tavern over a couple of beers. Not everything needs to be a scientific dissertation.

I think of it similarly. Maybe with an occasional cocktail party flavor. The smokers are over there, the heavy drinkers there, other folks mingling and giggling on occasion when they glance over at the peak oilers....you know...the children at the kids table playing with dolls...and so on and so forth.

[C8]

Texas power grid operator calls for conservation again as wind generation falters

A combination of record high electrical demand due to a scorching heat wave and low wind generation prompted the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) to call for Texans to conserve energy again on Wednesday.

Heat advisories by the National Weather Service remained in place as temperatures topped 100 degrees for the 12th day in a row in some parts of Texas.

The record high electric demand has been exacerbated by developing cloud cover, which has reduced the amount of solar generation, and low wind, which has caused wind farms to generate less power.

ERCOT also called for Texans to conserve energy on Monday from 2:00-8:00 p.m., during which time wind was only producing 8% of its total capacity.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/tex ... on-falters

Texas is a tough place to live- not sure why so many are going there

[AdamB]

Texas is a tough place to live- not sure why so many are going there

[C8]

German Energy Prices Jump Due to Wind Drought

Caroline Downey
Mon, July 11, 2022 at 11:55 AM·2 min read

German energy prices surged on Monday due to insufficient wind generation.

The jump comes amid already crippling inflation affecting household commodities, such as food and gas, in Europe and the United States. On Monday, power reached the highest price level since early March because of a projected deficit in wind output for the next few days, Bloomberg reported.

In addition to the wind drought, a gas crunch is also expected due to the temporary shutdown of the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, which transports 55 billion cubic metres of gas per year from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea. The pipeline is expected to be inoperative until July 21 due to maintenance.

In April, Germany unveiled the Easter Package, a plan to expand renewable energies through onshore and offshore wind development in line with the European Union’s REPowerEU Action Plan, a plan to make Europe independent from Russian fossil fuels before 2030. The Easter Package target goal is to transition 80 percent of Germany’s electricity to renewables by 2030.

Wind droughts, such as that which plagued Europe in summer and fall of 2021, have been exacerbating the continent’s current energy crisis, already severe because of the disturbance to global energy markets from the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Both Germany and Great Britain depend significantly on wind to satisfy increasing energy consumption. Europe’s transition to clean sources of energy has resulted in dramatic swings in power supply from intermittent electricity that is periodically unable to fully support electrical grids.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-energ ... 25937.html

Europe seems to be gambling its economic future on the weather

[Newfie]

“Wind drought” was a new to me term.

What effect will changing trends in regional wind speeds have on the future of wind energy? Very large, considering that a small change in wind speed has a big effect on the power output of a turbine (it’s related to the cube of the wind speed). Hannah Bloomfield at the University of Bristol first looks at the “wind drought” experienced in Europe this year which saw SSE in the UK report a 32% drop in power from its renewable assets. Meanwhile, the latest IPCC report suggests average European wind speeds will reduce by up to 10% as a result of climate change. Bloomfield then reviews the current state of wind modelling. The fact is near-surface wind speeds are extremely difficult to predict – much harder than surface temperatures. Different models can give very different, even opposite, results. Some show wind speeds increasing as temperatures warm, and others show decreases. A more detailed understanding – and the limits of its accuracy – is an ongoing topic of scientific research. It will be crucial for guiding investment decisions for wind, and a reminder that it would not be wise to depend too much on one technology, says Bloomfield.

https://energypost.eu/climate-change-wi ... nd-energy/


Following the wind has factored in my education to sailing. It is really remarkable how the wind is effected by the shore line contours. It can shift 90° due to a low marsh. And I swear, even though I can not explain it, I have seen a under water bar strongly shift the passing wind. Sailing behind mountainous islands is a royal PITA, too close and the wind can go from 0 to 30 knots in short seconds. The wind can reverse and blow the wrong way. I have seen an islands “wind shadow” extend 8 miles, others report more. There can even be a wind shadow on the windward side. And the mountains cause rain. Books have been written in the effects, literally.

Wind forecasts are only very rough. Experienced sailors always add something like 10% inshore and 20% off shore. That is a lot because, as the article noted, the power of the wind rises (and falls) by the cube.

But I have never heard of a “wind drought”. I would have thought the wind would be ever increasing because there is more energy in the system. So I am surprised by the predicted “global stilling”, even though the explanation makes some sense. It has a direct effect on my life.

My personal question is …. Are the turbines interfering with one another? Maybe they need more room between to assure smooth flow?

But also, the turbines are always built on shallow banks. Wind and water interacts, witness waves. Waves and the bottom interact, shoal water reacts differently to wind than deep water, the waves are close spaced and steep. Maybe the it is the interaction between the near supersonic blade tips as they pass near the water surface? It is a very complicated system.

[C8]

My personal question is …. Are the turbines interfering with one another? Maybe they need more room between to assure smooth flow?

But also, the turbines are always built on shallow banks. Wind and water interacts, witness waves. Waves and the bottom interact, shoal water reacts differently to wind than deep water, the waves are close spaced and steep. Maybe the it is the interaction between the near supersonic blade tips as they pass near the water surface? It is a very complicated system.

Its a good question that you ask and one that I am interested in too. The general assumption seems to be that windmills would just take the energy from the air and not affect the climate or weather at all. But if we were to have billions of windmills turning around all over the planet it would seem that they would be taking the energy out of the atmosphere. It would be interesting to see how taking that much energy out of the atmosphere would affect any weather patterns. It might be very small, after all are trillions of trees that stop wind- but still it is an interesting question.

I think the biggest concern I have is that the green energy movement doesn't seem to grasp the logical conflict between the idea that global warming will make weather more unpredictable and that we should have our energy based on the weather. That would seem to lead to unpredictable energy output. And it is possible that events that we think are currently impossible, such as very long periods of time with no wind, will become more likely.

I'm a big supporter of renewable energy in its proper place but I worry about it being the mainstay of a nation's energy system (I am inclined to 40% nuclear, 30% fossil fuels, and 30% renewable sources- a good balance if one should falter).

[Tanada]

My personal question is …. Are the turbines interfering with one another? Maybe they need more room between to assure smooth flow?

But also, the turbines are always built on shallow banks. Wind and water interacts, witness waves. Waves and the bottom interact, shoal water reacts differently to wind than deep water, the waves are close spaced and steep. Maybe the it is the interaction between the near supersonic blade tips as they pass near the water surface? It is a very complicated system.

Its a good question that you ask and one that I am interested in too. The general assumption seems to be that windmills would just take the energy from the air and not affect the climate or weather at all. But if we were to have billions of windmills turning around all over the planet it would seem that they would be taking the energy out of the atmosphere. It would be interesting to see how taking that much energy out of the atmosphere would affect any weather patterns. It might be very small, after all are trillions of trees that stop wind- but still it is an interesting question.

I think the biggest concern I have is that the green energy movement doesn't seem to grasp the logical conflict between the idea that global warming will make weather more unpredictable and that we should have our energy based on the weather. That would seem to lead to unpredictable energy output. And it is possible that events that we think are currently impossible, such as very long periods of time with no wind, will become more likely.

I'm a big supporter of renewable energy in its proper place but I worry about it being the mainstay of a nation's energy system (I am inclined to 40% nuclear, 30% fossil fuels, and 30% renewable sources- a good balance if one should falter).

The turbine engineers have developed a quite detailed formula for wind turbine spacing depending on the terrain and capacity/height of the wind towers. Reputable companies follow those spacing rules because crowding turbines can cost you a lot of investment for minimal return.

Every manmade object be it a skyscraper, pole barn or wind tower does have an effect on the wind. However while a building may force the wind to shift direction as a general rule it doesn't take energy out of the wind so much as redirect its course. When wind hits a skyscraper it is forced to move around it to either side and above whichever direction is the path of least resistance. A wind turbine on the other hand actively slows down the wind which passes through its area of effect transferring that energy into the electric turbine to be drawn off as electrical current. If a crew needs to stop a turbine they ground the tower dumping the electricity into the earth instead of into the grid which pulls the power out so fast the generator acts as an electric braking system instead of as a generator. In essence this is dumping the power generated into resistors and converting it into heat which is the same way a diesel/electric locomotive slows down a train by using the motors as generators feeding a series of high power resistors and blowing air through the heated stack. I have read about some companies using earth resistance directly by planting two thick conductors a couple meters apart and sending the current through the earth between as a giant resistor while others use an electrical bank of resistors the same way a locomotive does. I saw a picture one time of a spot were the earth resistor rods were to close together and the current literally melted the soil into an obsidian like material when the power dumped was more than the soil could resist. As the fine material melted into a single mass the resistance dropped because the current no longer had to 'hop' from one particle to the next in the space between the grounding rods.

Braking of a wind turbine can also be done by dumping energy from the generator into a resistor bank, thereby converting the kinetic energy of the turbine rotation into heat. This method is useful if the connetic load on the generator is suddenly reduced or is too small to keep the turbine speed within its allowed limit.

[AdamB]

The general assumption seems to be that windmills would just take the energy from the air and not affect the climate or weather at all. But if we were to have billions of windmills turning around all over the planet it would seem that they would be taking the energy out of the atmosphere.

They do. It is physics 101. Funny that you don't see your question being asked, calculated, and factored in as its own effect on climate/weather/atmospheric energy. Advocates demonstrate they are one by not discussing the pieces they don't want to discuss. That's how you spot them. So...why don't renewable enthusiasts discuss that side effect of wind energy? The same would apply to tide. And other than the interest James Lovelock generated some years ago with his comments on nukes, have you noticed that within the renewable world, discussion of it is rare? Wheels within wheels...and advocates have no requirement to think in terms of systems or lifecycle processes, they are advocates for a reason. Gore and McKibben being but two examples.

[JuanP]

My personal question is …. Are the turbines interfering with one another? Maybe they need more room between to assure smooth flow?

The short answer is yes. I remember reading about that years ago, when I read a report made for the Uruguayan government when it was considering the installation of large numbers of very big wind generator fields. They need to be placed at very specific distances and locations for them to interfere with each other as little as possible. All wind generator fields are modeled in computers to figure out the best locations for the generators. Every generator reduces the air flow and creates disturbances.

I learnt about the relationship between wind speed and energy generation capacity when I lived aboard, too. Always seeking the right spot to anchor, preferring to be farther offshore to have clean winds for our 400-watt wind gen; it makes a huge difference.

[C8]

considering the installation of large numbers of very big wind generator fields. They need to be placed at very specific distances and locations for them to interfere with each other as little as possible. All wind generator fields are modeled in computers to figure out the best locations for the generators. Every generator reduces the air flow and creates disturbances.

These must be very complicated math models as the wind can shift and even eddy greatly depending on topography

[C8]

If a crew needs to stop a turbine they ground the tower dumping the electricity into the earth instead of into the grid which pulls the power out so fast the generator acts as an electric braking system instead of as a generator.

This must be horrible for animal life under the generator- I would hate to be a chipmunk in such an area

[JuanP]

considering the installation of large numbers of very big wind generator fields. They need to be placed at very specific distances and locations for them to interfere with each other as little as possible. All wind generator fields are modeled in computers to figure out the best locations for the generators. Every generator reduces the air flow and creates disturbances.

These must be very complicated math models as the wind can shift and even eddy greatly depending on topography

I guess so. I remember that I loved the wind speed 3D color animations included with them. It was very cool how they adapted to different conditions like topography, wind direction and speed variability, and elevation from the ground. The eddies were much longer than I would have imagined.

[Subjectivist]

I am old enough to remember the endless promises of Solartopia paid for by fossil fuel companies. It sure seems like a lot of hot air if you do an honest EROEI assesment. Passive solar can pay off fairly well but for generating power when you add in the storage fir the 18 hours a day when the sun is not well positioned the real financial demand multiplies quickly. Then you add in environmental costs of the huge footprint, infrastructure costs of basically duplicating the grid with fossil back up and all the other costs and suddenly fission is a bargain in comparison. But you hardly ever see those expenses honestly added to solar or wind, just the cost of the bogus nameplate capacity.

[C8]

Solar stocks sink as Senator Manchin says he won’t support climate bill

Solar stocks tumbled Friday after Senator Joe Manchin said he will not support increased spending to address climate change, according to NBC News, citing a Democrat briefed on the conversations.

The Invesco Solar ETF, which tracks the industry, was down roughly 6% by 10:30 a.m. on Wall Street. For the week, the fund is now down 13%. Sunrun, Sunnova, First Solar and Maxeon Solar all fell more than 10%.

The industry’s grappled with a number of headwinds this year, including policy uncertainty, supply chain bottlenecks and rising raw material costs.

More recently, the group’s gotten hit amid a rotation out of growth-oriented areas of the market as investors asses the impact of higher interest rates.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/15/solar-s ... -bill.html

Eliminate tariffs
Enter the Chinese?

[C8]

Fascinating article on how solar panels can have their efficiency reduced by 10-25% due to extreme heat so that Europe is not getting extreme energy from the heat wave.

https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy ... cient.html

[Doly]

Eliminate tariffs

Why would you be in favor of eliminating solar tariffs?

[vtsnowedin]

I'm certainly not in favor of eliminating tariffs against China or any other country that will not compete fairly.
In my view stated as simply as I can, I think a product like solar panels that is taxed by our governments ,local state , and federal, to say $0.25 per square foot and China subsidizes their panels for export $0.50/ sf should have a tariff of $0.75/sf. If they want less tariff all they have to do is lower their subsidy. This policy could be applied to any number of commodities and products from pork bellies to computer chips.

[C8]

Sen Manchin supports a green energy bill that mandates new oil and gas leasing:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/28/manchin ... react.html

Key parts: billions for renewable energy projects (subsidies) and mandates for fossil fuel leasing of areas to drill.

Basically, Manchin made green energy hostage to FF's. This will lead to record spending and record inflation. The middle class will be crushed as the inflation "tax" wipes out their standard of living. But big Green and Oil corps. will get fat.

America only know one response to a debt created crisis: create MORE debt! The final reckoning just got worse.

[vtsnowedin]

Sen Manchin supports a green energy bill that mandates new oil and gas leasing:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/28/manchin ... react.html

Key parts: billions for renewable energy projects (subsidies) and mandates for fossil fuel leasing of areas to drill.

Basically, Manchin made green energy hostage to FF's. This will lead to record spending and record inflation. The middle class will be crushed as the inflation "tax" wipes out their standard of living. But big Green and Oil corps. will get fat.

America only know one response to a debt created crisis: create MORE debt! The final reckoning just got worse.

Yes a very bad deal for the US consumer and tax payer. We will pay dearly for this if it becomes law which seems likely.
And just watch the Biden bureaucracy stiff Manchin on those drilling permits by dragging out some process or another and never actually issuing any drilling permits. So Manchin has bargained with the devil and has lost his soul .