[ekaggata]

Hello, newbie here.
I've been reading a great deal on this website, it's an invaluable resource.

I'm looking for more information about what's happening in poor countries.
It's my belief that peak oil effects are already being felt directly in many poorer countries in Asia, Africa for example. There is a thread on this page that refers to Thailand which I will look into.
But there is a big focus here (quite naturally) on events in the US and to a lesser extent EU, Aus etc.

I see a danger that we may actually miss the real news because in this intervening period of inexorable rise in crude prices there will be a vastly greater effect on poorer people and countries. And I'm finding it difficult to get reports on this.

So this is an appeal for people to dredge up whatever they can on what's going on outside the "West" and post it here.

Thanks!

A little contribution from me: living here in Guangzhou, southern China, you would never guess there was any such thing as peak oil. The economy is continuing to boom, for now at least. I have only seen two signs (small) of things changing - firstly a taxi fare surcharge for fuel was introduced last September, and also around that time there were apparently gas lines (petrol queues BrE). As I understand it, the government does not allow the market to set the price of gasoline directly here.
I could also mention waves of blackouts/brownouts regularly in many coastal/ high population areas over the last few years.

[cudabachi]

Thanks for that post from China! I don´t recall other forum members posting from there, though I´m sure there are some.

Do keep us informed on PO developments there.

[seahorse]

ekaggata,

You are right that the third world countries are being overlooked. But, regretfully, they always have been.

I'm fascinated that you are posting from China. How did you hear about "peak oil" and is the topic discussed much in China? Is there much news coverage on the issue?

[ekaggata]

I should mention I'm actually British.
Been here nearly 2 years now and may be moving on soon. So unfortunately I'm not really "in" the society, but I do get a chance to gauge people's opinions.
The truth is there is very, very little awareness here. There *is* a big push to get people and businesses to be aware of the environmental costs of capitalism, and this is not surprising because pollution is in your face, literally, everywhere here.
People are aware that there is a big need for energy (the demand for electricity has just risen so fast that it outstripped supply). But there is nothing here to cause optimism.
In my opinion, the culture of waste here is actually *stronger* than in the West, and possibly stronger than anywhere else I've seen (I've lived in all the BRIC countries, and 2 different countries in Europe, travelled in 20 more).
Sound and light blazes and blares everywhere. Since there is no concept of "personal space", and since there is serious overcrowding, advertising takes on a whole new meaning here. You can't really even escape it in your apartment.
I live on a street about 100m long whose population is approximately that of a small town in England (seriously, I would guess 10-20000 people).
All of these people are using airconditioners. And since this is the rich part of town, many have cars and more and more are trying to buy every month.
Don't be under any illusion that Chinese people "can't afford cars". Only a small proportion can, but that small proportion is comparable in population to a few European countries. Traffic is appalling here, already as bad as London, and getting worse.

There are reports that many of the vegetables have vast quantities of DDT and other banned substances all over them. Something that fascinates me about life here is that although I can now buy coffee at Starbucks and all the other Western "luxuries", I find it *very* difficult to buy a tomato that has any taste.

Quick summary: awareness of environmental issues: fair, and increasing amongst young people(although maybe too late: the situation is desperate). Awareness of peak oil: dim to zero.

[venky]

Its been a while since I've set foot on my home country India, however from what I hear awareness is far less than in the Western world. The economy is still booming and the public in general are protected from the higher oil prices by government subsidies, while the state owned oil company continues to run appalling losses. I am hard pressed to find any newspaper that runs articles on the subject. I would probably say it is like how it was in the west about three years ago when the only place you could find out about peak oil was on websites like dieoff.org.

Last year though an activist named Robin Abraham who posted for a while on the energy resources group did manage to raise some awareness of the issue in the media and even managed to get an audience with Mr LK Advani, the former leader of the right wing BJP and former Deputy Prime Minister.

However, there seems to be little reflection of a change in policy on the ground and an emphasis on securing fossil fuel energy supplies around the world as articulated by former energy minister Mani Shankar Aiyer still seems to be the norm.

[Falconoffury]

Venky, sounds like India is setting up for a hard crash. Operate in the red for as long as possible, and then when it can be held no longer, open the floodgates.

[aldente]

The American model you mean, right?

[venky]

Venky, sounds like India is setting up for a hard crash. Operate in the red for as long as possible, and then when it can be held no longer, open the floodgates.

Possible, and it is very worrying. Especially our continued population explosion even if slowing down is still frightening. However there are some points in our favour.

# We have the largest rail network in the world for both passenger and goods transportation, which is largely electrified, so we are are not dependent on oil for transport of critical goods.

#Also rural India(65% of the population) does not really live in the oil age, and uses little oil for transportion, and is largely self-sufficient. Ofcourse self-sufficiency can be a euphemism for absolute poverty. Ofcourse I'm sure fossil fuels are used in the huge agricultural sector following the green revolution.

#Proximity to the persian gulf and Central Asia, so barring a major conflict, relatively easy to have access to reserves.

# we have huge dollar reserves, so barring a collapse of the US dollar , I dont think India is going to be priced out of the market although prices above $100 might take their toll. However the the Indian economy is still expected to grow at 7.5% this fiscal year.


gulf-times.com

[Pretorian]

I have a few questions if you don't mind.
-Hom much of food India exports/imports?
-If there are any Nature left, between 1 bln people?

[venky]

India has abundant fertile land and water resources and is self-sufficient in food production, mainly as a result of the success in the Green revolution. Even exports some 10 million tonnes of grain. However, tragically in rural areas, starvation is still an issue, not because their isn't food available, but because the people are too poor to buy it.

By nature, if you mean forests, I believe they are shrinking although I am not that familiar with the issue. I think the figure is something 19% of the total land area, far less than the world average of 33%.

[max_power29]

A lot of farmers in India are now killing themselves because they cannot afford diesel, chemicals, and Monsanto (Mon-Satan IMHO)

[Ludi]

A lot of farmers in India are now killing themselves because they cannot afford diesel, chemicals, and Monsanto (Mon-Satan IMHO)

This is because they have been coerced into these expensive farming methods in order to pay rent and/ or taxes on their land (thanks to globalized commodity farming ala "Lorenzo's schemes.")


Permaculture resources for India: http://www.permacultureactivist.net/pcr ... urces2.htm

Sorry, I couldn't find any permie contacts for China.

[Leanan]

I post stories about energy issues in the Third World, but they get very few clicks. People just aren't interested. Even the energy shortages in Europe didn't draw much attention. This is a very U.S.-centric site.

But I do think demand destruction is occurring. Not so much among ordinary U.S. consumers, but for industry, and people in the Third World. There have been riots in countries like Panama and Lebanon, at least partly because of high fuel prices. Bangladesh is suffering a shortage of fertilizer and diesel fuel, causing some civil unrest among farmers. India is talking about imposing price controls, and Indonesia is hoping to build wind turbines to solve their energy crisis.

Africa is a mess. Shortages, rolling blackouts, you name it. There was a story that came across the wire services a few months ago, about Harare, Zimbabwe. They are having trouble maintaining their sewers. People are dumping sand down their drains. They can no longer afford soap or detergent, so they wash their dishes with sand. Tons of it are removed from the pipes each week. They also finding about 20 corpses of babies per week in the pipes - children families cannot afford to keep.

[waegari]

I post stories about energy issues in the Third World, but they get very few clicks. People just aren't interested. Even the energy shortages in Europe didn't draw much attention. This is a very U.S.-centric site.

Same goes for me, as news editor. I try to keep track as best as I can of things happening outside the US and the EU, but it's especially stories from Africa and smaller Asian countries which clearly get much less attention. It's quite unnerving at times, I must admit, especially so, because (as Leanan is pointing out) there are things happening out there.
And let's face it: they are not just dire for the people involved, but they're also forebodings of what we might well be going to find on our plates one day. People might actually learn something.

I was quite stunned recently by some forum post, which reacted to a story about South East Asian fishermen who couldn't afford buying oil for their vessels any longer. It pointed out that this was small fry compared to what might happen as soon Wall Mart would get hit. The guy probably believes there's only about 500 people living in South East Asia.

But: I'm not going to flinch for the while. Peakoil.com <i>is</i> an internationally oriented community, as peak oil <i> is or will be</i> an international problem, that is, disaster. I just keep hoping more of you may start making a habit of reading stories from the dark hinterlands, also known as The World Out There.

[lateStarter]

I post stories about energy issues in the Third World, but they get very few clicks. People just aren't interested. Even the energy shortages in Europe didn't draw much attention. This is a very U.S.-centric site.

Same goes for me, as news editor. I try to keep track as best as I can of things happening outside the US and the EU, but it's especially stories from Africa and smaller Asian countries which clearly get much less attention. It's quite unnerving at times, I must admit, especially so, because (as Leanan is pointing out) there are things happening out there.
And let's face it: they are not just dire for the people involved, but they're also forebodings of what we might well be going to find on our plates one day. People might actually learn something.

I was quite stunned recently by some forum post, which reacted to a story about South East Asian fishermen who couldn't afford buying oil for their vessels any longer. It pointed out that this was small fry compared to what might happen as soon Wall Mart would get hit. The guy probably believes there's only about 500 people living in South East Asia.

But: I'm not going to flinch for the while. Peakoil.com <i>is</i> an internationally oriented community, as peak oil <i> is or will be</i> an international problem, that is, disaster. I just keep hoping more of you may start making a habit of reading stories from the dark hinterlands, also known as The World Out There.

Perhaps it is time to revist what is going on with the news posts! They are always interesting, but nobody seems to respond to them. Why? I have posted several responses in the past expecting some sort of dialog, and nothing. Nada! Then, I gave up.

I don't think the problem is that the topics are 'uninteresting', its just that it seems to be outside the normal mode of communication at this site. I can't place my finger on it, but something is very abnormal about how the whole thing works....

I think PO.com needs a better mechanism for generating dialog for current event news items. If we can't come up with something better, just keep it in 'Current Events' and eliminate the ability to resond to 'News'...

[TorrKing]

I agree Latestarter. I rarely go to the front page anymore, though I always find a bunch of interesting things whenever I go there.

This board is like this I think:
The Americans only look on their own situation.
The Europeans mainly applaude the bad things in the US (me too I admit).
The rest of the world is normally mentioned either as a small footnote or just as producers of the good stuff.

Torjus Gaaren

[Leanan]

Yeah, I agree commenting on news is pretty pointless. Once the story scrolls off the front page, no one sees it. And you aren't notified if anyone responds to your post.

The only time comments on news stories are good is when people respond to de-bunk them, as is currently happening with the "huge find in Gulf of Mexico" story.

[lotrfan55345]

The (main) country where my genetic roots come from, only 30-40% of the population can afford to own a car.

Main City:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Manila

[lateStarter]

Yeah, I agree commenting on news is pretty pointless. Once the story scrolls off the front page, no one sees it. And you aren't notified if anyone responds to your post.

The only time comments on news stories are good is when people respond to de-bunk them, as is currently happening with the "huge find in Gulf of Mexico" story.

So, if comenting on the news is pretty pointless, why do we have it? I'm guessing that some of the people that post up interesting news topics spend a fair amount of time finding interesting and/or controversial topics. Why bother if nobody responds? Must be discouraging...

I think the news posts are a great idea, I just think we need a different/better way to respond. I'm sure we have all visited other sites where this is handled better.

[Ibon]

As a news item peak would appear far too abstract for most developing countries even though the consequences are already real. These consequences like rising energy costs however are still viewed in isolation. Peak Oil is also not such an issue when your oil per capita consumption is so low as venky pointed out for 65% of India's rural population.

Developing countries have so many immediate needs that peak oil would have to compete with hundreds of other "emergency stories" that are always present in these countries. So developing countries are more enculturated with regular disasters and disruptive events unlike the west which is starting to freak out over a real possible threat to their self entitled way of life. It takes a few generations to reach the level of self entitlement that the average wersterner has. Developing countries are cuturally much better prepared for peak oil than the west for this reason.

China however seems to have a huge hunger to catch up to the west after decades of impoverishment so it doesn't seem like the Chinese will gracefully accept falling back to a slower economy and consumption levels that they recently had. China seems the most volatile of all developing nations in having like the USA a sense of demanding rather than accepting the course of events around energy.