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European Union falling apart

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

EU geopolitical study

Unread postby MrBean » Mon 22 Aug 2005, 07:38:52

Geopolitical study

279 pages of hard-core energy related geopolitical analysis for the hard-core geopolitical enthusiasts. 8)

What makes this paper interesting is that it is semi-official background study for EU Commission's Green Paper on energy, done by a Dutch institute on international relations, dated January 2004, and thus offers a peek into what European decision makers may be really thinking now. Paper is surprisingly candid in it's realpolitik approach, especially the "Regions and Empires" storyline, and with only minimum of diplomatic political correctness (which is still quite much, of course).

Among many other things it includes a detailed discussion (pp. 228-236) about petroeuro, pretty much confirming Willian Clark's thesis about Petrodollar recycling (and by implication warfare to protect that):


3.11 Conclusion
Pondering on a currency switch, if possible, would mean the choice between two risks. Either such a switch is not made, and European consumers and some producer states remain susceptible to currency
risks. However if such a switch is made, and energy import deals are made in euros, there is risk concerning the relative value of the euro. The implications of a currency switch in Europe’s energy trade could even reverberate in the American current account balance, and will have significant implications for the national banks of countries that would start to trade energy products in euros, as their national banks will have to build up considerable reserves of this currency.

The US current account deficit has only be sustained thus far because of huge amounts of foreign investments entering the US and because other governments are acquiring large reserves of US dollars. Last year US trading partner countries added $220 billion to their reserves. US demand can only be sustained because of this international demand for the US dollar. If, however, demand for the dollar falls, and consequently the dollar depreciates in comparison to the euro, this will have grave consequences for the economies of the Eurozone. Such a decline in demand for dollars can be discerned already, as can be seen in the recent appreciation of the euro, and could be exacerbated by a currency switch in the energy
trade between Europe and the energy producing countries. As a commentator stated in the Financial Times (July 2nd 2003), “It follows that [..] (if) there is an adjustment of the US current account it will be
suffered largely by the Eurozone, which will be forced into continuing stagnation, or worse.”


PO is not discussed directly, but a "supply gap" by 2010 because of lack of investments in developing fields in production countries, or because of geopolitical tensions is discussed. Paper uses mostly IEA and BP data,

Haven't read the whole thing yet, but the main recommendations for EU's energy security seem to be (in addition to increasing energy efficiency to curb indreasing depencency of imports discussed elsewhere) to actively continue efforts to economically integrate neighbouring producing countries with EU, in the South Mediterranaen through Euro-Med FTA (remember Qaddafi getting red carpet treatment in Brussels?), and in east integrating Russia with European Economic Space or some other similar accomodation, and Turkish membership providing more secure access to Middle East energy resources.
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Re: EU geopolitical study

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 22 Aug 2005, 23:18:01

Interesting MrBean. Thanks for the link
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Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby Njegosh » Sat 27 Aug 2005, 20:36:53

Ok

We've been yappin about the future of Europe for some time over at Open Discussion and other spots on this board and that usually ends in a Euro/Us flaeme war

So here's a chance for all us europo POVs

what will happen to europe in general and to your country in particular?

discuss.

and please keep it as eurocentric as possible,i'd like to see the inside view.
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Re: Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby born2respawn » Sat 27 Aug 2005, 21:01:19

I can't imagine Europe, at least Western/Old Europe, going Balkan. That area has had more than it's fair share of wars ever since the big empires pulled out. Britain, France, Germany and the like don't have much reason to invade one another either, which helps.

That said, I wouldn't really expect a golden age of co-operation and prosperity, because every country will be looking after it's own citizens first. I don't imagine it'll be entirely pleasent in Europe, quite the opposite, but with a less well armed populace there will be much less in the way of violence. Whether that makes Europe ripe for state oppression is a matter of opinion, and often the crux of arguments over how well the two continents will fare.
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Re: Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby MrBean » Sat 27 Aug 2005, 22:40:35

I don't see EU breaking up likely, but the political fight over EU's future nature will intensify as the neoliberal "euro-elite" (Brussels and national governements) will keep loosing democratic legitimicy and political tide is centrifugal, towards both left and right from the centre, with greatly reduced predictability.

As for energy policies, EU's strategy of renewables and conservation is in the right direction but insufficient, as it is still based on too optimistic assumptions. Much of course depends on when PO happens and how steep the decline will be. If 10%-15%, we're in deep shit, if around 3%, adjusting in possible. Electricity generation is not a real problem even with moderately rising demand, as there's still lot of NG in the neighbouring areas that will not peak soon allowing enough time to build renewables (current target over 20% by 2010) and fission.

Real problem is transport, current programs and their targets concerning rail and biofuels fall ridiculously behind what is needed to response to even modest decline in availability of oil, and of course the problem cannot be solved by "market forces" alone by any remotely humane way, even if oil prices go way up making motor vehicle transport non-competitive. If real crise consciousness does not develop very soon to find sustainable and holistic solutions to the transport problem, things don't look too good.
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Re: Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby sjn » Sat 27 Aug 2005, 23:08:42

I really hope the EU does hold together, but I think it'll have to change a lot. I'm hoping that the neo-liberals will be greatly discredited by the comming economic collapse and obvious environmental and climatic changes that their policies have fostered. We need a new political movement in the EU around a platform of pragmatic environmentalism and internationalism. We have a long sorry history of fighting amongst ourselves, it won't help.

I'm not so confident about the NG availability. While there are still neighbouring parts of the world with large supplies what's to say that they'll make them available to us? Russia is going to want to take care of itself, we'll have to have something they need for trade, what's to stop them from selling it eastward. I don't think things would be too different in the Middle East, assuming the whole region doesn't erupt into complete chaos.

I suspect the decline of oil will be very steep and I'm afraid you're probably right about what is more likely to happen. I just hope we'll learn from the lessons of history.
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Re: Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby MrBean » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 13:52:06

sjn wrote:I really hope the EU does hold together, but I think it'll have to change a lot. I'm hoping that the neo-liberals will be greatly discredited by the comming economic collapse and obvious environmental and climatic changes that their policies have fostered. We need a new political movement in the EU around a platform of pragmatic environmentalism and internationalism. We have a long sorry history of fighting amongst ourselves, it won't help.


Agreed. My candidate for the new political movement is international green socialism, but not the current social democratic and other center-left parties, that have discredited themselves by either joining or appeasing the neoliberal forces.

I'm not so confident about the NG availability. While there are still neighbouring parts of the world with large supplies what's to say that they'll make them available to us? Russia is going to want to take care of itself, we'll have to have something they need for trade, what's to stop them from selling it eastward. I don't think things would be too different in the Middle East, assuming the whole region doesn't erupt into complete chaos.


Currently Russia and Algeria are the main suppliers of NG and continue to strengthen their role as North Sea NG is nearing peak/passed it. I see the role of NG mainly as buying little time (couple decades tops) to develop sustainable energy models, and yes, this gives lot of political leveradge to certain third parties, we just have to live with that fact and strengthen our ties with Russia and Moslem world, even if that means EU abandoning allience with US and disbanding NATO - which I personally would not miss a bit as I live in a non-NATO country. Turkey's membership would be very important to gain more secure access to Middle East and South Caucasus.
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Re: Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby Licho » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 14:16:26

In fact, US currently wants EU to include Turkey, to provide greater stability in the region. If we ensure stability, we will be only fighting for oil and gas on markets (where we can win) and not on battlefield.

But I fear, that including too many countries now would only make EU shallower. And we need opposite to face coming crisis.
People didn't understand EU constitution, many don't have a clue what EU does and how it works, many don't care. This is very unfortunate, because we need strong international cooperation to boost up renewables, build reliable rail connections between countries, keep supporting locally produced food and provide legal and economic base for more efficient common market. Providing information to EU citizens is imo the most important task right now..

Also, common EU foreign policy would significantly help member countries to get better access to resources outside europe and strengthen our influence.. EU is the biggest world economy, but on the diplomatic field, divisions are often too visible to get appropriate influence..
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Re: Europe: Balkanisation or.......???

Unread postby Njegosh » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 14:32:08

Licho
I agree with your sentiments completely,I just do not consider the European Bureaucracy a viable and sound option for any sollutions regarding the far-longterm improvements necesary to combat the upcoming degradation in our quality of life
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The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby Euric » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 19:42:47

The present stand-off between Russia and the Ukraine over the price of a cubic metre of gas effects more then just the two countries. Since the gas pipeline supplying Western Europe with gas is effected, shutting off the gas to the Ukraine also shuts off the gas to the EU.

Russia is becoming a growing energy supplier and relies heavily on the income it earns from the EU, especially the Western portion. However, standing between Russia and its paying customers are its former provinces and satellites that broke free after the revolutions in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Both Russia and the EU must now realize these states present a big problem. The satellite states are now part of the EU, but still are independent in some policies that can go against the policies for the greater good of the EU. The Ukraine and Belarus are potential troublemakers for Russian business deals with the EU.

Thus it is in my firm belief that both leaders of Russia and the EU will work to end any future potential problems similar to the Russian-Ukrainian spat effecting the economies of either Russia or the EU.

To do this, Russia and the EU will have to end the existence of the nations that are wedged between them. Russian will have to annex both Belarus and the Ukraine and the EU will have to evolve quickly into a nation, dissolving its internal borders and recreating new euro-regions.

A common military of the EU, plus that of Russia would be needed to secure the free flow of goods and energy across the Russian EU border. Thus possibly within the next ten years, there will only be two countries in Europe, the EU and Russia. The rest will be gone.

Both Russia and the EU will have to become super powers to assure their ability to secure their mutual interests. Turkey will have to be admitted to the EU in order to secure oil and gas flows from Iraq and Iran.

There may be some initial resistance from within, from nationalists, but they will be strongly suppressed. The EU and Russia will have no choice to do such a thing if they are going to be able to secure the free flow of both energy and manufactured goods across each others border.

Does anyone else see this as a realistic scenario?
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Re: The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby JayBee » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 19:52:50

Euric wrote:Does anyone else see this as a realistic scenario?


No I do not.

The EU a super power? What, with all the loopy pacifists that run it?

Russia to become a power again, with a flea bitten army where the soldiers sell their arms and ammo on the black market to Chechen rebels?

Look to the east for your next super power.

The Ukraine et al will do just fine.

A direct gas link is to be built from Russia to Germany and that will bypass problem countries anyway. The EU pacifists like spending money where a good old fashioned war would have done in the past.
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Re: The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby backstop » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 19:59:10

Euric -

what seems to me realistic is the additinal pipeline now planned from Russia to Germany under the Baltic, plus perhaps another one running across Poland. This new capacity negates the present problem with Ukraine being (falsely?) accused of tapping NG sold to EU countries.

In the longer term, I'd agree that greater coherence among European nations is foreseeable, if, and only if, we elect a leadership that encourages the public to recognize the essential benefits of international co-operation to endure the coming Powerdown.

The alternative is IMV one of a Powercrunch, and is of fragmentation, decline, and, potentially, subjugation.

regards,

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Re: The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby lutherquick » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 20:05:15

Dear Euric,

Yes, something like what you describe will happen.

First, think about the Baltic Sea pipeline that will bypass EU member countries have have low GDP (old easter countries). The pipeline is needed because I believe long term, these countries will produce little and transit fees will be too much.

Second, Russia will not ANEX anyone, because when you anex, then you need to take care of them... Why the heck would Russia want to subsidize Ukraine?

As for Belarus, they are a better partner. The new Union between Belarus and Russia will work well...

Ultimatly nations that consume too much energy will have curency collaps... I think the Euro and the dollar will tank hard... The Yuan and the Ruble will grow in value... this will happen once people realize trading in Euro or $ for oil is pointless... Buy and sell oil in Ruble, it mkaes more sence...

And finaly, Russia's economy is far more deversified than any ENERGY producing nation... No other nation has the intelect and capbility of miltary products, space, IT, consumer, auto, finance... Russia has a long way to go, but so much was done in the last 6 years...

nothing will stop her now... she has the land, the defense, the energy and the future... The EU and America will shrink, because of ENERGY...
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Re: The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby Fishman » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 20:34:50

Despite all the liberal ranting about America and it's fragility, it seem to me the European face a fare more grim energy situation. With one flip of the switch Europe looked like it might go cold for the winter. Being dependent on one country (Russia) for the NG gives the Russians enormous power. We at least depend on two countries for ours, Mexico and Canada, with a little of our own.
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Re: The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby waegari » Tue 03 Jan 2006, 05:55:08

The only chance Europe would stand in the face of peak oil and all its ramifications would indeed be a stronger European Union, but... ever since the majority of my fellow compatriots voted off the EU Constitution there is little chance it will happen in time.

After the referendum Dutch political parties decided on having a general public debate about Europe. Yet, after some months this debate was silently canceled. Commentators in the press, whose main point of interest seems to be dirty faced Maroccans, didn't even respond to this. So I would suppose that at best the EU is going to be a topic for the next general elections, which will be held in 2007. At least up until that time nothing will happen, nothing will change.

I'll tell you what sort of folk decided on the fate of Europe..
Around the time of the Costitution referendum a television report showed a bunch of Dutch folk who had built almost extravagant holiday villas in the Czech Republic. They were really having a ball, there, living on the cheap. Now those selfsame folks would be voting Nay, and for what reason? They were afraid of Poles taking away their jobs back home... That sort of egotist short sighted neo-colonialist behaviour has at least partly decided over the fate of Europe. I never was a fan of this whole referendum idea, and it has only gotten worse.
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Re: The end of the European mini-states

Unread postby sameu » Tue 03 Jan 2006, 13:02:43

either the EU will be strong enough when po happens and this will be an advantage for general survival, or it won't and then it will fall into an 'every state for its own'
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Eastern Europe set for troubling spring

Unread postby dorlomin » Sun 18 Jan 2009, 08:46:48

Link to guardian

Economic hardship is falling hard on the new accession states as they find many jobs being cut and economies wrecking. There have already been riots out there (Vilnius I think).

I'd guess there will be a strong sence of disenchantment with the core EU states further east.
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Re: Eastern Europe set for troubling spring

Unread postby Alcassin » Thu 22 Jan 2009, 11:14:28

We'll see.
There are elections to the European Parliament this year. Most people however are not going to blame EU, but their governments ;-)
Peak oil is only an indication and a premise of limits to growth on a finite planet.
Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
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Re: Eastern Europe set for troubling spring

Unread postby alokin » Thu 22 Jan 2009, 19:09:31

There have been lots of Demonstrations in Europe during the last 50 years and often there was violence involved like throwing stones or molotov coctails, old eggs etc.. But now here they are called riots or "civil unrest", that's a bit strange as demonstrations belong to democracy as a free press as elections and if demonstrations are big they are not always 100% peaceful. The Greek riots are maybe a step more, but, unless economic conditions worsens too much it won't question the state.

For me it is a bit strange that a lot of writers here see demonstrations as something one has to fear, rather than a healthy expression of a political thinking society.
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Re: Eastern Europe set for troubling spring

Unread postby Alcassin » Fri 23 Jan 2009, 19:22:06

alokin wrote:For me it is a bit strange that a lot of writers here see demonstrations as something one has to fear, rather than a healthy expression of a political thinking society.


Because they demand something, if they demand something economically - like higher wages - like in Poland during communist rule in 1956, 1970, 1976, 1980 (remeber, even Reagan supported Solidarity). They were of course "freedom struggles".
When Thatcher destroyed unions it was also "freedom struggle". Irony?

But when people demanded something now, in liberal democracy, it is called "populism". If you don't have anything to eat and you can't find job or your status worsens, then the only entities to blame is you or state, not the other institutions in your life.

For me demonstrations have to take place, it's not only expression of thought but also a barometer of societial pressure.
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Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
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