[bart]

Love your 10 points every American should know about energy!

BTW why not "every human being" instead of "every American"?

I hope you develop those ideas and post an article somewhere. Or write a book!

5. There is no substitute for conservation and efficiency if you can overcome Jevon's Paradox. (Good chance to make matters worse over time)

After discussions with you and others, I did some research on Jevon's Paradox. It is more widely known as the "Rebound Effect" and it applies to a wide variety of goods and services, not just energy. The magnitude of the rebound effect depends on many factors... in one article, I remember seeing figures like 10%-60%.

Apparently the Rebound Effect is the subject of academic study, so there are articles, conferences, etc. Understanding this effect and how to minimize it will be critical in the future, as you point out.

[MonteQuest]

Love your 10 points every American should know about energy!

BTW why not "every human being" instead of "every American"?

I hope you develop those ideas and post an article somewhere. Or write a book!

Thanks! And I took your suggestion and edited my post to "human being". Yes, if you look at my threads, you will see a theme rooted in these 10 points. A book might not be a bad idea...

[gg3]

To your list I would also add: an understanding of the meaning of exponential growth; and a basic grasp of probability & statistics.

The peasant who walks ten miles for firewood may also be ecologically illiterate, which translates to the same outcome as energy illiteracy, as their over-harvested (by hand tools) forest recedes further into desert.

Back a ways, interesting point, Link, re. voting for Bush because Kerry was AWOL more than 50% of the Senate votes i.e. not doing his primary job. That's probably one of the more thoughtful reasons I've seen for someone voting as they did (whichever direction).

Elsewhere on this board, someone (I forget his userID at the moment) suggested that Bush's PO strategy, and a large part of the underlying motive for Iraq, is to provoke a deliberate psuedo-peak early, thereby rallying the capital needed for massive energy investments (nuclear, wind, new vehicle technologies, etc.) over a decade-long period between the psuedo-peak and the onset of the real peak. Link, what are your thoughts about that?

Back a ways to "the real cost of fuel." Externalization of cost violates a core libertarian principle, specifically that of contracts between consenting adults. An externalized cost is a cost that is foisted upon an unwilling participant in someone else's deal. This is another place where both the neo-con Republicans and their Democrat equivalents are both engaged in hypocrisy of the worst kind: an agenda that is more correctly termed socialism for the well-connected interests.

And yet, we demand our cheap gasoline, even while complaining about the tax burden of empire, and mourning the hometown casualties as they are carried by solemn pallbearers.

[basketballjones]

Monte,

I love reading your posts, but mostly your initial topic posts. Is there any way to search just those?

As for your 10 point list, something on a slight tangent but from Albert Bartlett's lecture i couldn't help but feel was neccesarily related -

"Can you think of any problem, in any area of human endeavor, on any scale, from microscopic to global, whose long-term solution is in any demonstrable way aided, assisted, or advanced by further increases in population, locally, nationally, or globally?"

Of course, you could probably summarize it to - There's not a single problem the earth faces that will be solved by an increase in population.

[MonteQuest]

Monte,

I love reading your posts, but mostly your initial topic posts. Is there any way to search just those?

Thanks! Try this: Type "post subject" in the terms box, montequest in the author box, and click the "topics" button and set it to search all forums. It gives you a list mostly of my initial posts.

Monte

[gg3]

Basketballjones, yes, there is *one* problem in the world that's solved by increasing the population.

Apparently it's the most significant problem in the vast majority of humans' lives:

"How can I have an orgasm tonight without feeling guilty?"

Solve that one some other way, and you've saved the world.

[MonteQuest]

O is for Oil
What every American needs to know about our energy conundrum

For all the energy we use, and the importance of energy to our economic and political power, Americans are, by and large, energy illiterates. Few of us know how energy is produced, or where it comes from. More seriously, few of us know just how much pressure our global energy system is under. We have no idea how challenging it has become to produce adequate supplies of oil and other energy sources, or how urgently weneed to begin migrating to cleaner energy technologies and fuels -- or how difficult such a change will be.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/ ... il?pg=full

Americans Low "Energy IQ:"A Risk to Our Energy Future
http://www.neetf.org/roper/Roper2002.pdf

[MonteQuest]

Earlier in this thread, I posted the following; I think it is worth repeating.


10 things I think that every human being should know about energy.

1. A basic understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

2. In an energy system dominated by oil, energy independence is a myth.

3. The world's production of oil, gas, and coal will soon peak.

4. No "single" magic bullet or techno-fix will solve our energy crisis.

5. There is no substitute for conservation and efficiency if you can overcome Jevon's Paradox. (Good chance to make matters worse over time)

6. No matter what we do near term, we still have to deal with exponential population growth and the associated increase in energy consumption.

7. Our entire debt-based monetary system is designed for an infinite resource world.

8. We cannot buy primary science to fix the crisis.

9. Increased use of other fossil fuels to replace oil will accelerate global warming and climate change.

10. We can't control oil prices due to Peak Oil.

[Guest]

For me it quite often seems to be the case that most humans base their actions almost completely on emotions and instincts. After initiating countless of discussions with intelligent, balanced people about future of energy, where I deliberately kept my reasoning very "soft", I noticed a weird trend:

Even the most peaceful, nice people reacted with incredible violence and hostility to the faintest idea that they would ever have to give up ANYTHING when it comes to their lifestyles and personal wealth. The instinct to hoard money, food, and other property seems to be so deeply rooted into our psyche that we as a race will NEVER give up anything in short tem to save us in the long term.

Look at all the obese people in this world -we simply cannot help ourselves. The solution to your personal health in this case is simple, easy and obvious (ie. eat better and excercise) but our insticts get the better of us: we engorge oursevels with food until we burst.

My theory is that the problem of understanding the looming crisis in energy is not a question insufficient intelligence but the overwhelming need to act based on instincts and emotions, to fullfil immediate needs and forget about the future.

[Doly]

My theory is that the problem of understanding the looming crisis in energy is not a question insufficient intelligence but the overwhelming need to act based on instincts and emotions, to fullfil immediate needs and forget about the future.

Actually, this is only partially correct. Psychologists classify people in two categories: those who can delay gratification and those who can't. As a whole, those who can are more successful in life. But lately, our society has been rewarding those who can't.

[creg]

Our energy illiteracy in the U.S. seems,unfortunately, natural to me. Most of the reasons are refered to in this thread;low cost energies,high standard of living/economic sucess, specialization, and Christianity (futhering our disconnect from nature). These are our American way of life. My struggle is how to connect with co-workers,friends and family about peak oil. Virtually the only begin point I find is the high costs.
Amazingly, to even me,I was oil illiterate until about a year ago, even though involved in simple living,gardening,etc. And I have always had an eye for energy issues because my inital education was in engineering, co-oped in a big power plant and interviewed at a refinery. I guess this is specialization at it's worse. I attribute some of this problem to being too busy and complexity throughout our lives-which relates to specialization and knowledge, like how heavy water is to pump and carry. We just don't do the energy tasks like we all used to do. Illiterate we are-about to be educated!
P.S. Monte first of all thanks for your info on the economy-my weakest area. Also the book is needed but not sure how you'd sell it. I'd want it to cover simple machines;lever,etc.

[killJOY]

10 things I think that every human being should know about energy.

1. A basic understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

2. In an energy system dominated by oil, energy independence is a myth.

3. The world's production of oil, gas, and coal will soon peak.

4. No "single" magic bullet or techno-fix will solve our energy crisis.

5. There is no substitute for conservation and efficiency if you can overcome Jevon's Paradox. (Good chance to make matters worse over time)

6. No matter what we do near term, we still have to deal with exponential population growth and the associated increase in energy consumption.

7. Our entire debt-based monetary system is designed for an infinite resource world.

8. We cannot buy primary science to fix the crisis.

9. Increased use of other fossil fuels to replace oil will accelerate global warming and climate change.

10. We can't control oil prices due to Peak Oil.

Monte, may I copy this fabulous list and give it to my students? I could perhaps print out this page of the thread. We begin our peak oil writing project next week, and this list summarizes the issue pretty well.

[MonteQuest]

Yes, by all means, do.

[dooberheim]

I think another aspect of Christianity (especially the more fundamental forms) that causes problems with conservation is the belief that if you believe with all your heart and are steadfast, that God will take care of everything. Why worry if you have an all-powerful being watching your back?

Also, I think that even as generally mechnically minded as Americans are generally, the tendency is to follow the advice of someone whose opinion one respects (for whatever reasons), rather than understanding a problem on one's own and charting one's own course. We'd be a lot better off learning the ins and outs of our problems.

DK

[eric_b]

Earlier in this thread, I posted the following; I think it is worth repeating.


10 things I think that every human being should know about energy.

1. A basic understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

2. In an energy system dominated by oil, energy independence is a myth.

3. The world's production of oil, gas, and coal will soon peak.

4. No "single" magic bullet or techno-fix will solve our energy crisis.

5. There is no substitute for conservation and efficiency if you can overcome Jevon's Paradox. (Good chance to make matters worse over time)

6. No matter what we do near term, we still have to deal with exponential population growth and the associated increase in energy consumption.

7. Our entire debt-based monetary system is designed for an infinite resource world.

8. We cannot buy primary science to fix the crisis.

9. Increased use of other fossil fuels to replace oil will accelerate global warming and climate change.

10. We can't control oil prices due to Peak Oil.

Monte,

I must say I think the above is an excellent, succinct list.

I also agree with the premise of this topic, that 'energy illiteracy' is perhaps the
biggest impediment against a saner more sustainable energy policy.

In some ways we've succeeded too well, and people these days (at least in the US)
are so insulated from things they have no real appreciation or understanding regarding
energy.

Hirsch mentions this near the end of this audio interview:
http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2 ... 051117.mp3

(discussed in this thread)
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic14975-0-asc-0.html

[nethawk]

{Post of the week 2/23/06}

There are the people who believe that electricity is limitless and clean, and the only cost of using it is when the electric bill comes.

When I am boiling tea on the top of my wood stove, unplugging electronics after use, and glueing holes shut on my shower head, I know many other people who stand in the shower for an hour and a half, leave their lights on for three months straight, and use the window as a thermostat.

I was at someone's house one night, and on the ABC nightly news there was a segment on climate change. The concluding statement was something like "To best mitigate the effects of global warming, we need to stop the burning fossil fuels - oil, gas, and coal IMMEDIATELY." Meanwhile, their electric dryer was spinning with 3 articles of clothing in it, TVs were on that weren't being watched, and multiple unused incandescent bulbs were turned on.

We have a 400 megawatt coal-fired power plant in my town. There are people in my school who don't even know that the plant burns coal. In Environmental Science class, someone thought the plant might be hydro, since it was by the river.

Another problem...too many people think that their electricity originates at a dam. That might be a product of the social studies classes taught in middle school. They talk about Hoover Dam, which makes electricity, and the dams created by the Tennessee Valley Authority. No mention of coal plants.

[backstop]

Nethawk -

welcome to the site -

It sounds like you've some pretty under-informed people around where you are,
that are coming due to meet with something of a learning cliff.

I hope you have plans to "stand from under" when that surprise reaches them.


I think I saw the same report over here (BBC carries ABC for half an hour late at night)
and I wondered how many it would touch, and how many it bounce straight off,
as their cocoons of decades of indoctrination to the ideology of maximized consumption deflected it.

From your description of that mindless use of energy, few took it in I guess,
but some will have done, and US opinion is certainly shifting on that issue.

I'm struck by how that ideology of consumption also gets almost ignored in US discourse as compared with the attention paid to over-population.

Maybe this is predictable, in that the US is growing primarily by immigration, not by birth rate,
so them, over there, whoever they may be, can be blamed first for resource depletion, but not US.

The reality of course is that while British per capita consumption is around 10 x that of the average Bangladeshi, the US rate averages around 15.

But until we stop consuming so much more than our share, and impoverishing IIIW people in the process,
why should they forgo the security of having as many grandchildren as possible ?

And what effect do we have on their aspirations to consume when we export media soaps like "Dallas" around the world,
wantonly destroying cultures of thrift and of respect for the planet ?

My guess is that it would take a population of just two people, with an ideology that justified the holding of nuclear arsenals,
to end human life on Earth.

On the other hand, we cannot calculate reliably just what size of population could get by quite happily on this Earth,
if we shared the ideology of say Mahatma Ghandi.


There's a question here that too rarely gets asked - is the problem about a population boom ?
Or is it about that suicidal ideology of consumption, and its propagation across the world's population ?


Hoping this makes some kind of sense to you,

and noting that its good to converse with another who makes their tea on a woodstove,

regards,

Backstop

[Doly]

But until we stop consuming so much more than our share, and impoverishing IIIW people in the process,
why should they forgo the security of having as many grandchildren as possible ?

I hate that philosophy. Why should anybody do anything to improve our global situation, if other people aren't doing their share? That's the way we all go to hell. Don't blame exponential growth or lack of foresight for our problems, what really dooms us is exactly that attitude. "I can see there's a problem, but my neighbour is not doing anything, so I won't do anything either."

[backstop]

Doly -

I too have no respect for the outlook you describe - it is pathetic and self-destructive, particularly among those with the wealth to make choices.

It was precisely the dishonest excuse used by Bush & the US Oil lobby in preventing US ratification of Kyoto - you remember perhaps -

"It ain't global and it won't work!" - ?

But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the quote of my post that you selected.

For really poor people grandchildren always have been and remain today the one visible strategy they have for their family's security.

So don't blame the poor for a strategy of survival - however wrong it may be - its up to us, the wealthy nations, to set the example and to halt our impoverishment of their societies.

regards,

Backstop