[Newfie]

Yes, specific wording is needed.

But I think the concept is more than sound, is necessary.

WHY there is not more of a grass roots movement is disheartening.

[Pops]

Yes, specific wording is needed.

But I think the concept is more than sound, is necessary.

WHY there is not more of a grass roots movement is disheartening.

Because term limits does nothing about electing crazy people in the first place.

Pick your poison, both sides use equal amounts of gerrymandered districts, hyper-partisan primaries, dark corporate money, lowest denominator scare tactics. The difference is Ds try to get more people to vote and Rs try to get less.

If I was king I would make voting mandatory, a national holiday. No registration. Some simple ID requirement, DL, utility bill, bank statement, debit/credit card scan, etc. I can transfer thousands of dollars on my iphone at a stroke, I should be able to vote remotely. I'd make political advertising illegal until say 2 months before election. Bring back the equal time rule for all media. It would be ranked choice/ instant runoff method so no primary. All states vote the same day. Get rid of all the electoral college BS. Try that for 100 years and see what we get.

It won't happen, because the harder it is to vote the better the people who pay big bucks to stifle regulation like it.

[vtsnowedin]

I think the actual numbers are that we have more people registered to vote and actually voting then ever before so your cynicism is misplaced.
Our biggest real problem is the media taking sides and filtering information out that goes against their desired outcome.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Evil,

No one mentioned Trump.

If you want to start a thread comparing the two crooks be my guest. But it is hard to see what relevance it has here.

If you want I can seed a new thread with some of the above posts.

Not trying to shut down the conversation. Just move it if it is going to continue.

Thankyou for understanding.

Isn't the title of this thread "TrumpClinton Mash UP"?

So why wouldn't it be natural for someone to think of both Trump and Clinton in that context?

What am I missing here?

...

Disclosure: I hate both of them (re their behavior including lying), so I'm not trying to defend any politicians here, just understand what the "problem" is.

[Plantagenet]

If I was king I would make voting mandatory...

Why do you want people to vote who are so uninformed and so uninterested that they can't make the minimal effort required to vote on their own?

Really, IMHO the best service that people who are incredibly ignorant and incredibly unmotivated can provide to society at large is to not vote. Think about it....any vote that incredibly ignorant people cast if you forced them to vote would be based on nothing but their own incredible ignorance.


any vote that incredibly ignorant and apathetic people would cast ---if you had your way and you were able to force them to vote ---- would be based entirely on their own incredible ignorance.

Cheers!

[evilgenius]

Evil,

No one mentioned Trump.

If you want to start a thread comparing the two crooks be my guest. But it is hard to see what relevance it has here.

If you want I can seed a new thread with some of the above posts.

Not trying to shut down the conversation. Just move it if it is going to continue.

Thankyou for understanding.

Isn't the title of this thread "TrumpClinton Mash UP"?

So why wouldn't it be natural for someone to think of both Trump and Clinton in that context?

What am I missing here?

...

Disclosure: I hate both of them (re their behavior including lying), so I'm not trying to defend any politicians here, just understand what the "problem" is.

How I was talking about the long term affect of Russian propaganda upon the US, not its influence upon the 2016 election. There is a difference. The actual topic includes the other, but the other does not necessarily require people to think about what category it is a subcategory of. This thread was split off from the Ukraine war thread because it was off topic.

[evilgenius]

If I was king I would make voting mandatory...

Why do you want people to vote who are so uninformed and so uninterested that they can't make the minimal effort required to vote on their own?

Really, IMHO the best service that people who are incredibly ignorant and incredibly unmotivated can provide to society at large is to not vote. Think about it....any vote that incredibly ignorant people cast if you forced them to vote would be based on nothing but their own incredible ignorance.


any vote that incredibly ignorant and apathetic people would cast ---if you had your way and you were able to force them to vote ---- would be based entirely on their own incredible ignorance.

Cheers!

I think, at worst, it would simply increase the randomness involved. It would be like those kids in school who used to fill in their scantron sheets according to a pattern because those people would be, presumably, removed from even understanding their own issues. But I never sat next to anyone who did that whom I wouldn't trust to vote. I did have some classmates like that.

But the whole idea of excluding anyone is preposterous. And for just the reason I stated above. You can't really increase randomness as much as you will, more likely, get at the truth by extending the suffrage to all. And getting at the truth is what democracy seeks to do. It seeks to derive the will of the people from a snapshot in time.

I don't think the Republican desire to limit suffrage is as racist as many ascribe its motivation to, but that's only because the people who are supporting it are fixated upon their true reason, security, and are not thinking about the other things their ideas will impact upon. You can, also, see some racism at work because when it does come up, and they think about it, they won't back away. They double down. I don't think they should do that, when the severity of what they propose is put before them like that. They make racism part of the competitive nature of politics, when they do that. Since we have this very competitive, lock-step thing going on in the country right now, that is pertinent.

[Pops]

The 55.7% VAP [voting age persons] turnout in 2016 puts the U.S. behind most of its peers in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, most of whose members are highly developed democratic states. Looking at the most recent nationwide election in each OECD nation, the U.S. places 30th out of 35 nations for which data is available.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... r-turnout/

[Newfie]

Evil,

No one mentioned Trump.

If you want to start a thread comparing the two crooks be my guest. But it is hard to see what relevance it has here.

If you want I can seed a new thread with some of the above posts.

Not trying to shut down the conversation. Just move it if it is going to continue.

Thankyou for understanding.

Isn't the title of this thread "TrumpClinton Mash UP"?

So why wouldn't it be natural for someone to think of both Trump and Clinton in that context?

What am I missing here?

...

Disclosure: I hate both of them (re their behavior including lying), so I'm not trying to defend any politicians here, just understand what the "problem" is.

Those posts were made on another thread before I moved them over here.

So I tried to make a space for THIS commentary.

[Tanada]

If I was king I would make voting mandatory...

Why do you want people to vote who are so uninformed and so uninterested that they can't make the minimal effort required to vote on their own?

Really, IMHO the best service that people who are incredibly ignorant and incredibly unmotivated can provide to society at large is to not vote. Think about it....any vote that incredibly ignorant people cast if you forced them to vote would be based on nothing but their own incredible ignorance.


any vote that incredibly ignorant and apathetic people would cast ---if you had your way and you were able to force them to vote ---- would be based entirely on their own incredible ignorance.

Cheers!

I think, at worst, it would simply increase the randomness involved. It would be like those kids in school who used to fill in their scantron sheets according to a pattern because those people would be, presumably, removed from even understanding their own issues. But I never sat next to anyone who did that whom I wouldn't trust to vote. I did have some classmates like that.

But the whole idea of excluding anyone is preposterous. And for just the reason I stated above. You can't really increase randomness as much as you will, more likely, get at the truth by extending the suffrage to all. And getting at the truth is what democracy seeks to do. It seeks to derive the will of the people from a snapshot in time.

I don't think the Republican desire to limit suffrage is as racist as many ascribe its motivation to, but that's only because the people who are supporting it are fixated upon their true reason, security, and are not thinking about the other things their ideas will impact upon. You can, also, see some racism at work because when it does come up, and they think about it, they won't back away. They double down. I don't think they should do that, when the severity of what they propose is put before them like that. They make racism part of the competitive nature of politics, when they do that. Since we have this very competitive, lock-step thing going on in the country right now, that is pertinent.

But what if the truth is a large percentage of the population simply do not care who is officially in charge of the country unless they find national policy personally egregious to themselves or their belief structure? Right now if you get a state ID or Drivers License in any of the 50 states the "Motor Voter" rules require the clerk to ask if you want to be registered to vote. This artificially drove up the number of registered voters but had very little impact on the actual percentage who bother to vote. I have not missed a Federal election since I was 18 and eligible except once when I was sick and the race was no contest so it wasn't worth going in and exposing the poll workers to my germs. I almost always vote in the primaries because those are the votes with the most impacts and in decades of voting very little I was passionate about with the exception of state government term limits got passed.

Meanwhile all those people I went to High School and University with who didn't care enough to vote have the same government by bureaucracy I have. They gripe and moan just as much but they tell everyone who will listen their vote is meaningless so they can't be bothered. In reality if it is something they care about, like the 2008 Presidential election, people will line up around the block to vote so they can be part of a "historic" event. Otherwise they just ignore the government as much as they can get away with and go on about their lives.

I don't see many of them having much more or less satisfaction with the government than I have, I just think my vote is a responsibility and they do not. I also don't believe in slavery and forcing someone to vote when they don't care is to me tantamount to any other government over reach, a thing to be despised and if possible avoided. Telling people you are making them do something for their own good is denying them their right to act like an idiot adult if they so choose. If you are voting age and eligible to vote whether you do or not should be your decision, not the governments decision either for nor against. The governments only role should be to ensure you are eligible to vote and ensuring the votes are all counted properly and without bias.

[Newfie]

Tanada,

I was once much like you, now I don’t vote. But I let my Wife fill out my absenteed ballot that I sign. I don’t think my vote matters. She still does. So I give her something that costs me nothing.

There is a difference between thinking your vote does not matter and not caring. I care a great deal. And if a topic comes up where I feel my values are represented the. i will damn sure vote. But that has not happened since 2004 so I am not holding my breath.

My heartfelt belief is that very few candidates are in it for the good of society, they are mostly in it for their own personal gain; financial or ego. The difference between the R and D candidates is mostly just for show.

Obviously your opinion is different. I simply want to pint out that for this ONE person it is not indifferences or lazy. It is disgust with the existing political show.

Let me be just a bit more explicit:

I don’t care which party has vomited what dogs breakfast for the ticket. I would rather starve than try to gag down that mess. Trump or Hillary? NO.

If you press me I will tell how I REALLY feel! LOL

[evilgenius]

I don't actually agree with mandating voting. I agree with making it as easy as it can be. I think the driver's license thing, and things like that which get people registered are good because they allow people to participate who make a last minute decision to do so. Otherwise, the wisdom of the crowd probably works the same, so long as the original sample size is large enough, to determine what the will of the people is at any given moment in time.

There are other choices we can make as a democracy. One of those is to protect ourselves from what any one snapshot could do to us, assuming that the people are inflamed over some issue and aren't thinking clearly. That's why the US builds in constitutional protections.

The problem with thinking that your vote doesn't matter, though, has a harsh answer. It matters, to the degree that you are a part of a plurality. If your vote actually mattered as much as those who make this complaint lodge it, then they wouldn't be living in a democracy. Because a plurality does not guarantee that your point of view will be that of the people. If there are constitutional protections, it does guarantee that you won't be unreasonably stripped of one thing or another, but it doesn't guarantee that the hillbillies, bojacks, flintheads or neanderthals won't win. It doesn't guarantee the advance of civilization. That has to come with some marketing. The people have to be convinced.

Even the resolution of this last point is an evolving conundrum. Because the US sort of requires that the constitutional protections it provides be enumerated, specifically written and adopted into the constitution according to an accepted process. But the US is open to interpretation. It is because US society has proven that it evolves faster than the people can keep up with it in that official manner.

We let the courts decide what certain things mean. We let them because words change meaning over time, and what they mean is just as up to the will of the people as the specific rules that are given. The courts have, so far, been able to keep up. I think that's about to change, with abortion.

The hillbillies are about to claim some sort of victory there. It will very likely spark a wrestling match which they never dreamed was possible. Because, as it turns out, it is actually hard to amend the US Constitution. It is so hard that some people aren't guaranteed certain things, mostly having to do with personal autonomy, that other groups take for granted. It's a two thirds process. By definition, that is limiting to such groups of people. The nature of that is to protect the course of history, so that it remains continuous, but it also denies current reality, and how enlightenment can be like a seismic process sometimes, how it can make leaps when we expect it to crawl. But opening up that sort of process is also fraught with dangers that many people who want to whip others and themselves into a frenzy most often simply don't understand. That's my guess, anyway.

[Pops]

The way to eliminate the threat of democracy to those who have power and wealth is to limit voting as much as possible, see: trump, donald.

The easiest way to get there is to imply how ignorant and dishonest many people are, the other party particularly. Since the average person thinks they are above average intellectually and of the highest moral character, not to mention that god is on their side, they will quickly agree. Obviously it works.

Voting is the basic human right. Equal rights for all does not mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie.


Back in the day the sign read, "old enough to fight, old enough to vote". We still have a draft registration, it is mandatory because we think protecting the country is important. The same slogan applies. If fighting and dying at the whim of the government is deserving of mandate, then so should be voting. It is the minimum owed.

But whatever. Ain't going to happen. Our rot will continue. Perhaps trump will be reelected and we won't have to worry about being bothered after that
.

[Plantagenet]

Perhaps trump will be reelected and we won't have to worry about being bothered after that

Your naive faith in Trump is amusing.....and maybe in some fantasy world things will work out as you imagine.

However, back here in the real world we've got a serious problem going on right now in Ukraine.....

Right now a showdown is going on between stupid-and-senile-old Joe Biden and crazy-like-a-fox Adolph Putin for the fate of Ukraine and the fate of Europe beyond that.

I pray to god Biden is up to the task, but there hasn't been much sign of it so far.

It seems to me Putin has run rings around Biden so far.....and to support my case I link to an editorial just published in the NY Times suggesting that Putin is now changing to a winning strategy in Ukraine. The NYTImes editorial suggests that Pootie is on track to win in Ukraine..

And as to what happens after Pootie dismembers Ukraine.....IMHO most likely Pootie will continue to take advantage of Biden's weakness to push further into Europe. Just today Russia sent jet fighters into Swedish airspace....and the Russian jet fighters were armed with nuclear bombs. Coming soon after Pootie warned Sweden and Finland not to join NATO, the threat from Pootie to do more damage to Europe after they dismember Ukraine couldn't be clearer.

NYTImes: what-if-putin-didnt-miscalculate



Cheers!

[AdamB]

Have you noticed that a few years ago we had flash mobs hitting mall courts and doing Irish dancing or doing a great performance of the 1812 overture and today a flash mob smashes into a high end store and rips off all the merchandise left exposed on the shelves? How times have changed!

Indeed. Do you think when Biden leaves office he'll be so upset about it that he attempts a coupe, or will he be an American that doesn't believe Putin's word is worth more than the entirety of the American intelligience services?

[vtsnowedin]

Have you noticed that a few years ago we had flash mobs hitting mall courts and doing Irish dancing or doing a great performance of the 1812 overture and today a flash mob smashes into a high end store and rips off all the merchandise left exposed on the shelves? How times have changed!

Indeed. Do you think when Biden leaves office he'll be so upset about it that he attempts a coupe, or will he be an American that doesn't believe Putin's word is worth more than the entirety of the American intelligience services?

Are you referring to the 51 Experts that erroneously declared Hunter's laptop a Russian disinformation plant?
Biden wont even remember he ever was president a week after he leaves office much less care about a second term. The media and the deep state on the other hand will howl with rage if a Republican wins the white house (any Republican not just Trump) and will immediately begin a campaign to sabotage their presidency.

[AdamB]

Do you think when Biden leaves office he'll be so upset about it that he attempts a coupe, or will he be an American that doesn't believe Putin's word is worth more than the entirety of the American intelligience services?

Are you referring to the 51 Experts that erroneously declared Hunter's laptop a Russian disinformation plant?

No. I don't pay much attention to run of the mill political corruption, or "advantage by relationship" when it comes to Presidents, I figure it comes with the territory. So Javanka I give a break to, just as I do Billy Carter. Whether or not Hunter is taking advantage of his position strikes me as likely as a default position, and with luck he'll get away with it, or not. Same as Javanka.

Biden wont even remember he ever was president a week after he leaves office much less care about a second term.

Oh...you and I know that A) he isn't that bad and B) if he was he would still know better than to think bleach inside the body works on respiratory diseases. Or bright lights. Look at it this way, between Jill or a Yugoslavian fashion model being the backup, I'll take the PhD rather than someone who hasn't even been an American for 2 decades yet and who's sum total in terms of intellectual capabilities is auditioning for the next pretty person slot on Price Is Right.

The media and the deep state on the other hand will howl with rage if a Republican wins the white house (any Republican not just Trump) and will immediately begin a campaign to sabotage their presidency.

...oh...oh....deep state? I've gotta ask VT, how far down that rabbit hole are you, in real life? As far as sabotaging a Presidency, how about what the Tea Party spent years trying to do? No deep state in the shadows required there, it was all out in the open. Same as the current Republicans in Congress. And you want to pretend it isn't part of the game now, and one side invented it before the other? I think we can go back to Newt as the origin of our current political schism, and again, that ain't no deep state, it is the party of Lincoln deciding that the only thing that matters is winning. It is unfortunate that our politics aren't about the people anymore. Or if you want to stick to the lie once sold by Republicans, "freedom" and low taxes and less government interference whenever possible.

[vtsnowedin]

This is not quite a Clinton vs. Trump mashup but this is as good a place to post this as any. A jury has acquitted two of those charged of plotting to kidnap Michigan's Governor.

GRAND RAPIDS, MI – A federal jury didn’t find four men suspected of conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer guilty Friday.

Brandon Michael-Ray Caserta, 33, of Canton, and Daniel Harris, 24, of Lake Orion, were found not guilty of conspiring to kidnap, a potential life offense.

The jury was hung on conspiracy charges against Barry Croft Jr., 46, of Bear, Delaware, Adam Fox, 38, of Wyoming.


https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids ... her-2.html

[Newfie]

Huh! Bear, Delaware. Next town over.

[vtsnowedin]

Huh! Bear, Delaware. Next town over.

It is a small small world.