[holmes]

I didnt mean anything I said about u. Im just being angry. Well Im getting sick of the culture of growth. We cant stop u know. Thats scary. Its like we are doing BAU becuase we cant do anything else. Its seriously a suicide culture. capitalism, communism, fascism, self loathing, feminazis, suffrage screamers, etc... Its suicidal and they are palying around with my life. Taking away the freedom to take care of myself. There is a serious mental disorder here. Its getting ugly. I refuse to hate and sacrifice myself for others that are jsut as fusked up as all the rest of us. weird shit.

[rogerhb]

This is really a pathology with you rog, you might need medical help.

It was qualified with "average".

[PenultimateManStanding]

I didnt mean anything I said about u. Im just being angry. Well Im getting sick of the culture of growth. We cant stop u know. Thats scary. Its like we are doing BAU becuase we cant do anything else. Its seriously a suicide culture. capitalism, communism, fascism, self loathing, feminazis, suffrage screamers, etc... Its suicidal and they are palying around with my life. Taking away the freedom to take care of myself. There is a serious mental disorder here. Its getting ugly. I refuse to hate and sacrifice myself for others that are jsut as fusked up as all the rest of us. weird shit.

I suppose my concerns about language sound quaint and old-fashioned. If we're all going down the drain, then it doesn't really matter. I'm just holding on to what I value.

[rwwff]

Noam Chomsky and I knew how things would turn out....way back on Sept.12, 2001. (the aftermath)
America should get out and be made to PAY for their War Crimes.

"PAY"???, you've got to be kidding. The only power on the Earth that has proven itself willing to use nuclear weapons against civilian population centers, being forced to pay for something?

I think someone's taken a massive leap off the reality tree on that one.

Should we get out? Morally, sure. Strategically? No freakin way; 200,000 troops, incredibly equipped, positioned within striking distance of much of the world's oil production capacity. You couldn't buy that kind of strategic advantage if you tried.

Every American taxpayer should have a lien placed againist them and their heirs.

We already do, its denominated in dollars, and when we get tired of it, we'll elect reps that will turn on the presses.

Like making the Germans pay...many years after the crime.

Germans didn't have nukes; and were defeated militarily to the point of governmental irradication. Name me a country that is willing and able to suffer on that scale to undo the United States.

Or giving Ancestral lands back...hundreds of years after the theft.

Spoils of war. I suppose those tribes that took their lands in war, would be forced to give them back to the tribe they took them from? Repeat ad infinitum?

America should be made to pay.

Shoulda/Woulda/Coulda are impotent when applied to a Shall Not issued by a country willing to turn cities into craters just to save a bit of domestic blood and money.

This is the only way to teach the Capitalist a lesson.
Hit them where it truly hurts.

Those that are able, do. Those that are not able (including myself), talk. The giant has the biggest stick, and is holding a dead man's switch to a world-killer.

The problem, of course, is that big, toothy grin he's got on his face.

[PenultimateManStanding]

This is funny, rwwff. Raph was chiding me about how those who can't do teach, and here you are giving both barrels of the Machiavellian/Nietzschian shotgun. It's better than Team America.

[rwwff]

This is funny, rwwff. Raph was chiding me about how those who can't do teach, and here you are giving both barrels of the Machiavellian/Nietzschian shotgun. It's better than Team America.

I love doomer fantasy as much as anyone, but I just get really annoyed when anyone suggests that a major power, in the modern era, would be forced to do anything. The US, Europe, China, and Russia are beyond force. Israel and India are close, which makes them dangerous

These major powers, can and do undergo internal reorganizations of various sorts, but there can be no external forcings in such situations.

[PenultimateManStanding]

These major powers, can and do undergo internal reorganizations of various sorts, but there can be no external forcings in such situations.

yes, I hear you. Let's just hope we keep finding new oil supplies, like we read about today. When the supplies run out is when the primate teeth come out

[rogerhb]

Every forum in which I have ever delved always seems to have an irrational, rabid liberal who is obliged to write 10 paragraphs in defense of liberalism if any illiberal idea is even vaguely alluded to, and, alas, I fear that for PO.com, it may be you.

I'm not sure what I'm defending, especially when the US has corrupted political language so badly. I am at a loss at why people in the US are so against their own interests.

[Miki]

"Americans love to stay blind. They think if they close their eyes long enough, the blood stains in their hands will evaporate, so that they can convince themselves again of how righteous they are."

I've got some bad news for you Sunshine (I'm an older American). . .

Hi Gideon,

I like the way you organize your thoughts. You sound like a calm wise person (no saracasm implied). Not that I agree with everything you've said, but I like the logic and insightfullness behind your opinions.

Americans, with few exceptions, are poorly educated and abysmally unworldly. The average American can't differentiate Iran from Iraq.
So the point is, your post about how Americans have blood on their hands and so on and so forth looks good on paper, but misses the fact that

I am the sunshine who posted that . I used to agree with you 100% until I came across this forum and a few folks here told me that many Americans are fully aware of what their government does and fully agree to it. Rwwff even claims that 60% of the folks who oppose Bush do so because they expect a more bloody "war on terror" in which full military force is employed.

I still believe Americans are greatly ignorant about international matters and thus are not bloodthirsty, but there are two things that I can't reconcile with that thought:
a-Americans are not interested in knowing what their government is doing, and thus they are partially responsible for the crimes their government commits because they don't even bother to check what is going on. Some sins are commited by commission; others are commited by omision. Either way one is to be held accountable (to one extent or the other).
b-Even if Americans are ignorant, how can anyone with an average IQ not realize that civilians are being slaughtered en masse in the ME thanks to American military interventions? Did Americans think that all the bombs dropped on Lebanese residential areas only fell on Hisballah's offices?

[qwerty]

"Americans love to stay blind. They think if they close their eyes long enough, the blood stains in their hands will evaporate, so that they can convince themselves again of how righteous they are."

I've got some bad news for you Sunshine (I'm an older American). . .

Hi Gideon,

I like the way you organize your thoughts. You sound like a calm wise person (no saracasm implied). Not that I agree with everything you've said, but I like the logic and insightfullness behind your opinions.

Americans, with few exceptions, are poorly educated and abysmally unworldly. The average American can't differentiate Iran from Iraq.
So the point is, your post about how Americans have blood on their hands and so on and so forth looks good on paper, but misses the fact that

I am the sunshine who posted that . I used to agree with you 100% until I came across this forum and a few folks here told me that many Americans are fully aware of what their government does and fully agree to it. Rwwff even claims that 60% of the folks who oppose Bush do so because they expect a more bloody "war on terror" in which full military force is employed.

I still believe Americans are greatly ignorant about international matters and thus are not bloodthirsty, but there are two things that I can't reconcile with that thought:
a-Americans are not interested in knowing what their government is doing, and thus they are partially responsible for the crimes their government commits because they don't even bother to check what is going on. Some sins are commited by commission; others are commited by omision. Either way one is to be held accountable (to one extent or the other).
b-Even if Americans are ignorant, how can anyone with an average IQ not realize that civilians are being slaughtered en masse in the ME thanks to American military interventions? Did Americans think that all the bombs dropped on Lebanese residential areas only fell on Hisballah's offices?

America's aren't just ignorant, they blatantly don't give a shit.

They are more worried on the next piece of ass, or the next Futbol game, or souping up their car and all the like.

They are too busy climbing the pyramid sheme ladder killing each other off to get to the top where there is a ever shrinking pool of 'american dream' and house with picket white fence, luxury cars, trophy wife, too busy playing the stock market and pussy markets to give a damn to differentiate between:

1) bombs were only dropped on Lebanese offices

2) bombs were dropped on Lebanese children

The fact of the matter is, if Americans found out that 9/11 was planned by US government, and they simultanoeuisly found out about peak oil issues, they would pat george on the back because that means what shrub did was help them live the american lie longer.

That;s all they care about. Pork. Ass. Money. Beef. Oil. Gluttony.
DONT EXPECT OTHERWISE.

And that's who they elect. And that's want America as a nation represents.

[Miki]

You use war and war-crime synonymously. Come on now. War is hell, everybody knows that. This is just rhetoric, Miki. I know you are capable of more reasoned posts. Here I try to do some American soul-searching and all you can do is bash.

PMS,

1-I'm not equating war with war crime. I'm just pointing out that the label "war" has been used by the neocons to mask and justify state-sponsored terrorism. An atack is either "war" or "terrorism" depending on whether the target is a US ally or not, or depending on whether the atack benefits US interests or opposes them.

2-Precisely because wars are hell, they should be avoided unless it's in self-defense. That's what the international law and the UN and the human rights rhetorics that the US boasts about indicate. But the US only respects human rights when that respect is in line with its hegemonic agendas. Take the case of Lebanon and Irak. The whole world opposed both wars; the UN labeled the Irak war as illegal before the US even invaded. Are those atacks justified and legal just because the US calls them "war"? Or are they war crimes? If a war is illegal, aren't all the actions of that war illegal?

3-Most of the US's military interventions in the world have not been in self-defense. Their only purpose has been to control world resources and maintain American hegemony by precluding other countries from defending their own interests. Just because Americans call them "wars" that doesn't mean they are ethical or legal.

If you like the ethics of "might is right", that's fine with me. But let's call things by their name. When you use war as a way to achieve political aims, that's called state-sponsored terrorism.

[Tanada]

The more things change the more they stay the same. The disconnect between soldiers and politicians has been growing ever stronger since the end of World War II, back then everyone knew why we were fighting and what we were fighting for. Now most Americans do not have a solid answer for either why or what because everyone knows the politicians are lying about their motives and few believe we are fighting for America's best future any more. A lot of young people are so insulated from the real world they don't even realize others there age are out there right now getting shot at in Afghanistan. As for Iraq, does it matter that those getting shot at are now mostly 'government contractors' instead of official soldiers? Does hiring mercenaries make us better people, or worse?