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Conservation, Doom, Madness

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 05 Nov 2005, 12:31:41

LaurentD wrote: However, since the 1973 energy crisis, we have also greatly reduced our dependency on oil.


Efficiencies have contributed somewhat, but for the most part, the US per capita energy consumption has dropped because we have out-sourced much of our industrial production to other countries. Cars, textiles, maungfactured goods, etc. The world's overall energy use has gone up. Your point is a dog that won't hunt.

Not to mention, we have increased oil imports.

Also, with a likely recession or even a depression, there will be massive demand destruction for everything that is not critical. That is why I can hardly see how we would not have enough oil to feed ourselves AND to build an economy based on new energies.


And again, peak oil is about price.

Massive demand destruction means massive unemployment. How will you buy your food? How will you repay debt? Where will capital for investment come from?

Will Demand Destruction ever Outpace Demand?
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Byron100 » Sat 05 Nov 2005, 12:49:10

And again, peak oil is about price.

Massive demand destruction means massive unemployment. How will you buy your food? How will you repay debt? Where will capital for investment come from?


What do you think of this - if the huge sums spent on oil could somehow be "recaptured" by way of windfall taxes and the like and the monies rebated to the population at large to pay for food, mortgages, etc, could this be a "patchwork" solution to prevent total collaspe of the economy? After all the money has to go somewhere....
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby LaurentD » Sat 05 Nov 2005, 14:06:14

MonteQuest wrote:Efficiencies have contributed somewhat, but for the most part, the US per capita energy consumption has dropped because we have out-sourced much of our industrial production to other countries. Cars, textiles, maungfactured goods, etc. The world's overall energy use has gone up. Your point is a dog that won't hunt.

Not to mention, we have increased oil imports.


What you're saying is true.
Nonetheless, we do not need that much more efficiency.
In 2000, there were 6 billion people on Earth, let's say in 2050 it's 8 billions.
So we have:
2000 = 26 GB/Year for 6 billion people = 4.33 GB/Year/Billion people
2050 = 17 GB/Year for 8 billion people = 2.15 GB/Year/Billion people

So we need to divide our oil consumption by 2 from 2000 levels. It sounds a lot, and it's certainly a challenge, but we have 40 years to achieve it.

Here is an example, cars.
Our gas mileage will without a doubt be at least multiplied by 3 from 25 miles a gallon to 75 miles a gallon. Sounds reasonable for 2050. I don't see how we could not live using cars at least 2 times less (for example by living closer to work)
So we can easily live with 6 times less gas for our cars.

That along with a recession could be enough to get as much oil for everything else as we had in 2000.
If it's not, then we can still do the same with planes, and use more nuclear power plants and more (hopefully clean) coal.
If it's still not enough, we can live with less fertilizers, and a more oil-efficient agriculture. Don't forget that up to only 5 years ago oil was less than 15$ a barrel. Let today's price do its work, agriculture can and will become more efficient.

And again, peak oil is about price.

Massive demand destruction means massive unemployment. How will you buy your food? How will you repay debt? Where will capital for investment come from?

Will Demand Destruction ever Outpace Demand?


There will probably be a depression, I do not argue with that.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby GoIllini » Sat 05 Nov 2005, 14:49:21

LaurentD wrote:There will probably be a depression, I do not argue with that.
Will we starve and live nude in the forest? I don't think so.


I'm not certain that Peak Oil (alone) will cause a depression. Depressions just happen. They tend to happen more often when the government isn't managing the economy. Perhaps recent government irresponsibility and massive consumer debt might get us into a bit of trouble.

Peak Oil, alone, is going to cause a very nasty version of the '70s. Gas shortages, high gas prices, stagnant markets, nutjobs running around claiming the world's going to end (We had everything from environmentalist doomers to energy doomers to "The Antichrist is Coming" doomers; today, we make jokes out of them.), and a tough job market in the manufacturing sector.

I think that America's debt will be somewhat offset by the fact that we are incredibly defensive against a recession in the manufacturing sector. Our economy rests on food production, medicine, coal production, construction, and the service sector. That stuff isn't going anywhere for a while.

I think we need to characterize the effects of Peak Oil as a very serious energy shock. I mean, I think it's entirely possible that if Peak Oil hits in 2015 and energy prices stay high, we might see 20-30 years of the '70s, starting now, as the U.S. transitions to a combination of renewables and nuclear. Indeed, I think this situation is more likely than the starvation in the U.S. and nuclear war scenarios combined.

To characterize it as a depression, first off, isn't specific enough. We've had depressions where energy became cheap, for example. Second off, the idea of an energy paradigm shift causing a major depression is entirely unprecedented in history. Maybe we should go on something we've had experience with: an oil supply shock causing stagflation, lousy job markets in the manufacturing sector, and a bunch of end of the world freaks running around. Perhaps we should take that situation and extrapolate based on the severity we think P.O. will have.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 05 Nov 2005, 15:07:08

GoIllini wrote: Our economy rests on food production, medicine, coal production, construction, and the service sector. That stuff isn't going anywhere for a while.


No, our economy rests upon borrowing money from the Chinese and using it to sell our houses to each other. Then we visit the refi-ATM for money to go to Wal-mart. Wal-mart sends the money back to China from whom we borrow it again.

Hardly a sustainable arrangement. :roll:
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 05 Nov 2005, 15:15:32

A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Omnitir » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 05:22:31

MonteQuest wrote:Jevon's Paradox; Death by Conservation


Yes but Jevon’s paradox is only relevant when there is abundant cheap energy, in other words – on the up slope. As soon as we hit peak and demand begins to outpace supply, any conservation effort does not free up resources to allow an increase of consumption, but will free up resources to meet demand.

Jevon’s paradox is not a physical law but a phenomenon based on observation. And logic should tell us that it does not apply on the down slope.

Therefore as the increasing demand gradually exceeds supply, we can meet demand by gradually meeting the gap through conservation efforts. Given the massive amount of wasted energy currently in the system, surely conservation efforts will allow this process to continue for a considerable time.

MonteQuest wrote:what about the new comers?
Where will the energy come from to clothe, house, and feed them?

In such circumstances described above (where we have no choice but to conserve), how many new comers can we expect? Growth will slow down. Yes, that is called a recession, but it is not a grand depression.

The main point is that post peak, thanks to the massive amount of conservation possible in the current system, there will be a considerable time period between when the reality of the end of the oil age hits the mainstream, and when conservation efforts can no longer meet demand. Over this time period, there will be considerable motivation on all fronts to make a transition off oil.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby 0mar » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 05:40:27

It's not about doing more with less.

When demand outpaces supply by even a few percent, very few people can afford the product. Within 3-5 years of Peak Oil, oil will be triple digits.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby DefiledEngine » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 06:03:08

Therefore as the increasing demand gradually exceeds supply, we can meet demand by gradually meeting the gap through conservation efforts. Given the massive amount of wasted energy currently in the system, surely conservation efforts will allow this process to continue for a considerable time.


Possibly, although the system may be very dependant on waste. It's still going to mean lots of layoffs.
And I'm not sure I understand the stuff about the upslope. If we start conserving, we're going to find more energy efficient ways to use oil, which may lead to oil getting cheaper (energy use shrinking faster than supplies) which going to lead to us easing off and starting to use more of the energy efficient stuff (demand increasing), leading to oil prices shooting off again (and oil getting depleted faster). This doesn't necessarily require an increasing energy supply, just a quicker demand decrease than supply decrease, no??

The main point is that post peak, thanks to the massive amount of conservation possible in the current system, there will be a considerable time period between when the reality of the end of the oil age hits the mainstream, and when conservation efforts can no longer meet demand. Over this time period, there will be considerable motivation on all fronts to make a transition off oil.


So, where going to shred excess waste by concerving, then we're going to shed even more waste (if that's possible) by allocating resources to find out and implement solutions to a shrinking energy base? All this without any problems? Sorry, seems a tad on the optimistic side.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby bobcousins » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 08:04:56

Omnitir wrote:Yes but Jevon’s paradox is only relevant when there is abundant cheap energy, in other words – on the up slope. As soon as we hit peak and demand begins to outpace supply, any conservation effort does not free up resources to allow an increase of consumption, but will free up resources to meet demand.

Jevon’s paradox is not a physical law but a phenomenon based on observation. And logic should tell us that it does not apply on the down slope.


Your logic is wrong. Conserving when there is abundant energy has little effect on the price, so the effect is small. Conversely, conserving when supply is short will have a bigger effect on the price, so in fact the effect will be greater.

The main point is that post peak, thanks to the massive amount of conservation possible in the current system, there will be a considerable time period between when the reality of the end of the oil age hits the mainstream, and when conservation efforts can no longer meet demand. Over this time period, there will be considerable motivation on all fronts to make a transition off oil.


You really don't get it do you? Demand reduces when price is too high. 'To meet demand' means reducing price, i.e. making it available to people who can't otherwise afford it. The only reason massive conservation will meet demand is because it reduces prices. Reduced prices will deter investment in alternatives.

Unless you are expecting the free market for oil to replaced with a command economy, which seems unlikely.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Byron100 » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 09:08:15

You really don't get it do you? Demand reduces when price is too high. 'To meet demand' means reducing price, i.e. making it available to people who can't otherwise afford it. The only reason massive conservation will meet demand is because it reduces prices. Reduced prices will deter investment in alternatives.

Unless you are expecting the free market for oil to replaced with a command economy, which seems unlikely.


Care to explain why a command economy is unlikely? If oil soars to $200 a barrel and commerce is brought to a grinding halt, you can bet your bottom dollar that the government will be doing something to solve the problem (even if it is truly unsolvable). I can easily see the government nationalizing all energy resources and doling it out via a rationing system, and finding a way to "recapture" the extremely high prices being paid for energy to meet the population's need for food, housing, etc.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 11:12:45

Omnitir wrote: In such circumstances described above (where we have no choice but to conserve), how many new comers can we expect?


Due to population demographics we can expect the population to continue to grow for 50 more years at zero population growth. Each couple has two kids.

The main point is that post peak, thanks to the massive amount of conservation possible in the current system, there will be a considerable time period between when the reality of the end of the oil age hits the mainstream, and when conservation efforts can no longer meet demand. Over this time period, there will be considerable motivation on all fronts to make a transition off oil.


Maybe lots of motivation, but few jobs due to conservation, deflation, and a lack of capital for investment with less than zero for a savings rate. We would have to borrow from the Chinese to fund the transition or hyperinflate the currency by printing it.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby bobcousins » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 11:38:34

Byron100 wrote:Care to explain why a command economy is unlikely? If oil soars to $200 a barrel and commerce is brought to a grinding halt, you can bet your bottom dollar that the government will be doing something to solve the problem (even if it is truly unsolvable). I can easily see the government nationalizing all energy resources and doling it out via a rationing system, and finding a way to "recapture" the extremely high prices being paid for energy to meet the population's need for food, housing, etc.


OK, you guys tell me. Is the USA ready to embrace socialism?
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Byron100 » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 11:45:48

Maybe lots of motivation, but few jobs due to conservation, deflation, and a lack of capital for investment with less than zero for a savings rate. We would have to borrow from the Chinese to fund the transition or hyperinflate the currency by printing it.


Can you tell me why we wouldn't find a way to "recapture" the vast amount of monies going into the oil sector? I mean, that money does have to go somewhere, right?

But oil money or no, I think printing dollars to pay for massive alternative energy projects will be the way to go...inflation be damned. Solves the peasky problem of all those danged mortgage and debt payments, too. Another thing that I see that the US might attempt doing is convincing other major economies (Japan, Europe) to inflate their currencies in lockstep with ours, creating some sort of "false equibrium" that could enable the transition off of fossil fuels even in the face of global economic contraction.

(Just trying to put an optimistic spin on things, is all :-D )
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Byron100 » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 11:48:28

bobcousins wrote:
Byron100 wrote:Care to explain why a command economy is unlikely? If oil soars to $200 a barrel and commerce is brought to a grinding halt, you can bet your bottom dollar that the government will be doing something to solve the problem (even if it is truly unsolvable). I can easily see the government nationalizing all energy resources and doling it out via a rationing system, and finding a way to "recapture" the extremely high prices being paid for energy to meet the population's need for food, housing, etc.


OK, you guys tell me. Is the USA ready to embrace socialism?


I think they will once they realize that the "forever growth" paradigm of the free-marketers is kaput. That's not to say that my hypthothetical Mr. L. Faire wouldn't ever be elected President, but if that were to happen, it's time to start singin' the doomer blues...
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 12:17:08

However, I am not aware of any data suggesting that we will not be able to eat or to have a shelter and some clothe by 2050. Where is it?


Well, we can start with a report on historical crop yields per acre that's on the USDA website. I've got a copy of it and the URL on my laptop, but I don't have time to fire it up right now and configure it for my home network. I'll post it tomorrow if you can't find it.

Anyway, the data goes back to 1860 (when industrialization was already underway). What you see, especially when correlated with increased usage of nitrogen fertilizer (data also available on the USDA website), is that crop yields have increased between 400%-700% since that time. I've seen European data that was actually more telling, especially for Eastern Europe, but I do not know at this time where to find it again. IIRC, though, the crop yield increase there was substantial as a result of industrialized agriculture--roughly an 8-fold increase.

The correlation does not hold when looking at hybridization tables, or other such data. The reasonable conclusion, then, is that nitrogen fertilizer usage is primarily responsible for increased crop yields, and that once it becomes impossible for us to make those fertilizers artificially, our crop yields will decline significantly, leading to shortages of food and fibers for textiles.

Organic agriculture offers some hope on a small scale, but since I work in that industry, I can tell you that it's not scalable. It's impossible to farm large fields organically without the use of heavy machines and lots of under-the-table labor. One of the things that studies done on research farms don't usually tell you is that all of the well known farms have bunches of free labor in the form of students doing an internship. Without free labor, the farms would not exist as purely organic farms.

Getting the same yields through organic agriculture on, say, a 2 or 3 acre field is possible, but it is very difficult, and often it relies on leaving more to chance than is widely reported. Pesticides, especially, become important. If we posit that the really effective chemical pesticides will become unavailable sometime post-peak (as it seems reasonable to do), then we're left with using natural pesticides made of marigolds, tobacco, capsaicin, etc. Those work in a much more limited fashion, and in years with a heavy infestation of pest insects or fungi, crop yields must decline in Organic agriculture.

Not that I'm bashing organic methods. It's obvious that we must adopt them, and soon. But what we will find is that the promising studies to do with high crop yields were not done objectively, and that we will not be able to sustain the crop yields that we have now--especially when you consider the up-chain petroleum inputs. Biological controls do not occur naturally everywhere. On my garden, for instance, I'm getting ready to bring in some ladybugs from a distant source. They'll have to be shipped using petroleum. Once it becomes necessary to use such mechanisms to control pests on a wide scale, not only will we have immense difficulty finding enough of a given biological agent, we'll also have to ship it far and wide at great expense.

Nor will we be able to avail ourselves of clotches made of plastic, or of mulch fabrics made of the same, both of which are vital to high yield organic agriculture as it exists now. And there are plenty of other examples of vital inputs and devices that organic agriculture uses that rely on pretroleum. We won't have access to those at some point post-peak.

Do you think this will happen in the next ten thousand years? If yes, why?
If no, why do you even care?


I don't know whether it will happen in the next ten thousand years or not. But I care about people, whether they're people I know or not. I care about the human race in general. Regardless of spatial or temporal separation from people, I care about what happens to them. Are you trying to insinuate that I should not?
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 12:19:07

Ashurbanipal, I hope you'll try to get a copy of "Permaculture: a Designers' Manual" by Bill Mollison, which gives a detailed template for a different way of life not so dependent on energy, but with a high quality of life. I think you will find it very encouraging, and also may answer someof your questions about what we can do. I really recommend this book to everyone. If you can't afford it (it's rather expensive) try to get a copy through interlibrary loan.


I used to have a copy. For a variety of reasons, it's not practical for me to use his methods completely, but for others in different situations, he's definitely got valuable input. I recommend him as well; it's just not practical for my situation.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 14:25:09

ashurbanipal wrote:
Getting the same yields through organic agriculture on, say, a 2 or 3 acre field is possible, but it is very difficult,


Not according to those who have studied the work of Masanobu Fukuoka, who achieved yields comprable to those in mechanised agriculture, using no- till "organic" methods.

Why would you need pesticides in organic agriculture?
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 14:34:14

Not according to those who have studied the work of Masanobu Fukuoka, who achieved yields comprable to those in mechanised agriculture, using no- till "organic" methods.


I'd have to actually look at one of the studies to comment, but I'd be willing to bet that they suffer from at least one of the flaws I pointed out. No till agriculture is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned unless Fukuoka is doing something truly revolutionary. Again, it's not scalable.

Why would you need pesticides in organic agriculture?


What a weird question. Obviously, you can't use chemical pesticides in organic agriculture and still call it organic, which is the first part of the point. The second part of the point is that pests destroy crops. Surely you understand the implication.
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 14:40:06

Many practitioners of organic agriculture do not experience problems with "pests" and in fact don't recognise insects as "pests" but instead as indicators of unhealthy plants. Eliot Coleman has organically farmed successfully for decades in Vermont and Maine without use of pesticides.

You seem to expect these methods to somehow translate to industrial agriculture scale. Why? With less petroleum, industrial style agriculture won't be possible, probably. Our manner of growing food will simply have to change. This doesn't seem a bizarre concept to me, especially since people here on PO continually point out that in order to avoid the worst effects of peak oil our culture will have to drastically change. A basic part of our culture is how we grow food. Don't you think that would have to change too?
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