[mos6507]

with a question mark Mos and if it is true China have indeed trumped the world

If it is true China will NOT trump the world with a $50K vehicle no matter what it has for electric range. And remember that China just bought Hummer. Conflicting trends, perhaps?

EESTOR rolling out cheap packs can change the world, but I have serious doubts that lithium will ever get cheap enough. They call their batteries "ferrous" but I don't think they are any different from LiFePO4s. I don't think there is anything magical going on other than marketing-speak.

[rangerone314]

with a question mark Mos and if it is true China have indeed trumped the world

If it is true China will NOT trump the world with a $50K vehicle no matter what it has for electric range. And remember that China just bought Hummer. Conflicting trends, perhaps?

EESTOR rolling out cheap packs can change the world, but I have serious doubts that lithium will ever get cheap enough. They call their batteries "ferrous" but I don't think they are any different from LiFePO4s. I don't think there is anything magical going on other than marketing-speak.

I wouldn't worry too much about lithium batteries. Some cornucopian is going to invent "di-lithium" and we'll all be saved.

[Jotapay]

If there is a good deal of truth to that, is it much an improvement over other upcoming electrical vehicles?

The stated range of 250 miles for 1 charge is simply unbelievable.

[KevO]

with a question mark Mos and if it is true China have indeed trumped the world

If it is true China will NOT trump the world with a $50K vehicle no matter what it has for electric range. And remember that China just bought Hummer. Conflicting trends, perhaps? .

Absolutely. I also posted the link to the Global Witness report this morning (and I din't write that either)

can be seen from
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/oct/19/oil-prices-rise-supply-warning-report

[KevO]

more links abot the E6 - one from last Jan at
http://www.chinatravel.net/forum/Beijing-China-s-E6-blows-Prius-and-Volt-out-of-the-water/1656.html

more recently
http://www.chinacarforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5488
where can be found

And while the range of many electric vehicles is restricted by their battery capacity, making it inconvenient to travel long distances, the BYD e6, with its high-efficiency Fe battery, can go up to 249 miles (400km) on a single charge. That makes the e6 suitable for daily commutes, around-town chores and even long journeys.

The Fe battery pack in the e6 can be quick-charged to 50 percent of itscapacity in 10 minutes, and 100 percent of its capacity in 60 minutes.

　
e6 SPECIFICATIONS

Length in (mm)
179.3 (4554)

Width in (mm)
71.7 (1822)

Height in (mm)
64.2 (1630)

Wheelbase in (mm)
111.4 (2830)

Curb Weight lb (kg)
4453 (2020)

Output hp (kw)
268 (200)

Torque lb-ft (Nm)
406 (550 )

Range mi (km)
249 (400)

0-60mph Acceleration (sec)
< 8s

Top Speed mph (kph)
100 (160)

Recharge Time (quick charge)
50% in 10min

the Detroit show
http://ev-motoring.com/articles/features/byd-shows-fe-battery-e6-at-naias.html

[rangerone314]

the Detroit show
http://ev-motoring.com/articles/features/byd-shows-fe-battery-e6-at-naias.html

BYD just started selling the F3DM plug-in for approximately $22,000 in China.

wtf! What would it cost if it were sold in the US, without tarriffs?

[KevO]

the Detroit show
http://ev-motoring.com/articles/features/byd-shows-fe-battery-e6-at-naias.html

BYD just started selling the F3DM plug-in for approximately $22,000 in China.

wtf! What would it cost if it were sold in the US, without tarriffs?

I know nothing about US tarriffs. assuming the $22,000 price tag in China what's the estimate cost for the US then?

[kublikhan]

????
It already exists. Kublikhan posted the link a few posts back:
Gizmag

That car you showed is a hybrid. It will only go 62 miles on a single battery charge, as I said. Then it has to switch to the gas-powered generator.

You are looking at the F3DM, a different vehicle made by BYD. This thread is about the e6, which is not a hybrid but is all electric. The first part of the article discusses the F3DM(hybrid). The second part of the article discusses the e6.

[lper100km]

Range as a solitary specific is meaningless.

Weight, speed, terrain etc all play into the determination of ‘range.’

I can believe it if a battery pack is put on a tricycle and it travels round in a circle on the salt flats at 4 mph for three days.

MD did a masterful job of explaining the elements and limits of battery power requirements related to automotive use. There’s no silver bullet, made in China or elsewhere. Nothing, but nothing comes close to gasoline power density, short of nuclear.

If the world survives the decline in oil fuels in any kind of orderly fashion, the sight of a golf cart rolling down crumbling highways at 20mph will induce feelings of envy not known since the iconic Ford Mustang first appeared.

[Pops]

So this breakthrough technology is going to turn coal into steam into electricity into a chemical reaction into electricity into kinetic energy – so no one has to walk to McDonalds.


Great, now I won't be able to afford gas or electricity.

[Pops]

So if a typical jolt of electricity at the dryer outlet delivers +/- 40% of the energy embodied in the primary fuel, I wonder what the final efficiency of a plug in car works out to?

[Voice_du_More]

Only God can alter the laws of thermodynamics.

[KevO]

Only God can alter the laws of thermodynamics.

and She ain't interested

[frankthetank]

I thought the future was bicycles and walking shoes?

[NeoPeasant]

Old kunstler quote that needs repeating:

"As we stumble into the future of a permanent global energy crisis, an interesting delusional theme has taken shape among the public and virtually all our leaders in politics, business, and even science: the obsessive notion that it's all about keeping our cars running by other means, at all costs.
This is very unfortunate because it will be a colossal act of futility. "
- James Kunstler

The pursuit of a means to continue driving our cars at the expense of all alternatives will eventually not only leave us car-less, but alternative-less as well.

[mos6507]

Great, now I won't be able to afford gas or electricity.

You don't have a wind turbine or PV on your roof? What kind of doomer are you?

[DrGray]

Nice reminder NeoP. And I agree completely.

You know, I have trouble believing any of this battery BS when my latest and greatest cell phone won't even keep a charge for more than a few calls. I realise it's a poor anecdotal observation, but just saying.

[americandream]

As I've been saying all along, global captal lurks behind the scenes and if anything, were this technology to prove to be viable, America and the dollar will soar to lofty heights. America is heavily invested in China, dividends (foreign earnings) wise. China's rise will march in lockstep with America's continued advantage. Like I said, 50 years or so for this system to run its course.

How much can the current ramp up to with beefed up connections to the mains? Think about it; your oven and stove and refrigerator and hot water system can all run at the same time. With 3 phase standard power what can the amps rate? Questions others here are more qualified than I to answer.

Either this is a Ponzi conspiracy of monumental proportions or it's a "BUY BUY BUY" I dug a little and found this excellent article introding the company with a focus on it's founder;


"Wang Chuan-Fu started BYD (the letters are the initials of the company's Chinese name) in 1995 in Shenzhen, China. A chemist and government researcher, Wang raised some $300,000 from relatives, rented about 2,000 square meters of space, and set out to manufacture rechargeable batteries to compete with imports from Sony and Sanyo. By about 2000, BYD had become one of the world's largest manufacturers of cellphone batteries. The company went on to design and manufacture mobile-phone handsets and parts for Motorola (MOT, Fortune 500), Nokia (NOK), Sony Ericsson, and Samsung."

Perhaps the noise in April deafened us?

"But Buffett, who is 78, was intrigued by Munger's description of the entrepreneur behind BYD, a man named Wang Chuan-Fu, whom he had met through a mutual friend. "This guy," Munger tells Fortune, "is a combination of Thomas Edison and Jack Welch - something like Edison in solving technical problems, and something like Welch in getting done what he needs to do. I have never seen anything like it."


Coming from Munger, that meant a lot. Munger, the 85-year-old vice chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, is a curmudgeon who frowns on most investment ideas. "When I call Charlie with an idea," Buffett tells me, "and he says, 'That is really a dumb idea,' that means we should put 100% of our net worth into it. If he says, 'That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard,' then you should put 50% of your net worth into it. Only if he says, 'I'm going to have you committed,' does it mean he really doesn't like the idea."

This time Buffett asked another trusted partner, David Sokol, chairman of a Berkshire-owned utility company called MidAmerican Energy, to travel to China and take a closer look at BYD."


http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technol ... c.fortune/

[yesplease]

It's a good incremental step but KevO's hysterical sensationalism (sarcasm or no) is misplaced.

Batteries do not follow Moore's law the way consumer electronics and computers do. Something like EESTOR is required to push electric cars over the top.

They haven't kept up with Moore's law, but their drop in cost has been similar to LCDs.

Now, if you want to talk about a longer range EV with a 100 to 150 mile range, you need to look at Li ion. One year ago I priced out a 35 KWh LiFePO4 pack from Thundersky. That pack would have cost me $35,000. Ouch! About a week ago I calculated that the same battery pack from the same manufacturer would cost $18,000. In short, manufacturing capacity is going up, and the price is coming down fast! China actually increased its Li ion manufacturing capacity by 28% last year and now manufactures more Li ion batteries than Japan.

IIRC they've gone from ~$1500/kWh and 1000 cycles to 70% capacity in the earlly 2000s to ~$400/kWh and 5000 cycles to 70% capacity. Five times the lifespan for a quarter of the price seems pretty good to me. That's what, a penny per mile, assuming we take 'em out and toss 'em off a cliff at 70% capacity, even though they still have plenty of life left in 'em?

[yesplease]

So if a typical jolt of electricity at the dryer outlet delivers +/- 40% of the energy embodied in the primary fuel, I wonder what the final efficiency of a plug in car works out to?

About the same as a hybrid, provided the energy source is FF based. Course, we could have a windmill in ND charging a car in LA, or whatever, so it opens up a whole lot of options in terms of fuel.