[SeaGypsy]

Do I need to Google for you VT?
Topics I have mentioned already/

Nutrient collection from sewage via biochar.

Aquaponics.

Irrigation control.

Shade/ glasshouse climate systems

Crop rotation

Regeneration of wild lands

Anyone who wants to can Google these topics & read like I did. If these existing technologies were thoroughly planned for specific bio regions triple food production globally is as a rough figure, quite possible.

I can't prove it & nobody can prove it not. The point is for me not proving any more than that there are more than one way to think about anything, including agriculture, food security, population & ecology.

[vtsnowedin]

Oh I see 300 million acres of irrigated green house fertilized with human poo.

[Ibon]

When I read these last two pages of posts I can almost believe that we aren't as stupid a species as we sometimes believe....... great posts everyone.

Desu, people pay thousands of dollars in therapy and get less than what you have been given here!

I have nothing to add on the big question of our trajectory. I seem to have lost the thread.... some bird came and built a nest with it.

[Ibon]

Anyone who wants to can Google these topics & read like I did. If these existing technologies were thoroughly planned for specific bio regions triple food production globally is as a rough figure, quite possible.

There is sugar factory down in the valley. We bring an empty 55 gallon drum and they fill it with molasses for $ 38 dollars. The rice factory sells us truckloads of rice husks for pennies that we put in our chicken coup as a base for chicken manure. Local materials. Yesterday we followed the advice of a local vegetable farmer.

We took a sack of this chicken manure and a gallon of molasses and put it in an empty 55 gallon drum. Added a few handfuls of chemical fertilize and a $ 6 liter of foilage fertilizer that has all the micro nutrients. We filled the tank with water. This is going to sit in our greenhouse now and ferment for 30 days. Afterwards you mix one part of this fermented liquid with 5 parts water and spray your vegetables. We are going to add this also to the water supply of our hydroponic system.

There are so many valuable waste products around in every bio-region that can be recycled into food production. Imagine all the unemployed human labor being dedicated to such tasks?

[SeaGypsy]

Even if the almost totally pessimistic are correct, if any of us are to make it through the looming bottleneck, the pessimism will be of no value. As deluded as the optimists may be, it will be there will be a lot more of them than the other.

If there is one thing humans have gotten pretty good at, it is sharing knowledge. Good knowledge is worth sharing. Always was & will be.

[Newfie]

The only reason I come to this site.

What do you DO? How to get through the bottle neck.

(Well, I do get side tracked into philosophical and other arguments, on occasion!).

[SeaGypsy]

Wonder how our survival ratio will go as a community compared to other online communities? Will the net exist? Other long distance communication? Oh well...

[DesuMaiden]

At a 1% growth rate of world population per year, we will have the following:

In 850 years, we will have so many people that every square meter of the Earth's land surface will have a single person.

In 2500 years, we will have so many people that the population of humans equals the mass of the Earth.

That's impossible. That's why 1% growth in population per year is impossible to sustain. It is unsustainable.

This is from Albert Bartlett.

[careinke]

\
We took a sack of this chicken manure and a gallon of molasses and put it in an empty 55 gallon drum. Added a few handfuls of chemical fertilize and a $ 6 liter of foilage fertilizer that has all the micro nutrients. We filled the tank with water. This is going to sit in our greenhouse now and ferment for 30 days. Afterwards you mix one part of this fermented liquid with 5 parts water and spray your vegetables. We are going to add this also to the water supply of our hydroponic system.

There are so many valuable waste products around in every bio-region that can be recycled into food production. Imagine all the unemployed human labor being dedicated to such tasks?

If you have comfrey growing, add some leaves to your mixture it will add a lot of phosphorus.

[Ibon]

\
We took a sack of this chicken manure and a gallon of molasses and put it in an empty 55 gallon drum. Added a few handfuls of chemical fertilize and a $ 6 liter of foilage fertilizer that has all the micro nutrients. We filled the tank with water. This is going to sit in our greenhouse now and ferment for 30 days. Afterwards you mix one part of this fermented liquid with 5 parts water and spray your vegetables. We are going to add this also to the water supply of our hydroponic system.

There are so many valuable waste products around in every bio-region that can be recycled into food production. Imagine all the unemployed human labor being dedicated to such tasks?

If you have comfrey growing, add some leaves to your mixture it will add a lot of phosphorus.

Thanks Careinke.....I will have to grow some for future batches.

[vtsnowedin]

Even if the almost totally pessimistic are correct, if any of us are to make it through the looming bottleneck, the pessimism will be of no value. As deluded as the optimists may be, it will be there will be a lot more of them than the other.

If there is one thing humans have gotten pretty good at, it is sharing knowledge. Good knowledge is worth sharing. Always was & will be.

There is a difference between pessimism and realism. The pessimist sees no positive outcome and gives up at the first opportunity. A realist sees both the problems and the possible positive routes to defeat them if they exist. The realist will survive long after both pessimist and optimists have starved to death.

[ralfy]

There is a difference between pessimism and realism. The pessimist sees no positive outcome and gives up at the first opportunity. A realist sees both the problems and the possible positive routes to defeat them if they exist. The realist will survive long after both pessimist and optimists have starved to death.

A pessimist can also be seen as a realist because he acknowledges such problems.

A realist can also be seen as a pessimist when he sees no solution to the problem of overpopulation.

If he uses that knowledge to prepare, then he becomes a survivalist.

[SeaGypsy]

As a realist, eventual survivalist. I hope to be surrounded by optimistic realists when the time comes, hopefully good looking & funny ones.

[onlooker]

SG, nice post with interesting ideas put forth. I researched these however, I must refute the notion that these ideas can solve the juxtaposition of limits to growth and sustainability which humanity is confronting. First of all, these ideas while maximizing and optimizing food production do not introduce any magical solution to feeding 7 billion and growing population. "Synthetic Nitrogen is responsible for raising crop yields approximately 35 to 50% over the last half century accounting for 80% of the increase in cereal crops, without which much of the worlds population would not exist (Smil 1991). " This synthetic nitrogen is obtain via Haber-Bosch process relying on Natural Gas. Basically a tremendous boost to agricultural production. Fossil fuels are finite. Also, as we speak soil erosion continues, desertification, overfishing, overgrazing etc. So this is all very unsustainable. But even more telling is that 7 plus billion must have a large impact upon this planet. For example we continue cutting down the Amazon just to have more arable land. We continue overfishing just to feed ourselves. We continue depleting ancient aquifers to water our crops. Global warming is just getting revved up. We continue polluting the planet. What makes anyone think that these underlying trends will get any better. So no amount of clever or imaginative design can produce food and water and a clean Earth from nothing nor help us control our population. That is not pessimism that is realism.

[vtsnowedin]

The only reason I come to this site.

What do you DO? How to get through the bottle neck.

(Well, I do get side tracked into philosophical and other arguments, on occasion!).

On occasion?? Compared to you I'm.... eeh,... humm,...... aaah ......,sortah,
Weeell now that you mention it, I'm just a guilty as you and quite a few others around these parts.

[Serial_Worrier]

There is no overpopulation problem in the West. The overpopulation in the East will solve itself through die-off. Nature has a way of correcting problems. No need to panic.

[vtsnowedin]

There is no overpopulation problem in the West. The overpopulation in the East will solve itself through die-off. Nature has a way of correcting problems. No need to panic.

You obviously have not been to Mexico city lately.
http://www.marxsite.com/mexico_city.htm

[onlooker]

Also by the way this site is peakoil. So the rich West is having now to confront a rather difficult problem of Energy to power our civilization. Also, it is true that the East with China and India has truly become overpopulated but the problems of climate change, resource depletion, potable water availability, dead soil/desertification and pollution are poised to affect the entire planet.

[Pops]

Just generally, it is a mistake to, on the one hand, condemn "capitalists" for their never ending quest for lower cost, higher efficiency and increased profits and on the other hand claim that "farmers" - because of some kind of genetic backwardness I guess - are not constantly striving to increase yields and reduce inputs. If there were a better "system" that provided higher yields with lower inputs and less damage to business capital (soil) why would those backward clodhoppers not employ it?

It took less than 7 years for Round Up Ready corn to capture a majority of the market, if there were a silver bullet to increasing yields how long do you think it would take to adopt?

Ag is a big, complex business that uses the most sophisticated science available, many times so sophisticated regulators have no idea what is going on. No matter the platitudes and xxx-culture fad of the day, every year, every farmer performs an experiment with the goal of growing more for less or going out of business.

[careinke]

Just generally, it is a mistake to, on the one hand, condemn "capitalists" for their never ending quest for lower cost, higher efficiency and increased profits and on the other hand claim that "farmers" - because of some kind of genetic backwardness I guess - are not constantly striving to increase yields and reduce inputs. If there were a better "system" that provided higher yields with lower inputs and less damage to business capital (soil) why would those backward clodhoppers not employ it?

It took less than 7 years for Round Up Ready corn to capture a majority of the market, if there were a silver bullet to increasing yields how long do you think it would take to adopt?

Ag is a big, complex business that uses the most sophisticated science available, many times so sophisticated regulators have no idea what is going on. No matter the platitudes and xxx-culture fad of the day, every year, every farmer performs an experiment with the goal of growing more for less or going out of business.

Your reasoning is exactly why I don't worry about GMO crops, or even large scale monoculture anymore. Eventually they will disappear on their own, because they are quickly becoming uneconomical (or at least less profitable) than non GMO produce. Plus, in the long term they are simply unsustainable.

As a farmer, my main concern is how much money I can make for my family. I really don't care how many bushels of corn per acre I produce. I care about how much money I have in my pocket at the end of the year. In any case it seems NON GMO corn is producing better yields, require less water, and obviously less roundup is used. Add to that, non gmo produce gets a higher selling price and consumers prefer NON GMO crops.

Higher yields, less cost
One reason for the increased interest in non-GMO corn seed is higher yields. “Yields of non-GMO are comparable if not better (than GM),” Eischen says.”

“The market is growing, and farmers are beginning to realize they can get the same yield levels as they would with GM corn in many situations and increase their profitability,” says Ben Benson, President, B&M Seed (http://www.bigcob.com).

George Naylor, a corn and soybean farmer in Churdan, Iowa, says his non-GMO corn yielded 141 bushels per acre in last year’s drought conditions compared with a neighbor whose GM corn yielded 100 bushels. Naylor also earned a $.50 premium above commodity price for his corn. “My neighbor told me he might as well grow non-GMO corn,” Naylor says.

Terpstra says farmers in Illinois are earning $.60 to $1.00 per bushel premiums for non-GMO corn.

“Farmers have become more aware of premiums being offered for non-GMO corn. If there is a premium and the yield is same as GM, why not go non-GMO?” says Lynn Clarkson, president of Clarkson Grain (http://www.clarksongrain.com), a buyer of non-GMO corn and soybeans.

Non-GMO corn seed also costs much less. While GM corn seed can cost $300 and more per bag or unit, non-GMO corn seed can cost about one-half of that. Naylor says he spent $159.90 per bag for one variety of non-GMO corn and about $149.00 for another.

“Stacked” GM traits aren’t working
GM corn seed is increasingly “stacked” with multiple transgenic traits, and many seed suppliers say these stacked GM corn varieties aren’t working as evidenced by increasing resistance by corn rootworm.

“From what I hear, the ‘chemistry’ isn’t always working well, whether it’s because of Roundup resistant weeds, or root worms that aren’t handled,” says Maury Johnson, president of Blue River Hybrids (http://www.blueriverorgseed.com), which sells organic corn seed. “Why pay $250 for a bag of corn when the chemistry isn’t as effective as advertised?”

“I’m hearing that the traits aren’t working, that farmers have to use insecticides,” Schneider says.

“People are starting to question the value of the (GM) trait, especially in years with a lack of pest pressure,” says a seed supplier who asked to remain anonymous.

“Farmers are seeing that they been misled on traits and asking: Where is the value?” says Gilbert Hostetler, president of Prairie Hybrids (http://www.prairiehybrids.com).

“More farmers are beginning to think for themselves,” says Art Scheele, president of American Organic (http://www.american-organic.com), which sells organic corn seed. “The more progressive growers are starting to do their own testing (of corn seed) and not relying on company trials,” he says.

Non-GMO corn also performs better in the drought conditions seen last year, says Terpstra. “GM corn with multiple traits requires twice as much water as non-GMO.”

More sustainable, better for animals
Seed suppliers cite growing awareness of GMO risks and sustainability as another reason why farmers may be considering a switch to non-GMO.

“People are becoming more aware of what is in their food, and they want non-GMO,” Trudell says.

Farmers are becoming more aware also, says Hostetler. “Farmers are starting to see poor decomposition (of plants) in soil, poor plant health, less yield, and animal health decline with GMO grains,” he says.

There have been reports of farm animals suffering health problems due to being fed GM corn and soybeans. A few years ago, several Iowa farmers reported that their hogs suffered false pregnancies when they were fed GM corn. The problem stopped when the farmers switched to non-GMO corn.

Terpstra says that hog producers he knows in Minnesota are switching from GM to non-GMO corn for feed and are seeing much fewer sicknesses and deaths among hogs.

Schneider says he knows of one hog farmer who saw increased litters and healthier animals when they were fed non-GMO corn.

- See more at: http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/j ... G6Cuk.dpuf

http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/january2013/Demand-growing-for-non-GMO-corn-seed.php

In addition, many countries are banning GMO crops. With the ever increasing negative views towards transgenetic organisms,(even if they were completely wrong and round up in your plants adds great health benefits), why would you grow something that people do not want?