[Plantagenet]

I pay federal taxes once a year. We all pay the oil companies every time we fill up.

You have to pay your taxes or the feds will come after you. You don't have to pay the oil companies if you don't fill up. Ride the bus, get a Tesla, or get on your bike and peddle right by those gas stations.

If you decide to fill up its your decision and your responsibility. The CO2 you produce is tallied to your carbon footprint---not somebody elses. Stop trying to blame the 1% for your personal carbon footprint.

[Subjectivist]

I pay federal taxes once a year. We all pay the oil companies every time we fill up. And by filling up, we are also paying for the benefit of carbon polluting the planet out of existence. What a sweet situation we have found ourselves in.

How do you manage to not pay Federal withholding taxes with every paycheck you collect from your employer? As far as that goes even unemployment benefits get charged Federal payroll taxes.

[dohboi]

The oil companies have been very careful to be sure that it is nearly impossible to exist in this society without using some sort of internal combustion engine vehicle.

(By the way, plant, thanks for the reminder that I have to do my damn taxes! )

[careinke]

I pay federal taxes once a year. We all pay the oil companies every time we fill up. And by filling up, we are also paying for the benefit of carbon polluting the planet out of existence. What a sweet situation we have found ourselves in.

Really?? So you don't pay the federal gas tax? Do you use a phone? How about taking a commercial flight? Do you have cable? Do you pay the penalty on your income tax rather than having automatic withholding from your paycheck? How about Social Security withholding, I don't think you can defer those payments to the end of the year? Medicaid withholding? Do you use commercial electricity? Do you really think corporations don't pass their federal taxes on to their customers?

I could go on, and add a lot more, if you add in State and local taxes. None of these taxes are voluntary. If you don't believe me don't pay them, then let the government know. People with guns will pay you a visit, and make sure you pay. It's theft, plain and simple. They just call them taxes so you are not offended.

[careinke]

The oil companies have been very careful to be sure that it is nearly impossible to exist in this society without using some sort of internal combustion engine vehicle.

And so has the government. Zoning laws prevent you from living close to work. It also puts industrial areas out of sight, so the pollution is not as obvious. It prevents an individual from starting a business out of his home.

Building permits make it prohibitively expensive to use alternative building methods or alternative power, water, and waste disposal systems. Mother Government thinks she has to protect you, (just give a few of your liberties it's for your own good), your to stupid to make your own decisions.

[americandream]

The notion of paying your way in a state (a large family in other words) seems sound to me. Of course, America has gotten accustomed to getting something for nothing and thus we have these strange attitudes towards paying your way. In addition, larger subsidies are made over to the rich and no one complains, instead whingeing at the poor until they fall through the net and generally begrudging paying their way.

[PrestonSturges]

Also, anyone that uses the word "collectivist" tends to be the worst sort of babbling obnoxious fuckwit. It's people who want to pretend they read FA Hayek's most embarrassing work, but they didn't, so they pretend they did, so they make themselves exponentially more stupid. Just by using the word "collectivist," Charles Koch makes himself sound like a babbling idiot.

[Ayoob]

There has already been a post on this in a main thread. It has already been discussed.

I suppose you should merge this thread into something about finance. If something has been discussed once, definitely bury any further discussion in a behemoth mergeathon.

[dsula]

If you decide to fill up its your decision and your responsibility:

Plant, don't do that to the peons here. Don't take away their scapegoat. Blaming the rich, government and corporations is the only thing they have left.

It's easier to blame mcdonalds for your obesity than to stop eating.

[americandream]

If you decide to fill up its your decision and your responsibility:

Plant, don't do that to the peons here. Don't take away their scapegoat. Blaming the rich, government and corporations is the only thing they have left.

It's easier to blame mcdonalds for your obesity than to stop eating.

If you feel so strongly about the personal, then you need to stop using the services we willingly fund out of our taxes. To come onto a socialised infrastructure singing the praises aboot being your own person is a bit much. I resent paying for the likes of you to use these facilities, being the ingrate you are.

I presume you will now take heed of these suggestions and desist from cadging.

[dohboi]

Car: "None of these taxes are voluntary." Did I say someplace that they were voluntary. But as to that, the main payroll federal tax that we were mainly talking about is technically voluntary--if you don't want to pay it, don't make much money.

[Plantagenet]

the main payroll federal tax that we were mainly talking about is technically voluntary--if you don't want to pay it, don't make much money.

Good point.

And by that logic sales is completely voluntary too….if you don't want to pay sales tax then stop buying food and eating it.

[americandream]

If you don't want to avail yourself of the services and infrastructure paid for by the hard working taxpayer, don't.

[Plantagenet]

...don't .... avail yourself of the services and infrastructure paid for by the hard working taxpayer.

Not a very smart idea, AD.

Anyone with a brain is going to avail themselves of any service and infrastructure that benefits them. After all, people pay for it all with their taxes.

The problem isn't the existence of government services and infrasturcture---if done well they are necessary and helpful. The problem is the incredible inefficiencies, incompetence and waste that some governments stumble through as they try to offer services and build infrastructure. For instance, take the Obama administration---these clowns spent a TRILLION dollars on what was claimed to "shovel-ready" infrasturcture projects in 2009, only to later admit that there weren't any shovel ready projects---it was all a big lie.

Oooopsies. And then they put it on the tab and let future generations pay the debt service on that little bit of incompetence for the next 50 years---we could've done without that bit of foolishness, thank you very much...

[dohboi]

"if you don't want to pay sales tax then stop buying food and eating it." Another good reason to grow your own and to buy/trade directly from other producers.

Meanwhile, on the one of the other issues on this thread:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... al-warming

The climate change deniers have won

Scientists continue to warn us about global warming, but most of us have a vested interest in not wanting to think about it

...All of which is a long way of saying that the global warming deniers have won. And please, can I have no emails from bed-wetting kidults blubbing that you can't call us "global warming deniers " because "denier" makes us sound like "Holocaust deniers", and that means you are comparing us to Nazis? The evidence for man-made global warming is as final as the evidence of Auschwitz. No other word will do.

Tempting though it is to blame cowardly politicians, the abuse comes too easily. The question remains: what turned them into cowards?

Rightwing billionaires in the United States and the oil companies have spent fortunes on blocking action on climate change. A part of the answer may therefore be that conservative politicians in London, Washington and Canberra are doing their richest supporters' bidding. There's truth in the bribery hypothesis.

In my own little world of journalism, I have seen rightwing hacks realise the financial potential of denial and turn from reasonable men and women into beetle-browed conspiracy theorists...

Climate change deniers are (just) as committed. Their denial fits perfectly with their support for free market economics, opposition to state intervention and hatred of all those latte-slurping, quinoa-munching liberals, with their arrogant manners and dainty hybrid cars, who presume to tell honest men and women how to live.

If they admitted they were wrong on climate change, they might have to admit that they were wrong on everything else and their whole political identity would unravel.

[Plantagenet]

Tempting though it is to blame cowardly politicians, the abuse comes too easily. The question remains: what turned them into cowards?

Its in their nature. If they had balls and brains they wouldn't act like cowards.

If we're lucky the next president (Hillary in 2016?) will have enough balls not turn cowardly over the climate change issue.

[americandream]

@ Plant

Not smart perhaps but as they say, put your money etc, etc. I tend to stand by my convictions. I am a committed Marxist, I would not put my future in the hands of fickle employers so I both stand by my political convistions when I vote for a more socialised society with the consequential higher rates of tax as well as work for myself (and I taught myself how to read the markets in a bid to be comfortably independent.)

So as far as I am concerned, I am rather smart in being able to take care of myself as well as support a better funded society. If you believe that its smart to cadge off one end whilst very volubly spouting a load of contrary junk out the other, feel free. I would have thought a free marketeer such as your self would be able to stand on your own two feet.

[Plantagenet]

I am a committed Marxist .... I am rather smart.... etc....etc.....

I've had dogs that were rather smart...and they also had the good sense not to go around boasting about themselves all the time.

[PrestonSturges]

The best way to not pay taxes is to be filthy rich and move the money through a variety of corporations and keep it offshore.

On of the reasons that our economy is stagnating is that money keeps flowing upwards and then it goes offshore. The taxation is minimal, then it leaves the US economy.

[Lore]

The best way to not pay taxes is to be filthy rich and move the money through a variety of corporations and keep it offshore.

On of the reasons that our economy is stagnating is that money keeps flowing upwards and then it goes offshore. The taxation is minimal, then it leaves the US economy.

To the tune of 1.2 trillion dollars by corporations. God knows how much in private accounts.