[cephalotus]

Stale mate. Increasingly it seems the people will not get what they voted for.

What did they vote for?

Some completely undefined kind of brexit.

They will get that. I doubt it will have much in common what they thought they voted for.

Now May told about her "plan B". I fail to see it. She just told (again) what she does not want to do, but nothing about the plan.

If the British don't know what they want how should the EU? There is only the option of a hard brexit everyone should able to understand.

You can not leave the club and expect to keep the keys to the club room.

[cephalotus]

In other words, nothing to change until the replacement rules are negotiated or imposed.

This is not possible. There is a vote of the EU parliament in May 2019 and very obviously it can not include new members from UK.
So Brexit it must be and after that you have no representatives in EU but if you want to "just keep going on" you obviously have to accept EU rules made in that EU parliament.

Your parliamant decided that this is not acceptable.

So what now?

I fail to see how there would be any new great and revolutionary ideas in 2 1/2 months that nobody thought about in the last 2 1/1 years.

Sad but simple and true fact is that NOONE in UK had the slightest idea about HOW that brexit should look like when you voted yes or no about it. Evene today, 2 1/2 years later not anyone in the UK has a idea how they want to proceed with Brexit.

What they dream about is staying in the EU like it was before, but not accepting any rules, not paying into the EU funds and closing their borders for Immigration (which did not come from other EU countries, but mainly from your colonies).
So you wnat be a club member but without paying the Membership and without having to accept the rules.

That was the Brexit UK voters dreamed about.

Well, some of you might understand that this is not what 26 other EU members see as an Option or even starting point for negotiation. It isn't.

On the other hand you want "take backe control". This is only possible out of the EU.

So we will end either with a hard brexit or the destruction of the EU. EU has the vote on this and I doubt they will chose their own death in allowing a club member not to pay the bill (the extra Brit discount Thatcher achieved was already highly doubtful) and just ignoring the rules while all other 26 members are the idiots.

[cephalotus]

Cephalotus - A true German speaking. We all know the EU is run by Germany for Germany, along with the French poodles and from now on it will be paid for by mainly by Germany - Good luck with your looming recession. You ain't getting £39 Billion either.

Does this sound very logical to you that the country that just dominates all other is paying the most?

Btw, why is this such a huge Problem for you, even within your own UK. Will the scots leave because it is their oil or will they not. Is it all reduced to you to just about some bit of stupid money?
I don't give a shit if I have 100€ more or less per month, this doesn't change my lifestyle in any way and we are talking about much lower sums.

Maybe WE will allow EU planes to fly over the UK (Not Stukas or Messerschmitts though !!!!). Looking on Flightradar24 most flights from mainland Europe to the USA fly over the UK. A long expensive divert if the EU starts to play silly buggers.

Only some people in UK still didn't realise that WW II ended almost 74 years ago. This is an entire lifetime!

Why do you want to play the absolutly stupid "if you hurt more than me than it is okay" game? If there are no overflight rights both sides will be harmed. So I believe it is just plain stupid to do it that way and I give a shit on how is harmed more.

You didn't get from Brexit what you dreamed about, but this isn't the fault of the EU, not the smallest bit. It is only the fault of those that didn't think about what a Brexit could be, before they made their promisses. You failed for very ill advisorsand now blame it on others (=EU) because you can't have your cake and eat it.

[cephalotus]

We voted against political suicide, which is what remaining committed to "ever closer union" towards a federal system of European government entails for the UK and its parliamentary democracy.

Yes, we all know what UK is against. About 1 million things.

But all wonder what you voted FOR?

When are you finally going to get it through your thick skull that the EU is not a friendly club of self-governing democracies but a technocratic United States of Europe in the making which the elites are determined to make create by hook or by crook and regardless of public disquiet?

We don't have to agree if the EU is a good thing or a bad thing.
You already decided this for you and "we" accept your decission.

Brexit is about how you leave the club and now most People over here simply fail to understand what you want.
You don't what a border between NI and Ireland, but you don't want NI to be inside the EU.

You want to be in a trade Union with EU and free borders for your and our stuff, but you want to make your own deals with other countries and want to live on your own rules.

Very obviously (at least to us) this is not possible.

The British people will do well to leave by agreement before it's necessary to fight a war to get out.

And how do YOU think such an Agreement should be like. As someone from UK and a Brexit superoret please tell me exactly, what you want:

1. Where to put the EU border?
2. What should cross that border freely and what not?
3. Do you want market access for goods better than WTO agreement and if so are you willing to accept the rules inside this trade union?
4. Do you want to trade financial services between UK and EU and are you willing to do that on EU rules?
5. Are you willing to acept open borders from People inside the entire EU as Switzerland, Norway & Co do?
6. Are you willing to pay for that market access as Switzerland, Norway & Co do?
7. Are you willing to Keep environmental rules made by EU if you want to trade like inside a trade union?
8. If you want the borders closed how about cooperations for research projects, military, criminal databases, Euratom and so on...
9. Are you willing to pay for pensions of former UK citizens in EU parliament like N. Farage or should EU citizens pay for those pensions in the future?

Just a few basic questions, nothing about small ugly details...

Noone is "punishing" you, People inside the EU just want to learn what you want and not again that 2 1/2 year talk about what you don't want.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Its all about fairness and common sense. The likes of Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt, Barnier and the rest of the Brussels club etc have caused most of this upset. Communist / Fascists all.

Gas

I'm an American, with no dog in this fight. Just an interested observer, in that the US has considered the UK to be a political and military ally for a long time.

Given the discussion above, and I just read through the last couple of pages, if one thing is clear, it is that there is little or no agreement about WHAT "fairness and common sense" is, depending on the differing points of view of the various sides.

In some ways, this reminds me of the conflict between the US federal government and the states, especially in regards to immigration law -- since clearly immigration policy is a big part of the issue with Brexit.

With large, diverse groups of people, there's no way everyone will agree on the vast majority of issues. So it's compromise or fight, and live with the consequences.

As the US government stays partially shut down over immigration, it will be interesting to observe what happens, especially if the US government is still shut down come Brexit decision time, IMO.

[cephalotus]

Sine we (historically) have bought over twice as much from the EU as the EU has bought from us, there is a balance of trade vastly biased towards the EU. You (Germany) should be paying US !!!

It's not about selling how much (you should include financial services in that calculation), but about the benefit to gain for market access. there is a benefit for EU to get access to the UK market and there is a benefit for UK to get the EU market access.

So far it is the UK position not to give up that market access.

Eu says this is acceptable if you pay and play to EU rules and if we solve the border problem. All EU members and all countries whishing access to EU market agree to free movement of goods, services, capital flow and people.

All EU countries and all countries that trade with EU on EU rules agree on that, including the Swiss people who voted against free movement of people.

UK said they do not want free movement of people

So for the EU this means that you also do not get free capital flow, free trade of goods and services.

Do you really believe that after decades when every single country in the free trade union agreed to that UK would get something else, something "better"? This is a topic EU can not negotiate, it is unthinkable and this was already known in 2016 to everyone who had at least a minimal information on what the EU is about.

I voted OUT. Out means OUT, WTO rules.

Okay. Most likely you are NOT in a majority n your country. There are three fractions, hard brexit (like you), soft brexit (=deal with EU) or no brexit

No fraction seems to have a majority, so no matter what you will do in the end it is what a minority wants.

---
To answer your questions - my personal view.
1. Where to put the EU border?
As they are, English Channel and Eire / NI free border there (it IS an island).

Do I understand you correct that you want Ireland to leave the EU? I very much doubt this is agreeable for Ireland.
I would say the very obvious solution is an EU border between Ireland (inside EU) and North Ireland (outside the EU).

2. What should cross that border freely and what not?
Goods as now, on WTO terms. No visas for EU citizens - passports checked as now. Reciprocal. Permits to work as required. Basically we are sick of Eastern Europeans (and many others some of which pass through Europe to get here) baling over here and claiming benefits / housing / schooling / health services etc etc they have never paid into. Just like the USA is sick of Mexicans & others from further south. Economic freeloaders. You should know - Merkel invited over a million into Germany - and now expects other countries to "Take their share" - as you know Poland (and others) is having none of this.

You have been the very first country to invite those workers from former Eastern Europe. Polish workers are the backbone of some parts of your NHS and the backbone of many agricultural sectors.

Btw, Germany shares a direct border to Poland with free movement and while there had been significant resistances against workers coming over there have been more positive than negative effects on both Germany and Poland.
From further East its a mixed pack. There are some seeking social security, but on the other hand lots of high skilled medical personal is coming from there, working here and paying taxes. And that education does not come cheap.

EU is not about cherry picking, its about win-win on the big picture.

The migration crises of 2015 affected UK how exactly?

You are talking about EU people here this has nothing to do with people from Maghreb, Syria or Afghanistan crossing the middle sea. France defended the Calais tunnel for you.

After Brexit you will have your own middle sea refugees in the North sea. Than you can see how you would handle that better than we, if you have the NGOs saving people from (self inflicted) drowning boats and sending SOS.

Have fun solving that dilemma.

---

3. Do you want market access for goods better than WTO agreement and if so are you willing to accept the rules inside this trade union?
To be looked at in future. The EEC was a good idea - TRADE, The EU is a disaster POLITICAL CONTROL BY GERMANY

So the answer is no

---

4. Do you want to trade financial services between UK and EU and are you willing to do that on EU rules?
As above

No free trade of capital and financial services it is for you

---

5. Are you willing to acept open borders from People inside the entire EU as Switzerland, Norway & Co do?
NO OPEN BORDERS _ That is what most people here voted for.

okay. That's an EU border between Ireland and Not Ireland with controls

---

6. Are you willing to pay for that market access as Switzerland, Norway & Co do?
NO. Not one penny. WTO rules. (This will cost the EU twice as much as us).

okay. You know your view is very different to those negotiating with EU. They want to keep the market access. It is also what Brexiteers promissed before the vote. So in that case you will not get what many people voted for. You have decide for yourself if that is democratic.

---

7. Are you willing to Keep environmental rules made by EU if you want to trade like inside a trade union?
If they make sense, yes. (Ask VW about environmental rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

You always fall back to the blaming game. Bad Germany, bad Germany, we are enemies and try to hurt each other, bla bla...
Try to keep it on topic and this is Brexit.
You don't need to discuss if it was wise or not, because it already happend and you don't have to explain why you voted pro Brexit.
Now it is about HOW to make that Brexit

So out of EU you obviously are free to do whatever environmental rules you like to have.

Obviously there will be topics like fishing rights, putting waste into the sea and so on.

---

8. If you want the borders closed how about cooperations for research projects, military, criminal databases, Euratom and so on...
Each needs looking at on a case by case basis. I can't see any problems here at all.

You think you can decide on a hard Brexit and after that negotiate all those topics (a few hundred) withing 2 months?

If not all those cooperations could stop. If you are a researcher and you don't get paid for months or maybe years while your experiments rot away you probably will try to get another job.

But I do agree with you on that. If it is a hard Brexit (please decide soon) than it would be best to solve as many of those problems as soon as possible. There are still many win-win situations or at least reduce the loss on both sides situations.

---

9. Are you willing to pay for pensions of former UK citizens in EU parliament like N. Farage or should EU citizens pay for those pensions in the future?
Yes providing those pensions should be paid COMMENSURATE to the years worked in the EU Parliament and not a golden gift.

Sure. I brought that to attention because it is a port of the "leave bill" which many people in UK refuse as a punishment.

---

Its all about fairness and common sense. The likes of Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt, Barnier and the rest of the Brussels club etc have caused most of this upset. Communist / Fascists all.

Please keep to the facts.
It was UK who votes for the Brexit, not the EU
It was EU who negotiated a deal with May and your minisiters, which UK parliament refused

The current Brexit chaos is definitely not the fault of the EU.

The problem is the UK, because you have three main Brexit fractions and none of those has a majority.

It would have been much wiser if you voted between hard Brexit, soft Brexit and no Brexit, but that oportunity has gone no.

There is also no time for a vote between soft Brext (EU deal) and no deal, whcih would be the wise idea now.

I wonder if UK will find out what it wants during the next weeks.

EU has done everything it could have done.

Hard Brexit is still an option
Deal for a soft Brexit was negotiated
No Brexit should not be an option in my opinion any more. I think UK out of the EU is now better for the EU than UK within the EU.

It will give other countries to learn about the benefits and disadvantages of quitting the EU and maybe they learn about how to initiate such a process wisely.

Imho the most important thing is to know what exiting EU means. UK can serve as a good example.

Of course I whish you all the best outside the EU. It is no help for anyone if you suffer.

[evilgenius]

I've been trying to tell people the only real way to do this is to make Northern Ireland a free trade zone. Raw materials and finished sub-assemblies can come in without any tariffs. The final assemblies can go across the Irish Sea, which would become the actual hard line, with whatever amount of taxation is deemed appropriate. Other finished goods could be exported. A realistic level of EU citizen labor could be set which would reflect the fact that Ireland and Northern Ireland are so interrelated. It would also have to take into account the other EU nationals who would want to seek employment in the zone. Therefore the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland would not be a sticking point. Manufacturers with heavy investments in plants within the UK, but outside of Northern Ireland, would have to configure ways to make sub-assemblies and raw materials into larger sub-assemblies, which could then be shipped across the Irish Sea barrier free of taxation because they are essentially transfers within UK companies and not imports.

It would also be good for the idea of Britain as a union. It would be good to see the many Britons who now go over to places like Calais to buy whatever portion of their year's alcohol or cigarette consumption that will fit into their car take a ferry and visit Northern Ireland to get the same. Maybe nobody has talked about it much, but the alcohol unit police would achieve a huge victory if things keep going this way. Nobody is going to stock up in Calais if they have to pay tax on what they buy that would make the cost of it equivalent to what they'd pay in Tesco for booze.

[Quinny]

To answer your questions - my personal view.
1. Where to put the EU border?
As they are, English Channel and Eire / NI free border there (it IS an island).

So an open border. Boat to Cork and then train to Belfast. Easer than risking a dinghy across the channel.

2. What should cross that border freely and what not?
Goods as now, on WTO terms. No visas for EU citizens - passports checked as now. Reciprocal. Permits to work as required.

"Basically we are sick of Eastern Europeans (and many others some of which pass through Europe to get here) baling over here and claiming benefits / housing / schooling / health services etc etc they have never paid into. Just like the USA is sick of Mexicans & others from further south. Economic freeloaders. You should know - Merkel invited over a million into Germany - and now expects other countries to "Take their share" - as you know Poland (and others) is having none of this."

This argument is totally nonsensical and the result of falling for propaganda. Most Eastern Europeans work and pay taxes. EU citizens pay on average more than UK citizens.

The EU has rules that enable nation states to ensure that immigrants work before receiving benefits. The UK government "democratically" chose not to enforce those rules mainly because like Germany they need the workers.


"The migration crises of 2015 affected UK how exactly?

You are talking about EU people here this has nothing to do with people from Maghreb, Syria or Afghanistan crossing the middle sea. France defended the Calais tunnel for you.

After Brexit you will have your own middle sea refugees in the North sea. Than you can see how you would handle that better than we, if you have the NGOs saving people from (self inflicted) drowning boats and sending SOS.

Have fun solving that dilemma."
Spot on Ceph

---

3. Do you want market access for goods better than WTO agreement and if so are you willing to accept the rules inside this trade union?
To be looked at in future. The EEC was a good idea - TRADE, The EU is a disaster POLITICAL CONTROL BY GERMANY

So happy to pay more via the WTO?

---

4. Do you want to trade financial services between UK and EU and are you willing to do that on EU rules?



5. Are you willing to acept open borders from People inside the entire EU as Switzerland, Norway & Co do?
NO OPEN BORDERS _ That is what most people here voted for.

Your point at 1 seems to be in direct conflict with this one.

---

6. Are you willing to pay for that market access as Switzerland, Norway & Co do?
NO. Not one penny. WTO rules. (This will cost the EU twice as much as us).

This continual propagation of the idea that the EU is going to be impacted more by Brexit than the UK is just plain silly.


7. Are you willing to Keep environmental rules made by EU if you want to trade like inside a trade union?
If they make sense, yes. (Ask VW about environmental rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Why would you suggest asking VW about environmental rules? Suppose that fits with asking Brexiters about basic economics!

---

8. If you want the borders closed how about cooperations for research projects, military, criminal databases, Euratom and so on...
Each needs looking at on a case by case basis. I can't see any problems here at all.

You think you can decide on a hard Brexit and after that negotiate all those topics (a few hundred) withing 2 months?


These self-same Brexiters who have achieved SFA after 2.5 years will easily be able to sort out these problems, well they can't see any problems

---

9. Are you willing to pay for pensions of former UK citizens in EU parliament like N. Farage or should EU citizens pay for those pensions in the future?
Yes providing those pensions should be paid COMMENSURATE to the years worked in the EU Parliament and not a golden gift.

Who will want to deal with us if we don't pay our way?

---

Its all about fairness and common sense. The likes of Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt, Barnier and the rest of the Brussels club etc have caused most of this upset. Communist / Fascists all.

Describing the Brussels club as Communists / Fascists is just silly. The EU is a neoliberal institution like the rest of the world, I am no fan of the organisation, but it's the best of a bad situation at the moment. Leaving is an irrational decision made on emotional grounds and all the attempts to "blame" the EU and other countries are pathetic.

[evilgenius]

Along the lines of liberal vs. conservative divide, France has withdrawn its ambassador from Italy. A "populist" leader from Italy met with some yellow vest leaders. France has accused Italy of saying too many bad things about it.

[dolanbaker]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47547887
Prime Minister Theresa May's EU withdrawal deal has been rejected by MPs for a second time, throwing her Brexit strategy into further confusion.

MPs voted down her deal by 391 to 242 - a smaller defeat than when they rejected it in January.

The PM said MPs will now get a vote on whether the UK should leave without a deal on 29 March and, if that fails, on whether Brexit should be delayed.

She said Tory MPs will get a free vote on a no-deal Brexit.

So the latest "deal" struck with the EU has been rejected, It was clear that the EU didn't really give Theresa May anything worth going back to parliament that could secure a successful outcome.
Tomorrow the vote is simply "(prey to get a better) Deal" or "no deal", if they can't get a sense of any movement from the EU, a no deal looks the most likely option!

So far the EU is not shifting at all, this leaves Ireland in a difficult position as the EU member most exposed to the fallout of a "no deal" outcome.
One possible outcome is that the republic of Ireland is "quarantined" so as to avoid a hard border with the UK (NI & GB) while having to carry out some customs checks for trade via the mainland EU ports.

[evilgenius]

It's looking like the only real way out is a no deal Brexit. The UK is leaving. There probably won't be another referendum. You have to stop and think about what could happen to the country, no matter which way one would turn out. The EU is not treating the UK like an equal negotiator. They are treating them like a member state. The UK can't get the EU to treat it differently. I don't like it one bit, but in order to get to a point where there are arm's length negotiations taking place the UK probably needs to exit without a deal. That way they can engage the EU in negotiations from the outside, and the EU will have to enter into real bargaining rather than attempting to deal with the situation like an extension of the status quo.

Such negotiations aren't likely to arrive at any sort of whole deal that addresses every aspect of the two side's relationship, but probably an understanding arrived at one piece at a time. The real issue to make certain it doesn't blow up is Northern Ireland. Is the UK, however, going to allow itself to suffer a permanent disadvantage because of a reasonable fear that there might be a few terrorist attacks? Are separated families really going to go violent within hours of a no deal Brexit? Can't leaving be done with some understanding in place that, at least, prevents separation to such an extreme degree that it would provoke people to act within the time frame that occurs between a no deal Brexit and the start of negotiations, where even more provoking issues can be addressed and people given a sense that a good faith relationship is taking place?

Such an understanding should be possible under a no deal Brexit, you'd think. Maybe second to that is the plight of both UK and EU citizens who live in each other's territories. The same sort of stop gap understanding could fill that gap too. What a no deal Brexit might actually compel them to do would be to get right on those issues as one of the very first things they did, when negotiating with each other at a true arm's length distance.

[Outcast_Searcher]

May has ruled out a second referendum, but people have now seen over two years worth of EU "Democracy in action" - and I would not be surprised if any second referendum had a 70% LEAVE vote !!
This also begs the question on what questions would be on any second referendum - it would be weaseled toward remain I'm sure !! (i.e. vote to accept the "deal" or stay in the EU with no option to vote for leave again).

Since the referendum was nonbinding, it still seems to me as an American watching this fiasco unfold (as it is (NOT) being handled by the British politicians), that at least having a 2nd referendum to ask, "Are you SURE, now that this has been in the news and the consequences are better understood (hopefully) by the likely voters"?

No matter how the questions are worded, I'm sure some folks on both sides of the issue won't like some of them. That's just politics over ANY highly divisive issue, the world over, throughout (at least) modern history.

I hope a good solution can be found for Great Britian post-Brexit, but I wouldn't count on the EU being "reasonable" on after so much inaction and cluelessness as all this unfolded.

Maybe I should be happy, as a worsening economy means less GHG's produced, but I hate to see the regular folks suffer due to lack of leadership. (We see plenty of that in the US, but I'd call it corrupt leadership instead of a lack).

[dolanbaker]

Now is the time B day should have happened, but it hasn't.

The next 14 days will be very interesting, it is really not possible predict what will happen

[Newfie]

I’m thinking May was thinking “Even these dolts will figure out that we have limited options.” I’m also thinking May was wrong.

[Zarquon]

I think it's time for a coin toss.