[JLK]

George W. Bush must be the result of 50 years of American apathy and distrust of politics.

Actually, he's the result of special interests gaining power and subverting the will of the electorate. Just as Kerry would be.

[Pops]

Concur.

[EnviroEngr]

Richard gave a stellar presentation at the Midwest Renewable Energy (& Sustainable Living) Fair yesterday (6/20/04) and of all the things he said, this one really stood out: "... Are we really much different from... yeast?" He was making an invitation, after explaining the wine making process, to consider if we're, in actuality, any smarter than yeast? This is an ecologist's angle on human reproduction vis à vis massive energy subsidy. So, from your point of view, are we?

He told me to be sure to rent or buy the "Cane Toads" documentary to get an even better idea about this process.

Grist for the mill.

[rowante]

"Cane Toads" documentary? Personally I like the yeast analogy as much as I like wine (and beer, and vodka, and gin, and...)

Just like yeast we live in an system of reproduction and resource constraints. Endless growth of population is not possible... unless you leave earth. *with a nod to gg3* Endless growth of knowledge on the other hand...

However, the majority of population growth is in the poorest countries. Many other countries Italy, Japan, Australia etc would have shrinking populations if it wasn't for immigration (U.S. too?). As we all now know, it will be impossible for the rest of the developing world to reach a level of personal wealth that inhibits having children, on the basis that this was only possible with cheap energy.

A mature sensible civilisation would practise population control through contraception, abortion and euthanasia. The previous three concepts are perhaps some of the most emotionally controversial concepts because of outdated religious beliefs. Australian Aboriginal populations developed sophisticated methods of the three means of population control. It enabled a sustainable civilisation that lasted 10s of thousands of years, yet to Judeo-Christian culture those practises were barbaric and primitive.

Obviously we cannot return (unless we are forced - Oldavai theory etc) to a hunter gatherer society, so we have to come up with something new. Either way until the ridiculous taboos on population control are abandoned I don't have much hope.

Will people leave behind some thing as fun and useful as alcohol...?

[EnviroEngr]

oh yeah. Now you're talking: http://www.themacallan.com/

Had a 42 year last night. I've come to appreciate smooth.

If ya can't beat the yeast at an IQ test, gotta join 'em then.

[EnviroEngr]

I guess there's a culture among dogs in Australia who have learned to catch a buzz off of licking Cane Toads. If they get too much, ex-dog.

That video is here: AnimWatch

[PhilBiker]

Whoah I can finally post here...

I found this book compelling, frightening, and well researched, a very good read on Peak Oil...

Until the final chapter.

Basically Heinberg goes from a well researched fact-based book into an ultra-left wing political rant / utopian pie-in-the-sky "why can't we all get along" fantasy about how we can deal with the problem. I recommend that If you get this book put it down before reading the last chapter.

[EnviroEngr]

Set pointer to: http://peakoil.com/fortopic727.html

[EnviroEngr]

I could envision Ashcroft throwing rocks at a dog or a person till death.

Sir John has repressed memories we don't even want to know about.

[dmtu]

hmph

Well now that you bumped the thread I know one of you mods changed that post.

[WebHubbleTelescope]

gg3

Only because our chimpanzee-nature is so easily mesmerized by shiny objects.

invariably

A George Moniot quote also sums it up nicely:
Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware.

[stu]

A great introduction to anyone who doesn't understand the concept of Peak Oil. Heinberg starts by describing what energy actually is and how it has shaped the history of humanity and created our modern day society. He then goes on to describe what will happen when the oil runs out and what possible alternatives there are. Concluding there is no possible solution he then finishes by outlining ideas as to what society needs to do in order to prepare for the coming decline of society.

Heinberg writes from an environmentalists point of view and does encourage eco-friendly ideas in his book. His opening chapters on energy are very informative and really make you appreciate the importance of energy in the functioning of society.

Overall a well written book and one which changed the way I looked at the infrastructure of society.

RATING = ****

[EnviroEngr]

{Topic Split from original review.}

[Heineken]

I want to give Heinberg credit for "rocking my world" with his impressive book. Before reading "The Party's Over," my only introduction to the subject had been through "The End of Oil" and the National Geographic article, so I was something of a newbie. Heinberg was a key leg in my introduction to the scarier realities of peak oil.

I agree with those who have criticized the extreme leftist bias of the book. In several key passages, Heinberg made even me---a leftist---uncomfortable, not because of what he was saying, but how he was saying it: just too heavy-handedly and long-windedly. I understand---and share---Heinberg's emotions and frustrations, but someone needs to tell him that as an educator he will be more effective if he doesn't succumb to soapboxism and if he bears more immediately in mind the limitations of the larger, mostly religio-conservative audience he and all of us need to reach.

In the hands of a better editor, Heinberg could have said what he had to say with even more impact.

The book is also marred by some errors in the fundamentals of writing, which the editor should have caught.

[EnviroEngr]

In honor of Richard, I present Smith interrogating Morpheus by introducing his 'revelation':


Agent Smith (AVI) <--- 7.69 MB

Agent Smith (WAV) <--- 843 KB

{Use 'Save Target As...' to avoid browser plug-ins from taking over.}

[EnviroEngr]

.
The Agent Smith Transcript:

I'd like to, share a revelation that I've had, during my time here.
It came to me when, I tried to classify your species,
and I realized that, you're not actually mammals.

Every mammal, on this planet,
instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment,
but you humans do not.

You move to an area, and you multiply,
and multiply until every natural resource is consumed.
And the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.


There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern.
Do you know what it is? A virus.

Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague;
and we, are the cure.

[stu]

But humans are after all still living creatures and just do what living creatures do.

It makes it sound as if the ability to handle tools was the source of our downfall.

[Ludi]

And yet again, tiresomely, confuses our culture with all of humanity.

[EnviroEngr]

And yet again, tiresomely, confuses our culture with all of humanity.

The culture vs. 'all of humanity' argument deserves a good deal more discussion than I have seen on it here so far other than tease lines like the one above; I'm finding it tedious to conscript valid per majorum observations of the human race into a 'culture' only thesis. If there's a white paper here showing how diversity in culture lying outside the rapacious 'civilized' world will blossom after modern (Western) life has annihilated itself, I need to be seeing it. What I'm hearing (because a thorough treatise is lacking) is that there are 'isolates' in the genotype of sapiens sapiens that will produce a culture (whose population can grow to any size, or self-limit) that can live on the Earth indefinitely by harmonizing with and adapting to its environment.

Falling into the department of anthropology, it would take someone with a background in the 'people history' sciences to bring such a production to light. But now that the question of whether or not culture factors will have a bearing on the outcome has been begged, I'd really like to see a well researched and cogent answer. A scholarly production mapping the long range impacts of cultural differences Post Peak in each of the major geographical areas of the world would be a good start. Who will bring this to the table?

[PenultimateManStanding]

What I feel, enviroman, is that some things are out of our hands, the're in God's hands. Que sera, sera. Perhaps the small remnants of Amazonian Indian groups will thrive again. Who knows? Our time is coming and we'll just have to accept it.