[CTL]

I think the obvious thing to do, when rebutting a controversial book, would prudently be to actually read the book first!

Dr. Eben alexander is a highly experienced and well educated neurosurgeon. Himself a rigorous atheist until his near death experience. He himself went through every alternative possible scenario in his book to make sure HE had no alternative explanation as to what happened. DMT, ect. at length were discussed.

When confronted with patients who said 'I had a NDE experience' in his own medical practice; he would say Oh really... and not look any further due to medically trained skepticism. His own near death experience changed all that.

It was an excellent read, and very well researched book. Please read the book before lamenting this honest fellow as a kook!

You are a star.. most brilliant response yet!

[ColossalContrarian]

lol - stone hammers and copper chisels.

Oh, of course! Ancient giant aliens into gene-splicing and rock-carving makes MUCH more sense. Why didn't I see before? All this time I was looking for a reasonable explanation while the crazy conspiracy theory solution was staring me right in the face!

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? No? Maybe you should look it up.

This Church was cut out of one piece of soild stone....

So?

Go on and proclaim insanity in the masses, as I pointed out before you'll turn. You have no choice. DMT is inside you! You can't fight it, you are not superior to it and you will experience it. Will it be a positive or negative experience? It's most peoples last experience and for me I hope it's good!

and since when does "making sense" matter when you're dead?

[Pops]

I'm just as skeptical of a NDE being a memory of an actual event as I'm skeptical the recollection of my dream last night proves Drew Barrymore really thinks I'm the bomb.


Back in the day when science pretty well amounted to the law of "Witches Float", mystical beliefs helped us place ourselves in the world and gave us a little context for our big brains. There was no downside unless you happened to disagree with the prevailing wisdom on the number of pin-head dancers and wound up invited to your own barbecue.

But nowadays, belief in magic for all but the most backward is usually a matter of politics or some other type of pandering. Here from the 2016 POTUS nominee-in-waiting:

Why Marco Rubio Needs To Know That The Earth Is Billions Of Years Old

[Rubio] "...Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to answer that."

[the article's author goes on to say]
... astronomers recently discovered a galaxy that is over 13 billion light years away from Earth. That is, at its distance, it took the light from the Galaxy over 13 billion years to reach us.

Now, Marco Rubio’s Republican colleague Representative Paul Broun, who sits on the House Committee on Science and Technology, recently stated that it was his belief that the Universe is only 9,000 years old. Well, if Broun is right and physicists are wrong, then we have a real problem. Virtually all modern technology relies on optics in some way, shape or form. And in the science of optics, the fact that the speed of light is constant in a vacuum is taken for granted. But the speed of light must not be constant if the universe is only 9,000 years old. It must be capable of being much, much faster. That means that the fundamental physics underlying the Internet, DVDs, laser surgery, and many many more critical parts of the economy are based on bad science.

[vision-master]

Time is measured by the movments of the heavens.

Life is about the movement of the circle.

vm

[evilgenius]

The business of proof is, of course, very interesting. This brings up another, yet related, thing. Is faith a leap or a step? I mean, how closely does faith have to conform to the prevailing notions of reality in order for it to qualify as one or the other? Beyond that, what about the notions of the particular faith itself? Man has this way of enjoining in 'common sense' and applying it to both of these, but man can worship his common sense above all else. It was G.B. Shaw (I think an atheist) who said, "Common sense is not so common." What happens to a Christian who discovers that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? On the surface it seems a tradition ending event, but doesn't it just as much clear away a lot of misconception as to what Christianity was in the first place - that whole Sun going around the Earth thing being a result of enjoined common sense tradition over what any writing ever said? Yes, and what about those writings, who gets to say what they mean?

[Narz]

I'm not a Creationist nor a Evolution guy...... the EVIDENCE points to Intervention. We were created as Molly the sheep was. We are NOT from this Earth.


to a bio-genetically engineered human. Humans are a hybrid species.

Is the fact that people thruout history envisioned animal-headed gods (and still practice such art & cosplay to this day) supposed to be your proof that we were created by some alien Dr. Moreau?

So, you are saying we evolved from apes?

If so, show me the 'missing link'?

Once again, VM, humans did not "evolve" from apes , they ARE apes.

Prove that they are.. detailed description and all.. I want to know more and I want to be persuaded to see your points of view and agree but there is no strong information on this forum in regards to disproving a god.. it's pathetic and exhausting

Exhausting? It's the simpliest thing in the world. No proof of something, no need to believe, it's as simple as taking a breathe. The burden of truth is on the one claiming existance of something. Which is probably why you're so exhausted. Trying to sell to yourself. Relax & give it up & you'll feel better.

[vision-master]

Is the fact that people thruout history envisioned animal-headed gods (and still practice such art & cosplay to this day) supposed to be your proof that we were created by some alien Dr. Moreau?

No, it is written in Genesis, we were created by the Elohim - not gods.

What's interesting about the above picture is the 'pine cone'.

[Narz]

No, it is written in Genesis, we were created by the Elohim - not gods.

Elohim = god/gods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

Not that it matters what was written in Genesis anymore than in Aseop's fables. Like Ms. Cleo, it is for entertainment purposes only.

Why can't you just accept we're animals who've managed to come this far on sheer luck & tenacity? Isn't that amazing enough?

As long as people think we're not of the Earth, that we're better than the Earth, how will we ever respect the Earth. With our eyes in the clouds we befoul our nest but claim it's ok because we don't "belong here".

What's interesting about the above picture is the 'pine cone'.

What about it?

[ian807]

While I'm an agnostic, the interesting question is why the human mind would have evolved for this type of hallucinatory activity. There doesn't appear to be any immediate evolutionary advantage.

[Ibon]

Remember that evolution does not move in a linear progression toward final charactertistics. Feathers were first formed for insulation and then as a byproduct enabled gliding and then flight.

Likewise consciousness is likely a byproduct of a growing cerebral cortex that was selected when as apes we descended from the trees to a more complex terrestial environment and then started to use tools etc.

What would be the selective advantage of being a sentient mortal? There is none. It is a byproduct.

And of this hallucinatory experience. It is hard to know. Perhaps selective pressure dumbed us down also in order to not see objective reality in all its hallucinatory reality....since a 24/7 dose of this might hinder your hunter gatherer skills.

Why assume that selective pressure always opens doors to consciousness. It may also have been advantageous to close doors once the cerebral cortex evolved to a level where these hallucinatory direct objective reality experiences became a disturbung byproduct of basic survival.

Just conjecture..........

And for visionmaster..... I fear we are more likely accidents rather than descendents.

[Narz]

Why did spirtiuality evolve? It's good for morale. I posted in more depth about it elsewhere but can't manage to dig up the post.

Originally I think spirituality (animism) kept people in harmony with their environments. Modern diesm is mostly meant to control the masses & is destructive.

[Narz]

Here's something I posted before about why religion evolved that I still agree with.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthrea ... st11040223

[vision-master]

Elohim = god/gods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

Not that it matters what was written in Genesis anymore than in Aseop's fables. Like Ms. Cleo, it is for entertainment purposes only.

Why can't you just accept we're animals who've managed to come this far on sheer luck & tenacity? Isn't that amazing enough?

As long as people think we're not of the Earth, that we're better than the Earth, how will we ever respect the Earth. With our eyes in the clouds we befoul our nest but claim it's ok because we don't "belong here".

The word Elohim, in the modern Christian Bibles, has been translated with the word "God".
But it is a wrong translation, because the Elohim is a plural term, that indicates a group of flesh and bones individuals, powerful but not omnipotent, and certainly not spiritual nor transcendent.

What is written in the original Hebrew text of the Old Testament has a stunning similarity with what is written in the Sumerian tablets, which are dating to more than 4000 years ago.

Basically the the original Masoretic text of the Old Testament and the ancient Sumerian tablets are telling the same events.

The Sumerian tablets are even more detailed.


http://www.maurobiglino.com/research.php

[vision-master]

And for visionmaster..... I fear we are more likely accidents rather than descendents.

No, there was an actual Adam and Eve, once we begain to procreate, the Elohim removed us from the garden and we had to learn how to look after ourselves. The eating of the apple and knowing good from evil is nonsense. We had to learn there are concequences with our actions.....

[vision-master]

Why did spirtiuality evolve? It's good for morale. I posted in more depth about it elsewhere but can't manage to dig up the post.

Originally I think spirituality (animism) kept people in harmony with their environments. Modern diesm is mostly meant to control the masses & is destructive.

Spirtiuality didn't evolve, it's been with us since the first ones.

Spirtiuality has nothing to do with morale.

Also, don't you mean religion not deism?

[Narz]

Spirtiuality didn't evolve, it's been with us since the first ones.

Of course it evolves, it's still evolving.

Spirtiuality has nothing to do with morale.

It's pretty clear it does. It bonds people with other fellow adherents, it gives a sense of understanding of the world (false perhaps but false unstanding is more appealing to most than truthful uncertainty) and gives a clear guide of what one should do.

Also, don't you mean religion not deism?

Most religion involves dieties, even Buddhism basically worships the various Buddhas as dieties.

[vision-master]

Sounds to me like you NEED lot's of work with your Spirtiual side?

Let me ask you this, how will you know when you are dead?

What's with the pinecones?

[evilgenius]

As I said earlier, is faith a leap or a step? The answer is just like that of love given in the analogy of cooperation in nature. Take the organization of the cells in the body as a for instance. Those cells could have all been out for themselves, each to its own, consuming rather than cooperating in order to form a body. I don't mean the body now as it is seen, but the idea of the early proto-cells coming together to cooperate in a corporate fashion at the beginning. You have the reality that systems built on cooperation succeed, but also that these systems fail when their members become selfish and prey upon the ease with which they can consume their fellow cells which are dumb enough as it were to let down their guard in order to cooperate. The same conundrum exists about the idea of love. In this present world one can enter into a state of love, but the selfish all around will only consume that one. For that one in order to take on love it is a leap because they see their very survival as at stake, and their very survival is what is important. Now, for the one that understands love, however, that love is not only about that one's own survival, but the survival of others too and can see that sacrifice is alright within the whole, then love is a step because it amounts to doing what comes naturally. Faith is also this way insofar as it is easy for those who are said to be "called" to follow God and hard for those who are not called to do so. Faith is also like this insofar as faith was ever about love, so the two concepts will always overlap. Following this, can you see why it is necessary to become a new creature, to in essence become born again in order to enter the kingdom? One can choose the law, which is to say that a reason for every act of cooperation has to be given, or one can choose a new birth.

[Ferretlover]

Not that it matters what was written in Genesis anymore than in Aseop's fables. Like Ms. Cleo, it is for entertainment purposes only.
Why can't you just accept we're animals who've managed to come this far on sheer luck & tenacity? Isn't that amazing enough?

I agree 100%. I just cannot bring myself to live in other 'people's religious fantasies. Religion makes absolutely no sense at all, except as some sort of manipulation strategy.
The human imagination is a remarkable collection of processes. But, the doctor cannot prove a non-existing concept: there is no such thing as Heaven. And, all the wishful thinking in the universe will not make it so.

[lper100km]

I'm of the opinion that it matters not a whit what one believes personally in this life. Whatever happens will happen to all living creatures alike, such is the nature of the universe.

I don't think for a minute that any of our religiously derived or socially developed morals and ethics have any part to play beyond being coping methods to let us all get along in the here and now.

If there is something else, well wonderful, …....maybe. If not, it's the big sleep and one is simply out of it for ever. It seems such a waste though.