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And the shopping continues, unabated

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 16 Sep 2015, 22:33:52

americandream wrote:
Talk of bartering and gifting is premature. We have an inefficient economy with hurdles established by the likes of the Cogs of this world who fear competition and in the process stir ignorance and fear in a bid to block competition, in the process dominating existing social relations in incompetent ways that fail to extract value efficiently.

This is what underlies many of the cycles...added to that calls by self interested parties such as gold bugs, regionalists and Earth Firsters running on gut instinct and not data and billions are lost by the panic that is induced by these klutz.

Free up capitalism and competition and we create the basis for stability and measured approaches to issues such as long term forms and structures and of course, even ethnic representation on the planet........and not the current imbalanced boat with everyone apparently headed for the Western deck.


Given the size of the global population (and one that boomed within only a few decades) and increasing consumption of energy and material resources worldwide, I think the global economy is not exactly inefficient.

The examples given in your second paragraph show not the lack of competition but the opposite.

Given that, there is no need to free up capitalism and competition, as the topic threads shows otherwise.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 02:27:26

Before ADs latest sojourn he has decided to get on the full blown NWO bandwagon. He's gone a little nuts since his tapestry lost a few threads.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby GregT » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 02:46:52

ennui2 wrote:Still replaying 2008 endlessly. Get over it. Nobody buys your argument which is why there are only maybe a half dozen active posters on this site.


You, ennui2, are a prime example of why democracy will never work. Intelligent people will always be overwhelmed by not so intelligent people. You, are in the vast majority ennui2. It really should be no wonder as to why our species is in such dire straights. We are completely surrounded by people like you.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby GregT » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 02:58:55

Sorry, I just put my tinfoil hat back on.

It's the stupid people that are conspiring to control the rest of us. They're just so dumb that the rest of the sheep will follow them. Baaaa!
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 03:28:33

pstarr wrote:And you still have not answered the Billion-Dollar question: how does a zero-sum oil-future contract between two parties (in which one wins and the other loses in equal amount), settled at maturity could possibly affect the cost and price of crude oil at the terminal?

Futures are just a way for producers and major consumers of widely used commodities to hedge their prices. That's it. Whether it be oil or copper or soybeans.

Why is it a problem that it's zero sum? It's insurance for the producers and major consumers (unlike the speculators). Do you burn your house down periodically so you don't "lose" money on your homeowner's insurance?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 07:17:43

GregT wrote:You, ennui2, are a prime example of why democracy will never work.


Read Animal Farm again. I'm beyond finger-pointing. People are people and elites have all the same urges as the rest of us. They just had the means and opportunity to do what most of the rest of us aspire to do. We're a flawed species. Beyond that, it's our personal responsibility to exercise our free will and not just throw up our collective hands and say "we were brainwashed" to buy that trinket or buy that house with the liar-loan. We should exercise personal responsibility for the decisions we make and not keep playing the brainwashed-card.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 13:10:23

Given that even chimpanzes engage in warfare, I'm not so convinced that human nature is as benign as noble-savage mythologizers believe. I also don't believe that culture evolves in a vacuum. Culture is the product of humans, and therefore no popular culture is outside of the system. How we behave is who we are, period. It's not a meme/virus. It's a facet of who we are, perpetuated by flaws in who we are that buy into the sales pitches. To think anything else is to attempt to play guilt/blame games.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 21:07:59

If we are a flawed species it is because we have allowed our education to hijacked by the psychopaths, the uber-capitalists. Hence your ignorance. The only thing more onerous to the ruling elite than communism is the study of ecology and human behavior. But this is not the place, and you are not the student.

Pstar is really onto something. It is high we all wake up and realize that the word psychopath is totally applicable to the ruling elite. If one does research one will discover that certain families have passed the mantle of rule from generation to generation and certainly of wealth. The conditions by which these people have evolved are different than you or I. They are addicted to wealth and power and crave it no end. This has distorted their sense of empathy and other positive humane virtues. Yes humans have a gamut of emotions and impulses that range from very good to pretty bad. However, we are not comparable to the elites because we do not have the scope of influence that they do. The wars, the extreme capitalistic predatory economic system, the unequal and unjust world we live in today is in no small measure due to the influence and decisions of a relatively few very high up wealthy and powerful people and families. Think Rothchilds, Rockefellers and Bush among others. To not discern this condition by which humanity has evolved is to not understand the influence the decisions made by few have had on human culture and civilization.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 23:54:14

onlooker wrote:The conditions by which these people have evolved are different than you or I.


No they're not.

onlooker wrote:They are addicted to wealth and power and crave it no end.


Look at the cover of a hip-hop record and tell me the poor don't want wealth and power.

Image

And some of the richest and most powerful started off dirt-poor.

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Sam-Walmart-Am ... B004RKXHA4

Growing up poor has a way of giving some people a drive to acquire. People who are already rich don't really need to acquire more, just protect what they have.

onlooker wrote:This has distorted their sense of empathy and other positive humane virtues.


Again, plenty of examples of salt of the earth that lack empathy. A stroll through the back-woods of West Virginia or South Central LA would probably open your eyes on this front.

onlooker wrote:However, we are not comparable to the elites because we do not have the scope of influence that they do.


We have more influence than you think. We enable them when we buy their goods and elect them to power. Think of how strong the mindset of limited government and deregulation.

I am tired of this narrative that the masses are these doe-like little creatures that are so easily misled that they can't be held responsible for their stupidity. Everyone contributes to this in their own way, either by exploiting others or being complicit in their own exploitation.

Greed is a universal human vice. It's not limited to rich families.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 01:39:57

ennui2 wrote:And some of the richest and most powerful started off dirt-poor.
The exception that proves the rule.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 04:58:40

Okay Ennui I am willing to concede some of your points about the common masses however your curt dismissal of the influence of the elite is not convincing to me. They do have an inordinate drive for power and their influence precisely because they are at the top of the totem pole and make decisions that affect many is much more pernicious to all of society. Yes the cumulative decisions of the masses have great influence also. Again this is also about degrees yet when some few are bestriding the world completely cut off from the daily struggles and realities that most who live on Earth have to deal with then I would characterize that as being a distinct and unique feature of the super wealthy and elite . Oh and also having the power to make decisions that can and do affect millions if not billions of people that is a pretty unique feature. The intoxicating nature of greed and power in a human is something both fascinating but also scary.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 06:50:47

onlooker wrote:Oh and also having the power to make decisions that can and do affect millions if not billions of people that is a pretty unique feature.


But what is the value of this observation? The Koch brothers or Rex Tillerman are bad people? I'll grant you that. Where do we go with that other than feeling victimized?

As for referencing cabals of old-money like the Rothchilds, that's teetering into tinfoil territory. I've got my sh*t-list of elites. They just don't necessarily match yours.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 07:28:54

Thanks Ennui, for the reply. Yes very interesting this discussion of elites and the masses and their contribution to the mess we are in. I am not sure we can go anywhere with this knowledge other then maybe in the future if humans and human society is still around to learn so that we can at least try to erect a human collective whereby we can run our affairs in a manner to that will generally benefit the entire society and not have such a top-down approach which can be conducive to warping those in power to become a liability to society rather than a benefit. Also, attracting those types (overly greedy and power hungry) to these high positions. What is that famous adage "power corrupts and total power corrupts totally" I do believe one thing in the question of nature vs. nurture , I lean much more towards nurture. I believe, humans are to a large measure products of the environment which we are born to and live in. Case example a world such as ours overly focused on consumption and luxury is bound to enhance our impulsive accumulative nature.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 10:03:01

One of the things TOD wrote about which actually still sticks with me is the psychological basis behind all this, both the consumption thing and the denial thing. Once I read through some of those arguments I realized how selfish and irrational humans are and stopped expecting people to go through some Zeitgeist movement or Deep Ecology style epiphany.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby Cog » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 15:31:39

The only retailer I am making rich is the ammo company.
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Re: And the shopping continues, unabated

Unread postby jupiters_release » Sat 19 Sep 2015, 18:30:22

americandream wrote:
ralfy wrote:A free market involves prices and competition. One that is governed by physical limitations in the natural environment may involve something like bartering or a gift economy.


Talk of bartering and gifting is premature. We have an inefficient economy with hurdles established by the likes of the Cogs of this world who fear competition and in the process stir ignorance and fear in a bid to block competition, in the process dominating existing social relations in incompetent ways that fail to extract value efficiently.

This is what underlies many of the cycles...added to that calls by self interested parties such as gold bugs, regionalists and Earth Firsters running on gut instinct and not data and billions are lost by the panic that is induced by these klutz.

Free up capitalism and competition and we create the basis for stability and measured approaches to issues such as long term forms and structures and of course, even ethnic representation on the planet........and not the current imbalanced boat with everyone apparently headed for the Western deck.


A society's system of money is inseparable from other aspects of its relationship to the world and the relationships among its members. Money as we know it today both reflects and propels the objectification of the world, the paradigm of competition, and the depersonalization and atomization of society. We should therefore expect that any authentic change in these conditions would necessarily also involve a change in our system of money.

As a matter of fact, there are money systems that encourage sharing not competition, conservation not consumption, and community, not anonymity. Pilot versions of such systems have been around for at least a hundred years now, but because they are inimical to the larger patterns of our culture, they have been marginalized or even actively suppressed. Meanwhile, many creative proposals for new modes of industry such as Paul Hawken's Ecology of Commerce, and many green design technologies, are uneconomic under the current money system. The alternative money systems I describe below will naturally induce the economies described by visionaries such as Hawken, E.F. Schumacher, Herman Daly, and others. They will also reverse the progressive nationalization and globalization of every economic sector, revitalize communities, and contribute to the elimination of the "externalities" that put economic growth at odds with human happiness and planetary health.

Given the determining role of interest, the first alternative currency system to consider is one that structurally eliminates it. As the history of the Catholic Church demonstrates, laws and admonitions against interest are ineffective if its structural necessity is still present in the nature of the currency. A structural solution is needed, such as the system proposed by Silvio Gesell in The Natural Economic Order. Gesell's "free-money" (as he called it) bears a form of negative interest called demurrage. Periodically, a stamp costing a tiny fraction of the currency's denomination must be affixed to it, in effect a "user fee" or a "maintenance cost"; another way to look at it is that the currency "goes bad"—depreciates in value—as it ages.[3]

If this sounds like a radical proposal that could never work, it may surprise you to learn that no less an authority than John Maynard Keynes praised the theoretical soundness of Gesell's ideas. What's more, the system has actually been tried out with great success.

Although demurrage was applied as long ago as Ancient Egypt in the form of a storage cost for commodity-backed currency,[4] the best-known example was instituted in the town of Worgl, Austria, in 1932 by its famous mayor Uttenguggenberger. To remain valid, each piece of this locally-issued currency required a monthly stamp costing 1% of its face value. Instead of generating interest and growing, accumulation of wealth became a burden—much like possessions are a burden to the nomadic hunter-gatherer. People therefore spent their income quickly, generating intense economic activity in the town. The unemployment rate plummeted even as the rest of the country slipped into a deepening depression; public works were completed, and prosperity continued until the Worgl currency was outlawed in 1933 at the behest of a threatened central bank.

Demurrage produces a number of profound economic, social, and psychological effects. Conceptually, demurrage works by freeing material goods, which are subject to natural cyclic processes of renewal and decay, from their linkage with a money that only grows, exponentially, over time. As established in Chapter Four, this dynamic is what is driving us toward ruin in the utter exhaustion of all social, cultural, natural, and spiritual wealth. Demurrage currency merely subjects money to the same laws as natural commodities, whose continuing value requires maintenance. Gesell writes:

Gold does not harmonise with the character of our goods. Gold and straw, gold and petrol, gold and guano, gold and bricks, gold and iron, gold and hides! Only a wild fancy, a monstrous hallucination, only the doctrine of "value" can bridge the gulf. Commodities in general, straw, petrol, guano and the rest can be safely exchanged only when everyone is indifferent as to whether he possesses money or goods, and that is possible only if money is afflicted with all the defects inherent in our products. That is obvious. Our goods rot, decay, break, rust, so only if money has equally disagreeable, loss-involving properties can it effect exchange rapidly, securely and cheaply. For such money can never, on any account, be preferred by anyone to goods.

Only money that goes out of date like a newspaper, rots like potatoes, rusts like iron, evaporates like ether, is capable of standing the test as an instrument for the exchange of potatoes, newspapers, iron and ether. For such money is not preferred to goods either by the purchaser or the seller. We then part with our goods for money only because we need the money as a means of exchange, not because we expect an advantage from possession of the money.

In other words, money as a medium of exchange is decoupled from money as a store of value. No longer is money an exception to the universal tendency in nature toward rust, mold, rot and decay—that is, toward the recycling of resources. No longer does money perpetuate a human realm separate from nature.

Gesell's phrase, "... a monstrous hallucination, the doctrine of 'value'..." hints at an even more subtle and more potent effect of demurrage. What is he talking about? Value is the doctrine that assigns to each object in the world a number. It associates an abstraction, changeless and independent, with that which always changes and that exists in relationship to all else. Demurrage reverses this thinking and thus removes an important boundary between the human realm and the natural realm. When money is no longer preferred to goods, we will lose the habit of thinking in terms of how much something is "worth".

Whereas interest promotes the discounting of future cash flows, demurrage encourages long-term thinking. In present-day accounting, a rain forest generating one million dollars a year sustainably forever is more valuable if clearcut for an immediate profit of 50 million dollars. (In fact, the net present value of the sustainable forest calculated at a discount rate of a mere 5% is only $20 million.) This discounting of the future results in the infamously short-sighted behavior of corporations that sacrifice (even their own) long-term well-being for the short-term results of the fiscal quarter. Such behavior is perfectly rational in an interest-based economy, but in a demurrage system, pure self-interest would dictate that the forest be preserved. No longer would greed motivate the robbing of the future for the benefit of the present. As the exponential discounting of future cash flows implies the "cashing in" of the entire earth, as illustrated in Chapter Four, this feature of demurrage is highly attractive.

Whereas interest tends to concentrate wealth, demurrage promotes its distribution. In any economy with a specialization of labor beyond the family level, human beings need to perform exchanges in order to survive. Both interest and demurrage represent a fee for the use of money, but the key difference is that in the former system, the fee accrues to those who already have money, while in the latter system it is levied upon those who have money. Wealth comes with a high maintenance cost, thereby recreating the dynamics that governed hunter-gatherer attitudes toward accumulations of possessions.

Whereas security in an interest-based system comes from accumulating money, in a demurrage system it comes from having productive channels through which to direct it—that is, to become a nexus of the flow of wealth and not a point for its accumulation. In other words, it puts the focus on relationships, not on "having". Metaphorically, then, and perhaps more than metaphorically, the demurrage system accords with a different sense of self, affirmed not by defining more and more of the world within the confines of me and mine, but by developing and deepening relationships with others. In other words, it encourages reciprocation, sharing, and the rapid circulation of wealth. It is conceivable that wealth in a demurrage system would evolve into something akin to the model of the Pacific Northwest or Melanesia, in which a leader "acts as a shunting station for goods flowing reciprocally between his own and other like groups of society."[5] These "big man" societies were not fully egalitarian and bore some degree of centricity, as perhaps is necessary in any economy with more than a very basic division of labor; the key point is that leadership was not associated with the accumulation of money or possessions, but rather with a huge responsibility for generosity. Can you imagine a society where the greatest prestige, power, and leadership accorded to those with the greatest inclination and capacity for generosity?
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