[emersonbiggins]

Before we go about spending any great deal of money on high-speed rail, Congress needs to revisit the onerous regulations placed on passenger rail by the FRA, basically requiring any passenger train that traverses, even for a few dozen feet, on freight tracks to be built to hefty standards, often several multiples of the weight of trains in other countries. This is one reason that the Acela is not as successful as it should be in terms of cost of manufacture and operation, and this on what should be one of the most profitable routes for high-speed rail in existence. Extrapolating the current antiquated system regulations to other routes in the U.S. will only prove even more burdensome to overcome, both in terms of cost and profitability.

At any rate, we should be talking about a traffic and grade-separated system, and not mixing modes (pax + freight) in any meaningful manner. The existing freight routes simply don't have the capacity for large-scale passenger movements.

[Graeme]

Fed up flyers flirt with train travel

After idling for decades, train travel in the United States, while not quite out of the station, is beginning to work up a healthy head of steam.

And experts say that is thanks largely to the mounting hassles and tacked-on costs of traveling by air.

"The airlines are prompting a renewed interest in rail travel," said Margie Jordan, CEO of ASAP Travel, based in Jacksonville, Florida.

"Clients paying extra for checked bags, carry-on bags, blankets, pillows, headsets, food, drinks and, in the case of Ryanair, even to use the toilet, are looking for a less expensive option," she said. "It's nice to see the resurgence of a travel experience that had seemingly lost its luster."

reuters

[Novus]

Too bad there is no volcano in the US to shut down air travel for weeks on end.

[mattduke]

Amtrak has unveiled the nation's first biodiesel train, with a surprise twist -- the fuel is derived from beef byproducts.

Yes, beef.
http://www.popsci.com/technology/articl ... r-train-us

[Keith_McClary]

[Googolplex]

Awsome! I already run my car on chocolate and heat my home with wine.

This is the next step, the world is saved.

[buddylee]

I bet that would smell incredible going down the track. Mmmmmmmm

[Tanada]

Despite all the complaints that Americans have about Amtrak, the federal passenger train service, it is a very fuel efficient way to travel, and the longer the distance the more the efficiency adds up. When 9/11 took place a lot of people who were nervous fliers decided to just stop flying and as the TSA security measures have become increasingly obnoxious more have dropped out of the casual flier market.

For short trips most of these people automatically defaulted to driving, and are still in that mode. For longer trips however some have switched each year to train travel. Amtrak announced last fall that they set a new record for passengers in 2012.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/636/294/Amt ... 12-092.pdf
Page 5 is a graph of ridership showing an increase from 20.9 million annually in 2000 to 31.2 million for fiscal year 2012.

It still only accounts for 10% of the USA buying a passenger train ticket each year, but clearly Amtrak is becoming a much more important travel option for average Americans.

[ROCKMAN]

Tanada – I suppose that depends where you are. The folks in New England may see the benefit.

But an Amtrak ride from Houston to New Orleans costs $65 compared to my $55 gasoline bill. One could argue about the total cost of owning a vehicle but I own one whether I want to drive to N.O. or take the train. But that’s not the worst disincentive. I can make the drive in 5.5 hours and the train takes 9.5 hours. And there’s the lagniappe to driving: I can stop in Lafayette and pick up some Cajun marinated rabbit at Don’s food market. LOL. Long ago I thought about taking Amtrak from Seattle across the Rockies in winter. But the train left Seattle at sunset and arrived in Glacier Nat Park at sunrise. And with a sleeping compartment cost as much as a puddle jumper. But I eventually made such a great trip via BC Rail and the Canadian Via. Not only got to see mountain views you never see from the highway but it was also very affordable. Just like taking the ferry (with a cabin room) from northern BC through the Inland Passage back to Vancouver.

You, I and probably many others here have taken trains all around the world and just lament how poor our system is to others.

[dinopello]

The key to trains being useful is intermodal connectivity. If you have that the train is very convienent. We went to an Orioles game a few weeks ago with a big group. Took the metro to UnionStation, hopped on the Amtrack to Penn Station Baltimore and walked to Camden yard. Easy Peasy.

[ROCKMAN]

dino - Like they say when it works it works great. When they pitched Houston's first light rail they offered the convenience of folks staying downtown making it via rail to the sports arena area. First big game a very bad scene: folks waiting for hours to catch the train to go just a few miles. It's not designed to carry a lot of folks at one time...cars are way to small/short. And instead of converting a former freight line that ran 30+ miles towards downtown from the west they tore out the rails and replaced with an expanded freeway system that cost hundreds of $millions. Texas is very good at a lot of things. Rail is not one of them.

[Tanada]

Tanada – I suppose that depends where you are. The folks in New England may see the benefit.

But an Amtrak ride from Houston to New Orleans costs $65 compared to my $55 gasoline bill. One could argue about the total cost of owning a vehicle but I own one whether I want to drive to N.O. or take the train. But that’s not the worst disincentive. I can make the drive in 5.5 hours and the train takes 9.5 hours. And there’s the lagniappe to driving: I can stop in Lafayette and pick up some Cajun marinated rabbit at Don’s food market. LOL. Long ago I thought about taking Amtrak from Seattle across the Rockies in winter. But the train left Seattle at sunset and arrived in Glacier Nat Park at sunrise. And with a sleeping compartment cost as much as a puddle jumper. But I eventually made such a great trip via BC Rail and the Canadian Via. Not only got to see mountain views you never see from the highway but it was also very affordable. Just like taking the ferry (with a cabin room) from northern BC through the Inland Passage back to Vancouver.

You, I and probably many others here have taken trains all around the world and just lament how poor our system is to others.

I kinda get where you are coming from, my closest Amtrak station is in Toledo, Ohio in a very rough neighborhood. When I took Amtrak heading towards Boston I had to board at 2:30 in the AM, there were only two trains going east each day, one to Boston and one to D.C., but you could change trains to get to New York or other east coast destinations a way down the track in Pittsburgh. The biggest problem was the slow rate of travel because Amtrak foolishly did not buy up tracks when they were sold off or abandoned so they have to share space with freight trains. An average freight train goes 45 mph so if you are in line behind one you do too. On the Northeast routes where Amtrak is most profitable they own their own track so they can scoot along at 75 or 80 mph with no freight traffic to worry about. There are or rather were thousands of miles of track the freight lines decommissioned since Amtrak was formed in 1971. Some of those were sold to short line railroads like I mentioned in the Trains thread, but many more of them were abandoned with the track, ties and ballast removed. Amtrak should have been buying these 'excess' freight lines whenever they came available, but common sense and government rarely fit in the same paragraph, let alone sentence. Despite many years of poor management and poor funding Amtrak has survived and is now growing quickly in ridership. Hopefully they will grow in management skill to match their growth in passenger numbers.

[ROCKMAN]

Tanada - I'm sure it's very frustrating for you with your knowledge base to think about what might have been done over the last 30 or 40 years at a relatively affordable rate of expenditure compared to what a massive effort it would be today. OTOH when you look at what we've done with the US highway systems (both local and federal) it really is a great accomplishment. Unfortunately not the only direction where we really needed to go. We still wouldn't be the EU given the lay of the land but we could easily have had some high speed rail between major hubs by now. As much as the need may develop in the future it's still hard for me to expect the POD will allow those types of investments. Not that the need won't be obvious but the time/capex won't be available.

[dinopello]

Just as towns and everything needs to be design to accomodate an automobile society, for trains to work well the land-use has to be designed for the train mode.

Every town or store that expects to accomodate a car based mode has to set aside about 250 sq feet of storage for each individual you expect to arrive. Most places, it is expected that this storage is free (ie subsidized). If you didn't have this storage (aka parking) the whole mode of automobile travel would be infeasible - despite the great highway system. People would arrive by car but have nowhere to store their car while they do whatever it is they came to do. Maybe they could go through a drive-in McDonalds or drive-in movie theatre but that's about it.

The same is true with trains. People don't need the storage when arriving by train but they do need the places they want to use to be in close proximity (to walk).

These two modes are somehwat at odds. Either you put the automobile storage on vast swaths of paved surface - which takes up a lot of real estate and will spread out everything (no proximate uses feasible). Or, you put the car storage in structures above or below ground, which causes it to be pretty expensive.

If there was no subsidies for anything, I propose that we would gradually end back up with a more balanced transportation system with a lot more rail and a lot more walking and biking.

[Tanada]

Just as towns and everything needs to be design to accomodate an automobile society, for trains to work well the land-use has to be designed for the train mode.

Every town or store that expects to accomodate a car based mode has to set aside about 250 sq feet of storage for each individual you expect to arrive. Most places, it is expected that this storage is free (ie subsidized). If you didn't have this storage (aka parking) the whole mode of automobile travel would be infeasible - despite the great highway system. People would arrive by car but have nowhere to store their car while they do whatever it is they came to do. Maybe they could go through a drive-in McDonalds or drive-in movie theatre but that's about it.

The same is true with trains. People don't need the storage when arriving by train but they do need the places they want to use to be in close proximity (to walk).

These two modes are somehwat at odds. Either you put the automobile storage on vast swaths of paved surface - which takes up a lot of real estate and will spread out everything (no proximate uses feasible). Or, you put the car storage in structures above or below ground, which causes it to be pretty expensive.

If there was no subsidies for anything, I propose that we would gradually end back up with a more balanced transportation system with a lot more rail and a lot more walking and biking.

I would be Okay with that, a great many people in the USA consider having to walk two blocks a great hardship. When I was in elementary school any kid who lived within a mile of the school had to walk to and from school no matter what the weather outside was. I lived two and a half miles from school and the bus driver would routinely drop us off at the corner of our country road, a quarter mile from home.

I don't object to the bus system if it is run right, but who decides what is right? To some people right would mean you call and the bus shows up in front of your door and stops where you want it too, like a taxi. For others a stop every eight blocks is good, that way no-one has to walk more than half a mile to get to a bus stop.

For the trains dedicated routes would eliminate congestion and allow schedules to be better kept. Lots of small towns still have an old track running through but no local freight business, make some of these places Amtrak stops and you just sped the service up without having to do anything extraordinary to get there.

[dinopello]

When I was in elementary school any kid who lived within a mile of the school had to walk to and from school no matter what the weather outside was.

It's still that way in places like where I live. Bus Policy

Free school bus transportation is provided to and from school for students living beyond a 1-mile walking distance from elementary schools and a 1.5-miles walking distance from middle and high schools. Over 45 percent of APS students ride buses to and from school.

Some of the non bus takers get rides from parents, but the majority walk or bike. The big thing around here is the mom's keeping eyes out for kids biking without helmets. The new technology (neighborhood listserv) means a kid gets called out in front of the whole neighborhood when some mom sees them without their helmet.

[ROCKMAN]

Oddly enough I grew up with great public transport in New Orleans: all the major street had continuous bus and electric street car service. Even had electric busses on some routes. Stops every couple of blocks in most areas. I never had to walk more than 3 or 4 blocks. And cheap: I could take 3 busses using free transfers after paying one fare. Took the bus during my entire 4 years going to the Un. of New Orleans: a 12 mile r/t that cost about $20/month. Then came to Texas assuming everyone had the same public transport. I was VERY wrong. LOL. Except for the suburban commuter bus I've never been on a Houston bus.

[Subjectivist]

When I was a kid the Detroit Urban Railroad tracks still ran through Monroe, MI. You saw them down town going to the J.C. Penny store that used to be in the city. The line ran from a connector in Toledo, Ohio all the way to Novi, Michigan. Trivia point to anyone who knew Novi was named for the last stop at the north end on the DUR, No. VI. People decided it ws a conveinant place to build an early suburb of Detroit because the DUR took you right to the city at No. V, then as you went south No. III was down town Monroe and No. IV was the lakefront resort district. Further south LaSalle, Michigan was No. II and Toledo, Ohio was No. I. At No. I in Toledo you could transfer to the Cleveland route which passed through several lakefront towns between the two cities. For a minimal fare back int the early 1950's you could commute all the way from Cleveland, Ohio to Detroit, Michigan in about six hours.

[oilfreeandhappy]

We're planning a trip from Denver to Chicago, and we have decided to travel Amtrak. We've done this before, but it was frustrating, as we got caught for over 4 hours at a malfunctioning drawbridge in Chicago, about a mile or two from the train station. Just sat there....

I was saddened to hear that Florida cancelled their high speed rail project between Orlando and Tampa. This line was very encouraged by "Amtrak" Joe Biden and Obama, shortly after their first election win.

[Plantagenet]

high speed rail ... encouraged by "Amtrak" Joe Biden and Obama, shortly after their first election win.

High Speed Rail needs more than encouragement. It needs money---lots of money to build it.

Obama only put about $10 billion of his 970 billion dollars of "stimulus" money into high speed rail. Almost all of that seems to have been dithered away, with almost no high speed rail actually being built.


Obama "encourages" High Speed Rail, but has never bother to actually allocate much money for high speed rail in his budgets.