[Pops]

Thanks for not getting nasty.

I expected about this reaction though, PO.com would certainly vote unanimously for Eeyore's platform:

1. it's no use
2. won't work
3. they're all the same

Being a POer, I also think lots of the stuff won't do anything, teachers are a special interest group and can't be that large, tax breaks to hire 99ers, come on. As for the trade treaties, the globalism ship has already sailed and Americans haven't made tee shirts in a generation so what's to lose?

Adjusting the entitlements to reflect current incomes and longevity just makes sense so if that's a chip then throw it in the pot. OTOH I have no problem with bondholders effectively paying the US to borrow money and use that money to stimulate the economy, if it's successful and growth returns, then paying the piper isn't a problem, if it fails it doesn't matter anyway right.

Conservatives say we should allow the investor class to keep more of their gains so they'll make jobs with the money. The problem is that the investor class is sitting on all the money already! They've been allowed to keep so much of their gain that the consuming class has nothing left with which to consume and a much lower net worth so less credit to boot.

It's a demand problem not a supply problem - Ronnie saw to that. The only way to induce some life is to shock the cadaver into another fit of consumption by pumping money into it's pockets. If we rebuild a few bridges so much the better.

I'm with you MD, it's not what I'd suggest if I were Barry's PO Tsar, but no one really expects that speech anytime soon do they?

[Sixstrings]

1. it's no use
2. won't work
3. they're all the same[/i]

Our new mascot:

Conservatives say we should allow the investor class to keep more of their gains so they'll make jobs with the money. The problem is that the investor class is sitting on all the money already! They've been allowed to keep so much of their gain that the consuming class has nothing left with which to consume and a much lower net worth so less credit to boot.

It's a demand problem not a supply problem - Ronnie saw to that. The only way to induce some life is to shock the cadaver into another fit of consumption by pumping money into it's pockets. If we rebuild a few bridges so much the better.

Well put. But it will take more than bridges. We need some demand side economics.

What we need, that nobody will dare admit, is some good old fashioned wealth redistribution. You're right about the problem Pops, the rich have all the money but they're either sitting on it or pumping commodities or rolling in krugerrands or investing in China / Australia / Brazil / anywhere BUT here. Or they invest in the paper stock market, which never hits the real economy. Farmville being worth $40 billion or whatever doesn't do Mainstreet any good.

We need wealth redistribution. The rich have it all, it must be taken from them and spread out so it can circulate in the real economy.

We don't have to become the Soviet Union to do this -- why can't we just become Australia? $14 minimum wage. Single payer universal healthcare. High taxes on the rich and corporations. Throw in some tariffs on China and voila, problem solved give me a Nobel peace prize.

[peeker01]

You forgot the carbon tax they are about to enact. Give it a rest strings, those things will
never happen here.

[AgentR11]

If we rebuild a few bridges so much the better.

No bridges get built with stimulus type funds. Just the permitting process, impact studies, engineering, etc put them way over the acceptable horizon for something titled stimulus. Everyone should have learned that from the first round of BS shoveling, I mean, "shovel ready". About the most infrastructure you can do with stimulus is pouring fresh asphalt on older roads; which really is very low on the labor vs material balance, ie few jobs, a bunch of rocks and goo, and little stimulus that ends up in the hands of lower and middle class consumers.

If you wanted to build something with stimulus funds, you'd have to included legislated-in waivers for specific projects to prevent agency and private party litigation from holding up the projects. Because hold them up is exactly what many private parties want to do, always. And how many democrats would support bridge projects with waivers preventing the epa, sierra club, and boys for bugs and trout, from tying them up in litigation.

Thus the problem with stimulus, and why we can't get piddle worthwhile for our stimulus spending.

[Pops]

Hey wait a minute, Im a member of boys for bugs and trout!
<Fly Rod

Half a trillion probably isn't gonna get much built and what does a peaker like me want a bunch of new cloverleaf interchanges for anyway?

It's the cash bouncing around a time or two before it's sucked into some Payday Loan vortex that counts - theoretically.

[Cloud9]

We are all frogs and we are getting boiled. The trick is to slowly turn up the heat.

[Cog]

You know its bad when Obama can't even get some props from the usual suspects on this board.

[PrestonSturges]

Thanks for not getting nasty.

I expected about this reaction though, PO.com would certainly vote unanimously for Eeyore's platform:

1. it's no use
2. won't work
3. they're all the same

4. OMG!!! He's BLACK!!!!!

I wish I was kidding, but as soon as Obama says "jobs" someone says "Kenyan."

Conservatives say we should allow the investor class to keep more of their gains so they'll make jobs with the money. The problem is that the investor class is sitting on all the money already! They've been allowed to keep so much of their gain that the consuming class has nothing left with which to consume and a much lower net worth so less credit to boot.

This is what economists call a "liquidity trap." When inflation is zero, there is no point in investing anything, because there is no rate of inflation to beat. When there are deflationary pressures, cash is king. I think taxes should be very very high, with extremely generous deductions for investing in job creation.

[careinke]

Thanks for not getting nasty.

I expected about this reaction though, PO.com would certainly vote unanimously for Eeyore's platform:

1. it's no use
2. won't work
3. they're all the same

4. OMG!!! He's BLACK!!!!!

I wish I was kidding, but as soon as Obama says "jobs" someone says "Kenyan."

No, I think they are saying "Keynesian."

[PrestonSturges]

Good one.

[Pops]

No, I think they are saying "Keynesian."

Beat me

[beamofthewave]

That Georgia program he talked about is where you work for free for a business in the hopes they will hire you . Can anyone say "slavery?" so of course the Republicans love it. All they want to do is cut medicare without ticking off too many Americans. He could fix the problem totally by just having a debt jubilee and allowing all Americans to utilize the VA and building enough VA hospitals to take care of all of us. Why not claw back that Wall street money, that 12 trillion?

[careinke]

I thought Obama's speech was pretty good. It kind of reminded me when Bill Clinton figured out he had to work with the Republicans, who at the time owned the Congress. The results worked out pretty well.

[Cog]

That Georgia program he talked about is where you work for free for a business in the hopes they will hire you . Can anyone say "slavery?" so of course the Republicans love it. All they want to do is cut medicare without ticking off too many Americans. He could fix the problem totally by just having a debt jubilee and allowing all Americans to utilize the VA and building enough VA hospitals to take care of all of us. Why not claw back that Wall street money, that 12 trillion?

You can have your debt jubilee right after you pay me back for all the free stuff I have provided the mooch class.

[gollum]

That Georgia program he talked about is where you work for free for a business in the hopes they will hire you . Can anyone say "slavery?" so of course the Republicans love it. All they want to do is cut medicare without ticking off too many Americans. He could fix the problem totally by just having a debt jubilee and allowing all Americans to utilize the VA and building enough VA hospitals to take care of all of us. Why not claw back that Wall street money, that 12 trillion?

You can have your debt jubilee right after you pay me back for all the free stuff I have provided the mooch class.

There will be some sort of debt jubilee one way or the other either through inflation or default.

[Plantagenet]

There will be some sort of debt jubilee one way or the other either through inflation or default.

Bzzzzt!

Default is the OPPOSITE of a debt jubilee.


And inflation is no fun for working people either!

[gollum]

There will be some sort of debt jubilee one way or the other either through inflation or default.

Bzzzzt!

Default is the OPPOSITE of a debt jubilee.


And inflation is no fun for working people either!

The result is the same, debts are effectivley cancelled and the economy is reset.

[Duende]

I'm with you on this, Pops. 99% of us are on our way to getting poorer over the coming years. The unstated goal for those in the know I guess is to get poorer as slow as possible. Admirable I suppose. I too am a frog who would prefer to boil slowly.

Six - I agree with you on the off-shoring issue. It's incredible - INCREDIBLE - that in our present circumstances a Democratic President can get away with saying in a single breath that opening trade between the US and Asian countries will somehow create net jobs. Really? Three words for ya there: worldwide wage equalization. The good news(?) is that we have a long way to go, but the trend is clear.

Yes - infrastructure spending IS a good idea - but you just KNOW it will be on the WRONG types of infrastructure. We don't need new highways! We need rail and mass transit. Additionally, infrastructure spending unfortunately is a one-off type of deal. It doesn't create sustained jobs; they are essentially well-paying temp jobs.

The 1,600 lb gorilla in the room that no one is talking about in Washington - and I know because I live here - is that infinite economic growth in a finite world is impossible. Every time I hear Obama say something about 'creating growth' I want to put my head in an oven. That's really the big deal. That's the context of everything else going on. Also - the economy needs energy to run and expand. Where the hell is THAT admission?

Listen, the average person's mind is so far away from these issues that it's painful for me to listen to any of it without really getting worked up. I sympathize with the reason why they don't care - they're unemployed and just want a job! They could give a hellsquirt about the macroeconomy or the environment for that matter. As John Michael Greer is fond of saying via paraphrase: 'The American public would sell their own asses if you gave them a job in the rendering factory.'

[Plantagenet]

debt jubilee . ... default....the result is the same, debts are effectiveley cancelled and the economy is reset.

Not really.

In a debt jubilee debts are effectively forgiven. Consider a mortgage. In a debt jubilee the mortgage debt would be forgiven and the debtor would then own the house free and clear.



In a default the debt is not forgiven. If the debtor defaults on his mortgage then he can be evicted and the ownership of the house reverts to the lender.




Those results are clearly not the same.

[gollum]

debt jubilee . ... default....the result is the same, debts are effectiveley cancelled and the economy is reset.

Not really.

In a debt jubilee debts are effectively forgiven. Consider a mortgage. In a debt jubilee the mortgage debt would be forgiven and the debtor would then own the house free and clear.



In a default the debt is not forgiven. If the debtor defaults on his mortgage then he can be evicted and the ownership of the house reverts to the lender.




Those results are clearly not the same.

Love the picture, except in large part people are just walking away from the house anyway.