[mos6507]

Not long ago, the irrepressable Mesuge attempted to portray GM leadership as continuing its policy of Who Killed the Electric Car, in which any dabbling with EVs and plugins was nothing but a publicity stunt, and their main money was in perpetuating gas-guzzlers and making money in ICE maintenance. This included an impassioned apologia for his soulmate, Doug Korthoff who I feel is just as much of a tinfoiler, no doubt fueled by the oft-quoted story about GM tearing up the trolleys to enable happy motoring over half a century ago.

I thought this article pretty much backs up my narrative that the automakers have, to some extent, seen the light:

"Our model shows volatility from now till who knows when," says Roger Clark, senior manager of the Energy Center at General Motors (GM). "Maybe forever." Because the U.S. is no longer the dominant global consumer and there's no longer an excess global supply of oil, Clark says prices will likely remain unstable.

That's the usual "we kind of believe in peak oil, but we won't use the verboten term" statement.

It doesn't mean you have to love GM (I certainly don't) but you have to understand that big corporations are not the personification of evil that we sometimes think they are, always standing for denial and obfuscation. They can and do evolve as the world evolves and leadership changes. Going through bankruptcy and having a series of executive changes will naturally change the corporate culture.

[JohnRM]

I just sometimes wonder who you (general 'you', not the OP) think these people are? They don't just fall out of the sky. They're Americans like you and I. They are us. So any criticism you have of them is criticism of who we all are. We're all responsible for the way things are and for our predicament.

[Loki]

I just sometimes wonder who you (general 'you', not the OP) think these people are? They don't just fall out of the sky. They're Americans like you and I. They are us. So any criticism you have of them is criticism of who we all are. We're all responsible for the way things are and for our predicament.

The corporate elite are not exactly representative of the average American. The average American doesn't jet around in private planes, own multiple vacation homes, or have tax havens scattered around the world.

As for the OP, I wonder how much influence the manager of GM's Energy Center has over corporate policy----it's his job to think about energy, but it doesn't mean his bosses listen to him. Still, it's an interesting data point.

[dolanbaker]

Like any other manufacturer, they are primarily interested in the bottom line, if the vehicles are selling, they'll keep on making them.

If the US public decide (forced by running costs) to choose fuel efficient cars over their heavy consumption vehicles, they'll soon be changing the products they manufacture.

Alternatively, the US government could tax the arse out of the guzzlers and implement changes that way.

[SpringCreekFarm]

They'll have to work a little harder on the usual "planned obselecence" that is built into every car because IIRC, in the movie " Who Killed the Electric Car" that was one of the reasons they "killed" them. The cars needed little or no maintenance. Car companies rake in the $$$$ from aftermarket parts sales. Not that this would be their only motivation but I think it counts.

[dolanbaker]

They'll have to work a little harder on the usual "planned obselecence" that is built into every car because IIRC, in the movie " Who Killed the Electric Car" that was one of the reasons they "killed" them. The cars needed little or no maintenance. Car companies rake in the $$$$ from aftermarket parts sales. Not that this would be their only motivation but I think it counts.

Not really, The engine is only one bunch of parts, you still have all the main "consumerables" like tyres, brake pads, exhaust systems etc. In the 1970s there was a consumer backlash against cars that rusted too quickly, now the bodies last much longer but all the running gear wears out!

[mos6507]

The average American doesn't jet around in private planes, own multiple vacation homes, or have tax havens scattered around the world.

But they ASPIRE to jet around in private planes, own multiple vacation homes, and have tax havens scattered around the world. That is the cultural foundation that spawns the captains of industry. Not all of them were born with silver spoons in their mouth. Sam Walton wasn't.

[SpringCreekFarm]

They'll have to work a little harder on the usual "planned obselecence" that is built into every car because IIRC, in the movie " Who Killed the Electric Car" that was one of the reasons they "killed" them. The cars needed little or no maintenance. Car companies rake in the $$$$ from aftermarket parts sales. Not that this would be their only motivation but I think it counts.

Not really, The engine is only one bunch of parts, you still have all the main "consumerables" like tyres, brake pads, exhaust systems etc. In the 1970s there was a consumer backlash against cars that rusted too quickly, now the bodies last much longer but all the running gear wears out!

I'll have to find that movie to watch again but I'm almost certain that was one of the points someone made in the movie.

Of course consumable parts will always wear out but I am, in fact, talking about driveline related problems. If you are able to put 500K on the driveline or even more, you are not buying new cars as often and that would affect the bottom line of the manufacturer.

[Loki]

The average American doesn't jet around in private planes, own multiple vacation homes, or have tax havens scattered around the world.

But they ASPIRE to jet around in private planes, own multiple vacation homes, and have tax havens scattered around the world. .

Meh, some do, most don't. Most Americans just want a good job, a family, a nice house, a nice car or two. But yeah, I agree conspicuous consumption is too prevalent, if that was your point.

[Ludi]

But yeah, I agree conspicuous consumption is too prevalent, if that was your point.

So far nobody has made it really hip to be poor.

[mos6507]

I'll have to find that movie to watch again but I'm almost certain that was one of the points someone made in the movie.

What that movie overlooked, and something that EV advocates don't like to bring up, is that there is one critical component in EVs that needs to be periodically replaced, which is the battery pack. And that thing is the single most expensive component in the entire vehicle, so much so that if you factor in just one round of battery replacement you've probably spent the equivalent of all the oil changes and tuneups in an ICE between when you drove off the show-room and replaced the pack! This was a real problem around the time WKTEC came out because they were talking about nickel metal hydride and nickel is a borderline precious metal these days, but lithium ain't cheap either.

That's why EESTOR was supposed to be such a big deal. Battery lifespan is the single biggest showstopper with EVs. You don't pay as you go. You pay in one huge lump sum every time the pack dies on you, and you have to factor that in for your _true_ cost per mile.

Even with inexpensive lead acid batteries, battery replacement costs shoot the economy of driving to hell. Great if gas goes to $10 or there are outright shortages, but not that great now.

[mos6507]

Meh, some do, most don't.

Do you have any statistics to back this up? You don't seem to have any trouble making iron-clad generalizations about the congenital pathology of the rich, but you stop short of accepting the idea that maybe everyone in society would love to BE the rich if they had the chance. I don't see how you can deny the fact that most people WOULD love to be rich. Just look at the gambling in Las Vegas or the lottery for an example of everyday salt of the earth people who are chasing that dream through something other than the hard work that (some) rich people invested to get where they are.

I'm not glorifying the rich. I think the Koch brothers and Rupert Murdoch are jerks, but I think this undercurrent of trying to dehumanize them by classifying them as some subspecies of humans is wholly inaccurate. They are us just as much as the middle and low class are us.

[patience]

dolanbaker said:
"If the US public decide (forced by running costs) to choose fuel efficient cars over their heavy consumption vehicles, they'll soon be changing the products they manufacture."

That is true, but it takes a while to start up a new car design from scratch. What they call "all new" is NOT. The Saturn was billed as "all new" from the ground up, but it was now. It was a new "platform" (body/frame), but much of the other parts were from current production. It still took 5 years + to get it going. I worked there at the time.

It is not cheap to start up a new car, either. And carmakers are all hurting for cash. They won't bet on anything unless they can prove sixty ways that it will be profitable.

Put all that together with an uncertain market in a depression, and you get a slow response to new customer demands, lest they be fleeting and go away before a new model can hit the showroom. This means a long lag time between recognizing demand and filling it. This happened in the 1970's after the first oil crisis. It took car companies several years to get small cars tooled up, then the demand went away. That's why the Chevette died. It was a pretty good little car, but nobody wanted them when gas was plentiful again. (AT least it beat the heck out of the Vega!)

Responding to gas efficiency criticism by the head of the DOT, then CEO Pete Estes told him that they had a diesel Chevette on the test track that got 80+ MPG, but that GM COULD NOT SELL THEM. That was in 1978. People are fickle intheir demands.

Another factor about the electric car is that the general public has no comprehension of what they are, how they work, or their limitations. It is gonna be a hard sell. Add in that our grid is outdated and running at or near capacity, and now the future of nuke plants took a body blow with the Japanese mess. Where we gonna get power to charge up electric cars? I think they are a pipe dream, at least insofar as any ideas of "replacing" the gasoline powered car more or less directly.

No, I think we will see a hodge-podge of responses to our energy problems, most of them wrong-headed, and all of them too late to do much good.

[patience]

Well, the idea of a BUSINESS is to make MONEY. Carmakers have loaded up their products with all sorts of bells and whistles to get the price jacked up, and pretty well brainwashed the public into thinking it is a social necessity to have all that. That helps the bottom line. Of course, all those gadgets have a habit of breaking over time, and the car is not so cool anymore. That helps the replacement demand.

Electric cars have to be LIGHT in order to operate as efficiently as possible, which is directly in conflict with designing a "luxury" ride. This all makes the design task very problematic.

Our entire culture will have to change before anything like a really useful, practical, economical electric car can take any market share. After a few of them hit the road, customers will shun them like a plague. They will have poor acceleration, low top speed, lousy range, cost WAY too much, and need a new battery way too soon. I say thumbs down on the whole idea. Car companies are praying on this one, GM especially, since it is pretty much a "Hail Mary" pass for them. Not going anywhere anytime soon, IMHO.

Now, if they chose to bring back that 80 MPG Chevette, I might consider one.

[dolanbaker]

The chevette, was a top seller in many European countries for many years. The cost of petrol is one of the main deciding factors when choosing a car to buy here.

[Loki]

Meh, some do, most don't.

Do you have any statistics to back this up? You don't seem to have any trouble making iron-clad generalizations about the congenital pathology of the rich, but you stop short of accepting the idea that maybe everyone in society would love to BE the rich if they had the chance. I don't see how you can deny the fact that most people WOULD love to be rich. Just look at the gambling in Las Vegas or the lottery for an example of everyday salt of the earth people who are chasing that dream through something other than the hard work that (some) rich people invested to get where they are.

I'm not glorifying the rich. I think the Koch brothers and Rupert Murdoch are jerks, but I think this undercurrent of trying to dehumanize them by classifying them as some subspecies of humans is wholly inaccurate. They are us just as much as the middle and low class are us.

Come on Mos, I'm not the one who says 300 million people all think the same and aspire to the same thing. I think the burden of proof is on you.

And never did I ever classify the ultra-wealthy as "subhuman." They are all too human. But yes, I harshly criticize them for waging relentless class warfare on the rest of us, for perverting government to serve their interests, and for living in such an obnoxiously ostentatious manner with so little regard for the environment.

Back to the OP, I'll believe the big car companies when I see them make major changes in how they do business. Generally speaking I think they are amongst the nastiest of the enviro-raping corporations, so I don't have high hopes. The Volt is perhaps a step in the right direction, though I think an all-out effort to bring the US to European efficiency standards (at least) would make more sense short-term than electric cars.

I am glad, however, that there are some people in the corporate bureaucracy who see the energy problems on the horizon, hopefully they can exercise some influence.

[kiwichick]

betting on electric bikes....made in asia

[kildred590]

They'll have to work a little harder on the usual "planned obselecence" that is built into every car because IIRC, in the movie " Who Killed the Electric Car" that was one of the reasons they "killed" them. The cars needed little or no maintenance. Car companies rake in the $$$$ from aftermarket parts sales. Not that this would be their only motivation but I think it counts.

Electric cars still have an electrical system and a cooling system.
Which is where 99% of car faults occur.

The parts are not made by the car company, they only assemble them.
So they don't "make a killing" from parts at all (except for pressings sold to carsh repair businesses).

The EV1 was sold on a lease because it was experimental. If they had've been sold outright, GM would have had to pay the entire cost of the car back if it failed, rather than just pay out the remaining part of the lease.

[Lore]

40K+ electric vehicles will never be purchased by a society making Wal-Mart wages.

[Loki]

40K+ electric vehicles will never be purchased by a society making Wal-Mart wages.

As someone who makes Wal-Mart wages (on an organic farm ) I can vouch for the veracity of Lore's statement.