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cyberwar?

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cyberwar?

Unread postby Pops » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 00:55:24

Hey peakers, long time no tap,
From the leaking agencies of the US gov today comes this tidbit:
U.S. military hackers have penetrated Russia's electric grid, telecommunications networks and the Kremlin's command systems, making them vulnerable to attack by secret American cyber weapons should the U.S. deem it necessary, according to a senior intelligence official and top-secret documents reviewed by NBC News.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s ... on-n677936

Pretty straight ahead challenge from O right at Pootie via unnamed "senior official." Right on the heels of the ddos hack a couple weeks ago and ongoing election email drama. I've not seen anything quite like this in my lifetime, it ain't nukes but the next thing I'd think. Ramifications are obvious, not for the election, I'm not too worried about that, but infrastructure: grid, net, telecom, etc. Potentially big impact even if low probability.

Anyone else thinking about this?
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby careinke » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 02:26:47

I can see this getting quickly out of hand and inadvertently crashing the current JIT global economic system. Not that it would necessarily be a bad thing AGW wise. It's a nice time of year in the PNW for a crash. Everyone will migrate south for warmth and leave our little community alone. ;)
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 02:28:06

Pops wrote:Hey peakers, long time no tap,
From the leaking agencies of the US gov today comes this tidbit:
U.S. military hackers have penetrated Russia's electric grid, telecommunications networks and the Kremlin's command systems, making them vulnerable to attack by secret American cyber weapons should the U.S. deem it necessary, according to a senior intelligence official and top-secret documents reviewed by NBC News.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s ... on-n677936

Pretty straight ahead challenge from O right at Pootie....

Anyone else thinking about this?


O's threat to have the US military launch cyber attacks against Russia's electric grid, telecommunications networks and the Kremlin's military command systems seems grossly disproportionate to what the Russians may or may not have done by hacking into the DNC and John Podesta's email accounts.

Is Obama really going to start a "cyber war" with Russia because Julian Assange and Wikileaks is publishing John Podesta's emails?

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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 12:26:08

Why would anyone make such an announcement? Right now Russia is, or already has scrubbed their systems for those trigger codes needed to enact such a cyber attack.

There was a thread a year or so ago about Russia reinstituting the use of typewriters and paper documentation for everything sensative because of cyber threats. Presuming the manual physical switches for their grid remain in place they can just unplug the internet and go back to telling people when to set switches instead of relying on computer control systems.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 15:15:11

God to see you back Pops.

This had come to my attention and thanks for surfacing it.

It's very hard for me to see what our administration is up to. Sure sounds like they want to pick a fight.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 17:17:32

pstarr wrote:I am so tired of this globalist sh#t. The Dems and the Repubs drum up war constantly. It's good for THEIR BUSINESS.


Pstarr, you should read Kurt Eichenwald's reporting in Newsweek, the entire article:



That's an extensive investigative report about everything going on.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 18:04:26

Newfie wrote:It's very hard for me to see what our administration is up to. Sure sounds like they want to pick a fight.


Russia is protesting Obama's threats to attack Russian infrastructure and disrupt Russian military command systems using US military cyberwar assets.

russia-protests-washington-engaged-state-cyberterrorism

Russia is demanding that Washington provide an explanation after an NBC report claimed that Pentagon cyber-offensive specialists have hacked into Russia’s power grids, telecommunications networks, and the Kremlin's command systems for possible sabotage and that Obama might soon order an attack on Russia in response to Wikileaks posting John Podesta's emails.

If no official reaction from the American administration follows, it would mean state cyberterrorism exists in the US. If the threats of the attack, which were published by the US media, are carried out, Moscow would be justified in charging Washington,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said, according to the ministry's website.

Ms. Zakharova's statement does't make clear what the Russian's mean by "charging Washington." Presumably it means that if Obama orders the US military to conduct a cyberattack on Russia, the Russians will being charges against Obama and the USA at the UN?

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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 18:52:05

Plantagenet wrote:Ms. Zakharova's statement does't make clear what the Russian's mean by "charging Washington." Presumably it means that if Obama orders the US military to conduct a cyberattack on Russia, the Russians will being charges against Obama and the USA at the UN?


That's actually a good sign, if they want to take it to the UN -- versus them just ignoring the US warning, and doing over the line cyberattacks around (worst possible case our power grid, but what's more likely is just twitter games and disinformation and thank goodness, though that's still a problem).

Power grid or messing with the vote itself (not likely), THOSE are things that nobody wants. The entire POINT of what Obama and the US military is doing, is for DETERRENCE so that we DON'T get big attacks around election day.

My own thinking -- I actually don't think Russia would ever take our power grid down because think about it.. if they did that, then they'd also be crashing global stock markets. And a lot of Russian oligarchs, and Putin himself, has so many billions invested offshore. Therefore just logically, they surely wouldn't want to crash global markets.

I think this will all work out. The Russians aren't madmen, BUT make no mistake -- they are our adversary and they have pushed us on our own soil now and in a very serious way.

The Russians are playing chess. The US can either choose to play, and it can play well, or it can play badly and lose, or it can concede the game and surrender.

And then the Russian Kremlin will just control us and run all over us in our own country, and picking our presidents and manipulating us. And Russian propaganda everywhere, and so many believing Pravda and RT yet they won't ever believe what's in Newsweek or the New York Times.

Is that what you guys really want? I don't. I don't know what you guys believe in, but I believe in Ronald Reagan.

And other than that, I really don't even want to argue about this issue.. Obama is a bit TOO cautious actually. A GOOD thing about that though, is at least nobody can say he RUSHES to trouble and conflict -- he only does things when it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY and finally no choice.

And so, he is just listening to the joint chiefs and national security team and the Pentagon.

I have 100% full trust and faith, in President Obama and the US military leadership, and our reps in congress.

P.S. seriously though, it's a GOOD sign the Russians are talking about taking it to the UN, or other diplomatic response. It's better to talk and argue and talk it out, and the rest of the world can have its input too and honestly I don't believe Putin or the Kremlin are madmen -- they just want advantage, but they don't want to lose everything either.

BUT -- I'm just saying, I happen to believe the "New York Times" and "Newsweek," and the professional media. And, I believe our federal government, on basic things like national security. Even the Republican chairman of the house homeland security committee, agrees about all the hacking issues. And all the other R's do too, and all our US allied governments and their intel agencies, and Mike Pence agrees too (the only one that doesn't agree is Trump, which has all the US allied governments really freaked out).

So I think it'll be okay, cyberwar is a new thing and Russia is figuring out how much it can do to the USA and UK and EUROPE and what the lines are.

The West may have to stand up a bit, or else the Kremlin could actually take us over from within.

Standing up a bit though, and proportional response, and deterrence does not therefore mean WWIII and "nuclear war."

What else can our government do, people? It has to defend the country, do you not agree with that?

"It's a time for choosing," as Reagan said:



Ronald Reagan, "we are Americans:"

https://youtu.be/GiuFzpl28io
Last edited by Sixstrings on Sat 05 Nov 2016, 20:43:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 20:39:16

Sixstrings wrote:seriously though, it's a GOOD sign the Russians are talking about taking it to the UN, or other diplomatic response.


Lets not be naive about this.

If Obama starts a cyberwar against the Russians, chances are the Russian will strike back at the US. But the Russians are too smart to make threats or announce in advance what they will do. Obama was a dummy to make public threats and announce exactly what his Cyberwar targets are. If the Russians strike back at the US they will strike back hard, but meanwhile they'll be at the UN condemning the US for starting a cyberwar and playing the innocent victim.

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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 21:09:46

Plantagenet wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:seriously though, it's a GOOD sign the Russians are talking about taking it to the UN, or other diplomatic response.


Lets not be naive about this.

If Obama starts a cyberwar against the Russians, chances are the Russian will strike back at the US.


From the article that Pops posted, it sounds like our US government hasn't done anything, it's just that they're making it known that they're ready to respond IF -- if, if, if, and only if -- Russia were to do a "significant" and over the line cyberattack around election day, and then the US response would be PROPORTIONAL response.

It's just deterrence, and it's a good sign if Russia will go to the UN or start a diplomatic process.

If Russia doesn't do anything to us, then the USA won't do anything back, it's honestly as simple as that.

And Putin knows all this, folks. It's "escalation management" and the Russians are experts at it, and it's OKAY and how it SHOULD BE that the West is always on defense, because the West is DEMOCRACIES.

But the Russians are too smart to make threats or announce in advance what they will do. Obama was a dummy to make public threats and announce exactly what his Cyberwar targets are.


My best guess is that they want it to be deterrence, and since we are a democracy and open society then the People have a right to know what's going on, and we have a free press too.

But yes, that article was scary -- but if you read it, Obama hasn't DONE ANYTHING, the government is just saying for nobody to mess with the USA and our election. And if they do, there would be proportional response.

If the Russians strike back at the US they will strike back hard, but meanwhile they'll be at the UN condemning the US for starting a cyberwar and playing the innocent victim.


They won't do that. Because, they wouldn't really want to crash global markets (and their ally China doesn't want them to either), and as I already said there are wealthy Russians invested in the West (and Putin himself) and they don't want to lose all their money.

The whole thing is scary, I'm not saying it isn't, but just in my opinion I'm not in favor of out of control cyberattacks in our country either, and meddling in our elections.

I posted the Newsweek article. If nobody wants to read that, and if everybody reads that and just doesn't believe any of it, then I don't know what to say.

I'll link the article again:

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-russia-hillary-clinton-united-states-europe-516895
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Pops » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 21:51:08

Interesting comments everyone. I get that nationalism is the trend in the US... a little surprised it's Russian nationalism, though. I can imagine a couple of reasons why trump might need to kiss up to Pootin, drawing a blank about what the appeal is to J6p in Muncie. I'm still kinda partial to good old 'merica myself and admit to a bit of resentment that our institutions are being attacked (both from within and without in fact)

But, hey, I've long ago given up trying to understand partisan opinion, it's like trying to rope a fart.

Really, the reason I came by was to ask if anyone had considered taking any action/precautions after the attack on the managed DNS system last month and especially the blunt warning of retaliation if anything more damaging occurs.

The answer seems, no, it's just me.

I did some little stuff:
keeping the fuel tanks topped, *
checked the water barrels for that good public pool chlorine flavor
checked the batteries
arranged the chargers/cords/etc, *
made sure all the lights, AAs, etc were handy
upped the FRN stash,
bought a few bags 'o beans,
checked the medicine cabinet and bought a few things (some specific, some general)

We aren't quite as stocked up as we once were, and we're still kind of footloose generally so I just bought a few things extra. I'm not in a place to go the full caveman right now but a few precautionary purchases seem in order.

* this guy has some down and dirty ideas for building a little emergency power setup using your car alternator and a few walmart items: http://www.battery1234.com/

--
Newfie wrote:God to see you back Pops.

Hey Newf! God to see you too!
Likely just passing through, I'm too obsessive and besides, the hobby horserace seems to be proceeding apace even in my absence. I can pick up right where I left off should the man come around.

BTW, thanks for giving the guys in the back room a hand, bunch of slackers that they are!
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby careinke » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 22:00:36

On the more practical side, have you filled up your gas tanks?
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 05 Nov 2016, 22:55:20

Ya know Pops,know that we are full time Boaties we are always prepped. It's just how we live.

Not that stuff doesn't happen. Today, for example, we were heading off shore to run from Cape Fear to Charleston. Nice overnight sail planned. But else needed to motor for a bit, and the dang thing over heated. So we had to get towed back in. 6 miles.

So much for my great ideal self auffiency!
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 06 Nov 2016, 02:04:09

EDIT: I posted another article, but I don't really need to do that, everyone is capable of reading the news on their own.

About preps.. if SHTF.. then PRAY. Worst case, have power outage preps (per the NBC reporting that's worst case but NOT at all likely).

Filling up on gas is a good idea, and food preps. And a battery powered radio, things along those lines.

BUT ANYHOW, my hunch is everything is going to be okay (nobody should be freaking out and stocking up, there's nothing in the news to indicate worry to that extent).

Lastly, I would just note that one has to think about this from the Moscow perspective, too -- do they REALLY want to shut down our power grid or do something outrageous to us? And then have the proportional consequences of that? Most likely no, they do not.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 09:27:41

Lucky us, putin decided we could collapse our own country without all that fussy programing

on the bright side, I'm getting ads for russian brides in my sidebar here
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Cog » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 09:53:00

Trump will collapse the country and only Hillary could save us? And you accuse the right of being delusional. LOL. This is a great day in America. Revel in our time.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 15:06:18

Sixstrings wrote:EDIT: I posted another article, but I don't really need to do that, everyone is capable of reading the news on their own.

About preps.. if SHTF.. then PRAY. Worst case, have power outage preps (per the NBC reporting that's worst case but NOT at all likely).

Filling up on gas is a good idea, and food preps. And a battery powered radio, things along those lines.

BUT ANYHOW, my hunch is everything is going to be okay (nobody should be freaking out and stocking up, there's nothing in the news to indicate worry to that extent).

On the contrary, despite all the liberal panic last night, the Dow is up over 200 and the S&P is up nearly 1%. That seems to indicate pretty much the opposite of panic, given where we were last night.

Not that doomers want to discuss recent market performance unless it's down a lot. Or they "know" it will be down massively real soon now.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Cog » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 15:30:30

Trump is threatening to spend billions on crumbling infrastructure and rebuild the inner cities. Exactly what Hillary was threatening to do. But somehow its bad when Trump says it.

Hypocrisy much?
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Re: cyberwar?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 16:30:52

Julian Assange and Wikileaks were heroes and whistleblowers when they were leaking documents in the 2000s but now they are evil Russian Pawns? I don't think so---they are still whistleblowers exposing the dark corners of official hypocrisy and wrongdoing in my book.

I don't see how these leaks are any different then past leaks. Whistleblowing ALWAYS involves leaking private or government documents that the miscreants want kept secret.

Assange says Russia isn't the leaker anyway. According to Assange the DNC stuff came from a young IT tech at the DNC, who was mysteriously murdered right after the DNC leaks were made public.
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