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Squanderland vs Thriftville

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Squanderland vs Thriftville

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 01:42:59

This is from a blog of mine that I didn't post here yet. Thought it might stimulate some discussion. Edited for current events.

Squanderland vs Thriftville

In the post-peak world, I see too distinct camps of thought: Those who want to consume as before, and those who wish to find stability. The first group will be the capitalist/economist type, forever-looking for new ways to exploit the environment based upon the economic mindset of supply/demand. They are always quick to adopt solutions that are brilliantly successful and perhaps understandable in the short run, but that fail or else create fatal problems in the long run, i.e., the current plethora of ills.

The second group will consist of those who realized that it was the mindset of the first group who got them to post-peak, although they had little choice as to whether or not to participate, and most did not know it was a path that led down a dark one-way alley.

You can solve most problems with enough money, energy, raw materials, and time, but you cannot solve an energy crisis by using more energy, more materials, and less time. This is what the cornucopians believe.

Energy is a unique commodity. It takes energy to do anything. And since you can’t create it, or destroy it, you had better make good use of it when you transform it from one form to another, as you are going to lose some of it in the process.

If we can have $60 a barrel of oil on the speculation of a shortage, imagine then what the price of a barrel might be when we do have real shortages. 8O Since we have done little to nil to prepare for the coming oil shocks, we are completely reliant on increasing our supply of oil to power all of our transport needs, our food production, our manufacturing of goods and 40% of our total energy needs.

I keep coming back to a question that appears to be tugging at more minds, and with more urgency, every day: What if the die has already been cast? Suppose for a moment that we have passed the point of no return, and that some form of collapse is now already in the cards. Nothing new, you say. But I look at this in a way few have considered: As the reality of oil depletion goes mainstream, the direct use of available oil resources for energy consumption may well take precedence over their indirect use to produce another form of energy, whether it be wind or nano-technology, especially if the ROI is a distant reality. And, of course, a fascist government could ration what we can have, so they have enough to wage war to get more.

Or this: The Islamic fundamentalists are becoming savvy to the notion that if you want to hit America or the West, you go after the oil, which, of course, is right in their backyard. The market today cannot sustain any loss of production or supply. Some have likened this new terrorism to a “shadow OPEC.” The control of oil doesn't rest in the hands of the OPEC or the free market, but in the hands of the guerrillas who can stop the flow—and knock the needle out of the junkie’s hands.

Anybody ever seen a junkie in need of a fix?

Authors note: My title was inspired by an article by Warren Buffet, entitled, The Mercantilist’s Tale. Well worth googling.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Wed 13 Jul 2005, 01:51:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 01:47:06

Hitting 'em in the oil can is how the Nazis and the Japanese were beat in WWII, and depriving the enemy of resources is as old as warefare itself.

I like that idea, the terrorists at a shadow OPEC, since they may have at least as much say in oil prices as the more respectable terrorists manning the pumps over there.

I got rid of my car, something about 1% of Americans are willing to do, it will take knocking the needle out of the junkie's hands indeed.
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Unread postby dissimulo » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 03:22:50

Indeed, I am shocked every time terrorists hit something other than an oil production facility. It has convinced me that they are not the evil geniuses that some would have us believe. Just a few well placed, well timed attacks might be able to completely unravel the weak US economy. We can weather a very large number of attacks on civilians, in comparison.

I have little doubt that energy resources will be used to maintain the status quo, rather than truly prepare for a low energy age. We are expecting people (largely ignorant people) to give up an entire way of life. This many generations into the industrial age, most people cannot comprehend a path backward.
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 03:31:25

Good point!!

Pardon my French but what the [expletive] is blowing up trains and subways supposed to do? All that will do is harden the resolve against the terrorists.

Hitting pipeline and oil facilities will actually hurt more people and it will bring about understanding: That it is not our oil under their sand, it's their oil under their sand, and they can sell it or not how they choose, and we're a bunch of sniveling junkies if we allow ourselves to be dependent on it.

(edited for profanity- KiddieKorral)
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Unread postby pilferage » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 03:39:01

Well, given how much energy we can get from fission, I don't think energy itself will be a problem. However, I do think that we'll see quite a bit of shit hit the fan simply because this is an opportunity for quite a few entities to consolidate power.

Sure, almost everyone can buy a bicycle (the average automobile speed in the US is 32mph, about twice that of your average bicyclist, and maybe 5mph more than a velomobilist), learn how to garden (I'd wager that the grey water we pump back into the sewer/septic is enough to grow half of our own food... provided we got off our asses), and stop buying useless shit(self explanitory). But why would the government/industrial complexes want that? If anything they'll try to extend their influence in some areas and maintain the status quo in others during a transition like this.

In terms of percentage wealth I'd wager that we're poorer compared to the 'wealthy elite' than peasants were compared to their kings and emperors...
It's all about power and it always has been.
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Unread postby Jack » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 04:26:50

I'm in the die already cast camp. In fact, the die had already been cast in 1980, and perhaps before - as the green revolution increased the numbers of humans, it created the certainty that the problem would occur.

Conservation might have delayed it; but as the numbers went above sustainability, the entire world become hostage to its energy addiction. As Catton points out in "Overshoot", we are detrivores; and the available debris we consume (oil) is in limited supply.

As for direct consumption receiving emphasis - absolutely. Only a very few countries can keep their people starving and freezing in the dark without a rebellion - North Korea seems to be one case in point. The rest subscribe to the Roman dictum, "Vox populi, vox Dei."

We are in for some interesting times.
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Unread postby Roy » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 09:27:29

Die already cast? Check.

Want proof? Notice the reaction of the party in power, and their supporters (supposedly a majorithy of Americans if you believe the last election was legitimate. The whole exit poll thing really raises questions in my mind but that's another thread) when any mention or suggestion is made to reduce the use of fossil fuels.

They view it as a liberal conspiracy to destroy the American way of life. Well no shit. Just where is that way of life leading the American people and the human race? Its clear to us here that its nowhere good.

They'll tell you that global warming is junk science and use Michael Crichton's latest novel as the undeniable proof. Uhhh. I like Crichton's past work, including Sphere, Eaters of the Dead, and the Jurassic Park series.

However, when a college educated, moderately wealthy, "successful" individual touts a FICTION book as a valid debunking of global warming I get really discouraged. Crichton is a good writer and no doubt an intelligent man, but when did he become an expert in climatology?

Answer: he didn't. I'm thinking he's more like an Armstrong Williams than anything else.

Yep, die already cast. Hold on to your hats folks, this is gonna be a rough ride! Denial and blame gaming will go on until the bitter end.
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Unread postby CARVER » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 10:33:34

dissimulo wrote:Indeed, I am shocked every time terrorists hit something other than an oil production facility. It has convinced me that they are not the evil geniuses that some would have us believe. Just a few well placed, well timed attacks might be able to completely unravel the weak US economy. We can weather a very large number of attacks on civilians, in comparison.


I'm afraid they are waiting for the 'right' time to do it. If they do it now it would only result in a rise in oil price. At the moment, I believe there is no shortage at the pump. (It might even trigger us to start acting sooner to try to reduce the impact of the coming decline in oil production).

However when the moment comes when people are really getting a difficult time to get the gas (oil), due to a shortage and not because they can't afford it, at that time an attack on oil production facilities could do a lot more damage. So I think they are waiting to let the 'bombs' go off at the same time, to produce a bigger blow than when they would go off one after another.

I don't think it's wise to underestimate them. It's like they have the detonator of a bomb in a plane. They can detonate while the plane is still on the ground, or wait till it is at its most vulnerable: high up in the air. (Or a train/bus in rush hour). It's all about timing.
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Unread postby TheTurtle » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 10:51:59

You continue to be a breath of fresh air, MonteQuest. Lately the forum seems overun with cornucopians ... almost to the point of being unreadable. Your post reminds me why I first started coming here.

Thanks. :)
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Unread postby Cyrus » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 11:13:55

You continue to be a breath of fresh air, MonteQuest. Lately the forum seems overun with cornucopians ... almost to the point of being unreadable. Your post reminds me why I first started coming here.

Thanks.


Thats what I said. Although it is fun to watch the cornucopians play, isn't it? :lol:
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Unread postby TheTurtle » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 11:46:13

Cyrus wrote:
You continue to be a breath of fresh air, MonteQuest. Lately the forum seems overun with cornucopians ... almost to the point of being unreadable. Your post reminds me why I first started coming here.

Thanks.


Thats what I said. Although it is fun to watch the cornucopians play, isn't it? :lol:


No, not anymore. Lately they just make me feel very tired. And they make me feel even more pessimistic about the future.
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Unread postby AirlinePilot » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:00:06

I believe it was last night on coast to coast, Goerge had a terrorist expert on and I only caught the tail end of the program. They were discussing the use of nukes. Basically he agreed that it was not a question of If but when. Personally I believe they could be holding this one in the wings for the reason mentioned above. One even carelessly placed nuke in Saudi Arabia would probably bring the world to it's knees. Even if it isn't nuclear, the right weapons at the right times could bring a terrible cascade of events on the globe if oil producing infrastructure is targeted.

I'm still not sure why they haven't tried it, I don't think they are geniuses, but they are intelligent. They may not be quite aware of Peak Oil yet either. Once PO goes really mainstream (I mean REALLY) then it will be time to worry about terrorist acts against oil and refinery infrastructure.
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Unread postby Leanan » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:20:25

And, of course, a fascist government could ration what we can have, so they have enough to wage war to get more.


A fascist government? Fascism really isn't needed. A democratic government is perfectly capable of doing that.
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 06:44:12

Maybe the reason the terrorists haven't attacked oil production is because they know that would bring the world to its knees and, in fact, they actually quite like the way they world is. They are hypocrites as far as I can tell. They rage against the west etc., and yet they all LIVE in the west, enjoying cheap goods and energy and mcdonalds etc. Its very funny really.

The terrorists probably don’t want to blow up the oil wells because when it comes down to it, they want things to continue as they are.

If things were all sorted out tomorrow – i.e. Palestine, middle east in general, America stopped the war on terror, etc. etc. etc., the terrorists would be totally pissed off. They ENJOY things the way they are because they like moaning about them. Some people are just born moaning bastards.

I refuse to believe it is difficult to bomb Saudi oil infrastructure. Bombing a few pipes in the middle of a desert… how can that be hard?
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Unread postby Ludi » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 08:51:04

linlithgowoil wrote:
If things were all sorted out tomorrow – i.e. Palestine, middle east in general, America stopped the war on terror, etc. etc. etc., the terrorists would be totally pissed off. They ENJOY things the way they are because they like moaning about them. Some people are just born moaning bastards.


I don't think that's an accurate characterization. I think it's clear they don't like having their land occupied by foreign interests. They aren't against "our" way of life, they are against foreigners occupying their lands.
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Unread postby Leanan » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:39:46

I don't think that's an accurate characterization. I think it's clear they don't like having their land occupied by foreign interests. They aren't against "our" way of life, they are against foreigners occupying their lands.


I agree. There was a terrorism expert on CNN a couple of week ago. He said it's incorrect to put the blame on Arabs, Muslims, young males, or anything like that. He pointed to the Tamil Tigers as examples. Their suicide bombings put Arabs to shame, they are a secular group, and they often use women as bombers.

The problem, he said, is foreign occupation (however you want to define "foreign"). There had never been a single case of an Iraqi suicide bomber...until we invaded. Now, it's quite common. Iran is a Islamic state, where the people are as oppressed as any. But there are no Iranian suicide bombers. He predicts that if we invade Iran, there will be.
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Unread postby Merlin » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:51:26

[quote="I_Like_Plants"]
Pardon my French but what the fuck is blowing up trains and subways supposed to do? All that will do is harden the resolve against the terrorists.
quote]

I've been troubled by the fact that the attacks in Spain and the UK do not make sense. Just when things are going well in Iraq for the insurgents (US forces get bloodied on a daily basis and the Brits make secret plans to withdraw), so-called terrorists attack the West at home!

I understand terrorist attacks in Iraq -- they want us to leave. But I_like_Plants is right. Attacks in London only stiffen our resolve to stay.

So, maybe the real terrorists are not who we think/authorities say they are.
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Unread postby holmes » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:20:51

100% agreement. The culture of death has been cast.

this is where much of our natural resources are going. If you think there is a way out of this death march u need a shrink.

http://esd.lbl.gov/ECO/smart_store/problems.html
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2003/cell ... sue-19.htm
http://people.howstuffworks.com/landfill.htm

want more links of death culture? :-D
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Unread postby holmes » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:25:54

Merlin wrote:
I_Like_Plants wrote:Pardon my French but what the fuck is blowing up trains and subways supposed to do? All that will do is harden the resolve against the terrorists.
quote]

I've been troubled by the fact that the attacks in Spain and the UK do not make sense. Just when things are going well in Iraq for the insurgents (US forces get bloodied on a daily basis and the Brits make secret plans to withdraw), so-called terrorists attack the West at home!

I understand terrorist attacks in Iraq -- they want us to leave. But I_like_Plants is right. Attacks in London only stiffen our resolve to stay.

So, maybe the real terrorists are not who we think/authorities say they are.


hey Merlin I like your energy, man. But What will this resolve do? It will cause us to excellerate the exponential growth and war machines and squander and use up our resources quicker. It is working. we willll be bancrupt and broke soon enough. It works on empires all the time. ahhh history repeating itself and we are too junked up and crazed and bloated to even do a thing about ti. LOL. What a bunch of maroons are we. except this time there is no new continent to feed the masses.
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Unread postby Leanan » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:47:03

Much as I hate to admit it...terrorism works. Not quickly, but terrorists don't expect overnight results. They think in terms of years. Decades, even.

Suicide bombing was invented in Lebanon, I believe. While it was being occupied by U.S. and Israeli forces. A truck bomb attack on our embassy wiped out the entire Middle East department of the CIA. 240 Marines were killed in a suicide truck bombing of their barracks. We pulled out a few months later.

Israel stayed. For 18 years, they stayed in Lebanon. It became their Vietnam. Finally, they gave up and pulled out. Now Hezbollah shoots missiles into Israel from Lebanon.

If anyone is tough on terrorism, it's Israel. They are paranoid about national security (for good reason.) They have a draft, of both men and women, so have plenty of manpower. Lebanon is right next door, certainly a more serious threat to them than Iraq is to the U.S. or Europe. But they gave up.

I think the same thing will happen in Iraq. It may take months, it may takes years, it may take decades, but eventually, we will be driven out. The bottom line is we have somewhere else to go, and they don't.
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