[GHung]

As someone who has spent the last couple of decades seeking and adopting strategies to decouple from complex systems and industrial-age ways of doing things, for many reasons, I grew used to 'normal' people belittling my efforts as being idiotic, anti-social, fruitless, narcissistic, etc. I've been accused of not being a "team player" and a non-contributor to the greater good by seeking my own path; stuff like that. This hasn't been a frequent thing since some folks still applaud individualism, and most others don't care.

Those of us on peakoil.com who insist that society is in a downward spiral (decline, contraction, collapse) are often labeled as "doomers" and attacked for our (generally well supported) views. This seems to be spiking lately, and I'm curious as to why.

It's become clear to me that many folks fear the doomers; their messages, and their tendency to opt out of mainstream ways of thinking and of doing things. It has even been asserted recently that high-profile "doomers" are responsible for causing suicides of folks who may read some of these blogs. Fact is, some are threatened by messages of "doom", the same way religious fundamentalists are threatened by those who ignore or reject their own particular brand of 'truth'. Of course, the "anti-doomers" could simply ignore us. My wife doesn't like scary movies, so she doesn't watch scary movies. She certainly doesn't hang out at scary movie blogs and tell folks what idiots they are for watching scary movies, or demand that scary movies be banned. She just changes the channel, in the same way that the anti-doomers could easily move to another thread or blog.

Of course, there are those who have skin in the BAU game and want to stifle any suggestions that we should, and can, seek alternatives. They especially want to invalidate those alternatives as being viable, on any scale, even as a transition. Some are obviously being paid to "seek out and destroy" any way of thinking that opposes or doesn't support their own agenda; disseminating misinformation, personal attacks on individuals, trying to invalidate sources, or simply repeating the same lies until they stick in the minds of the masses.

Others are clearly scared shitless by the idea that their lives are going to change in unknown and unpleasant/challenging ways (cognitive dissonance, and all that). The slate must be wiped clean of any suggestion that everything they've invested their lives in has helped create the mess humanity finds itself in, or that a mess even exists at all; "All's well, so STF up!"

Question to the "anti-doomers": Why even bother? If we [broad range of folks being labeled "doomers", "preppers", etc.] are so wrong about our conclusions, why do you consider us a threat? Why is it important enough to take the time to explain why our strategies won't work? I'm sure some of you have good reasons....

... and, keeping a sense of humour here; a video shared by Nony some time back is one of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWC6W1ctkMY

Note: I considered including certain examples of comments (on both sides of the issue) but wanted to avoid pointing fingers and singling out individuals .

[onlooker]

Well it really is quite straight forward. The message of doom has and will always be frowned upon. Most people do not wish to dwell on unpleasant truths or future doom. It is the defense mechanism born out of fear and anxiety. As for why do anti-doomers frequent sites like this which are inherently doom oriented? Well, part is ulterior motives, part curiosity and part a desire to "prove" to themselves more then to us that no big "doom" is coming our collective way. I applaud you G, for being your own person and resisting the easy path of being part of the group. I can cite the example of Athens which did not wish to accept or admit that Persia had intention to invade them. This event is well chronicled and demonstrates how even though it is always good to be prepared people are reluctant to admit doom is coming their way.

[Hawkcreek]

And I assure you that the term "prepping" will turn to "hoarding", if things start to look more serious.
Have to make it seem ok to steal your stuff.

[efarmer]

The comforting illusion that the way things are and have been for a long period relative to human lifespans forms a perceived baseline that is mentally necessary for many folks to simply accept and then to aspire to achieve something in their life that they consider to be a positive delta from such a starting point. The notion that this baseline is unsustainable implies that people's aspirations and dreams based upon it are therefore unattainable. This pisses off the casual observer and inspires him to fight any real or perceived messenger to the contrary of one's accepted default BAU baseline, and also his hopes and dreams built as an appendage on the BAU heap they fondly view as "the basic deal".

I.E. "Poke at my comforting illusions and beliefs and I will poke at your tender bits until you stop."

The other salient points I have with Doomers is on Facebook. I post that I went to Taco Bell for Lunch on my way to the ballgame. A proper response would be, "what did you order and did you get guac?" as well as , "where did you sit?". In other words, did you get the high end menu items and was your seat a premium priced spot near the field? The smart ass responds that "I ordered Mexican junk food and I sat on my ass like everyone else." But not the Doomer, he says "I mixed up a freeze dried entre' that was going out of date from my survival stocks and listened to the ball game on my Bag Out Bag radio to insure it was functional and check the battery state."

This of course would piss off the Good Humor Man and make him crash his ice cream truck in a fit of road rage, and it of course tears us mere mortals a new one.

[KaiserJeep]

I'm a Doomer, too. I believe that we are in line for real problems when the oil is too dear to use as fuel. We are talking serious escalations in the cost of everything, especially energy. Our corporate food system gets bent into a hybrid of corporate food and locally sourced food. We have to abandon private powered vehicles larger than bikes or golf carts. Everything costs more, most Americans will have no disposable income to speak of, fewer tech toys, less food and water, fewer pets. You know what you spend today, your present income will buy about 20-30% of what you can purchase now.

Because I don't believe in AGW, and because of the deepening and widening worldwide Depression, the change from where we are now unto what we are post-oil, will be gradual over 2-3 decades. Barring resource wars, that is.

Because I do not subscribe to the AGW theory, I am not fearful of extreme weather events (which have been happening all my life), or El-Nino, or the natural warming that is occurring as we withdraw from the Pleistocene Glacial and approach the next Climatic Optimum. Those that do subscribe to AGW, can run in circles scretching "The Globe is Warming! The Globe is Warming!"

We are pretty much Doomed, in 1-2 centuries the sick and broken ecology will stutter to a halt. Best be looking hard for a new home, and move there before the environment has declined to where large animals go extinct.

[Outcast_Searcher]

We are pretty much Doomed, in 1-2 centuries the sick and broken ecology will stutter to a halt. Best be looking hard for a new home, and move there before the environment has declined to where large animals go extinct.

If the timeframe were given as 1-2 centuries by the strident doomer community, they wouldn't get much resistance from many except the super-cornies. Given the data I see, this timeframe seems about right to me, based on BAU growth and AGW and pollution and an unwillingness to address this if it costs anything.

Where I have the objection is that virtually EVERY year it's "we're doomed any time now". Every financial issue (like the current market correction) is financial armageddon. The MSM is called liars if the short term news conflicts with a short term doom scenario.

It's not the doom scenario, it's the ridiculous stream of assertions that we're doomed next month or next year. I think the in-your-face style short term data-denying doomers hurt the credibility of the much more thoughtful longer term doomers.

[Outcast_Searcher]

And I assure you that the term "prepping" will turn to "hoarding", if things start to look more serious.
Have to make it seem ok to steal your stuff.

So property rights should be strictly respected in a time of crisis. But in normal times, confiscating all the earnings of the most productive people the takers can manage politically is just fine, as long as its called "taxes" and as long as the takers screech it's for a "good cause".

Funny how that works.

[Hawkcreek]

And I assure you that the term "prepping" will turn to "hoarding", if things start to look more serious.
Have to make it seem ok to steal your stuff.

So property rights should be strictly respected in a time of crisis. But in normal times, confiscating all the earnings of the most productive people the takers can manage politically is just fine, as long as its called "taxes" and as long as the takers screech it's for a "good cause".

Funny how that works.

Once again, saying I said stuff that I didn't -- but, since you started it........
My biggest complaint about our "government" is the fact that they take everything they can from the most productive people - the working class, and give it to the unproductive people - the useless takers at the top of the pile.
If we actually had a capitalistic system, I would say it needs to die. But since we don't, I will just say that our system needs to change. If we can't even the playing field, I think the playing field needs to be blown up.
And anyone is welcome to try to steal my stuff at the end of the world. That would be something I could fight much easier than the death of a thousand cuts inflicted by the elite in today's world.
You sound like you have way too much property and are REALLY worried about your ability to protect it.

[GHung]

Outcast_Searcher wrote:

It's not the doom scenario, it's the ridiculous stream of assertions that we're doomed next month or next year.

The other side of that coin is insisting that we have plenty of time, so there's no point in acting now. Since we're not sure exactly how things will evolve over the next 100-200 years, any response is likely to be the wrong one. No sense in rocking the boat, eh? They'll figure something out when the time comes (they being our childrens' children). They always have. "They" aren't likely to be too happy about that, but who cares? We don't owe a damn thing to those who aren't even born yet. Such has it always been. Stay the course.

Discounting the future... Is that a purely human trait? Doesn't seem like such a good survival strategy, as a specie. IMO, that's exactly why humanity has an early expiration date relative to most other species.

[Outcast_Searcher]

And I assure you that the term "prepping" will turn to "hoarding", if things start to look more serious.
Have to make it seem ok to steal your stuff.

So property rights should be strictly respected in a time of crisis. But in normal times, confiscating all the earnings of the most productive people the takers can manage politically is just fine, as long as its called "taxes" and as long as the takers screech it's for a "good cause".

Funny how that works.

Once again, saying I said stuff that I didn't -- but, since you started it........
My biggest complaint about our "government" is the fact that they take everything they can from the most productive people - the working class, and give it to the unproductive people - the useless takers at the top of the pile.
If we actually had a capitalistic system, I would say it needs to die. But since we don't, I will just say that our system needs to change. If we can't even the playing field, I think the playing field needs to be blown up.
And anyone is welcome to try to steal my stuff at the end of the world. That would be something I could fight much easier than the death of a thousand cuts inflicted by the elite in today's world.
You sound like you have way too much property and are REALLY worried about your ability to protect it.

1). You were the one who started whining about stealing stuff.

2). Yeah, sounds like your ilk EXACTLY. Saying someone else "has too much property" who has earned it by a lifetime of hard work, frugality, and saving (while paying a HELL of a lot of taxes).

3). So if you're going to "welcome" the hordes to steal your stuff at the end of the world, why did you post the initial complaint?

If you can't win by playing by the rules, complain that force must be brought into play. The favorite line of the thug. Yeah, go ahead and "blow everyone up" that you don't like. And then claim you're virtuous. You should be so proud.

[GHung]

Yeah, O_S, as we all know, stuff is more important than people, especially stuff earned through hard work.

Dont' take my stuff!

[Hawkcreek]

Yep, just like my daddy used to tell me - "You caint win, wrasslin with pigs"

[Ibon]

... and, keeping a sense of humour here; a video shared by Nony some time back is one of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWC6W1ctkMY

.

That video was posted in 2011, 4 years ago and only has 600+ views..... How many are we really?

[Outcast_Searcher]

Yep, just like my daddy used to tell me - "You caint win, wrasslin with pigs"

I won't stoop to a name calling contest. If you can't make a valid argument, enough said.

[Hawkcreek]

Yep, just like my daddy used to tell me - "You caint win, wrasslin with pigs"

I won't stoop to a name calling contest. If you can't make a valid argument, enough said.

Ok, I will finish the statement - "You just get muddy, and the pigs enjoy it way more than you do", since you didn't seem to know the meaning behind that old saw. I am sorry you took it as me calling you a pig.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Yep, just like my daddy used to tell me - "You caint win, wrasslin with pigs"

I won't stoop to a name calling contest. If you can't make a valid argument, enough said.

Ok, I will finish the statement - "You just get muddy, and the pigs enjoy it way more than you do", since you didn't seem to know the meaning behind that old saw. I am sorry you took it as me calling you a pig.

Ah. My bad. I had forgotten the punch line on that one. Apology accepted -- and I'm sorry I assumed you were calling me a pig. Sadly, on this site, things too often quickly degenerate into fighting (based on me reading threads which seem to have segments of angry fights between posters) with dismaying frequency.

I'm sure we are each honestly trying to make a point, even if our life experiences end up with us reaching different conclusions.

[Hawkcreek]

Yep, just like my daddy used to tell me - "You caint win, wrasslin with pigs"

I won't stoop to a name calling contest. If you can't make a valid argument, enough said.

Ok, I will finish the statement - "You just get muddy, and the pigs enjoy it way more than you do", since you didn't seem to know the meaning behind that old saw. I am sorry you took it as me calling you a pig.

Ah. My bad. I had forgotten the punch line on that one. Apology accepted -- and I'm sorry I assumed you were calling me a pig. Sadly, on this site, things too often quickly degenerate into fighting (based on me reading threads which seem to have segments of angry fights between posters) with dismaying frequency.

I'm sure we are each honestly trying to make a point, even if our life experiences end up with us reaching different conclusions.

Yes, I agree. One of the things that have made me visit this site for so many years is that most of the people here enjoy a good argument. It is kind of a shame that we may get overly invested in some of them.
Coming from an engineering background, I do tend to think that there is only one optimum solution for most problems, (and I consider mine to be the optimum Prime) ,but I can still recognize that some of the sub-optimum solutions may be the ones to go with because of budget or schedule constraints. This is often not acceptable to many folks.
It will all shake out in the end.

[PeterEV]

We've been told so many things in our lives that are not true. Such as with Santa Claus and Chimneys when there aren't any chimneys around. I can tell you I have a lot of dead relatives in Africa. People with a 419 area code told me so over the internet. We also have our cherished beliefs especially when we are given opinions, that conform to our way of thinking, that just "ain't so". Then we find out it just ain't so (e.g., Rock Hudson as a real life romantic lead). We get a jaundice view of things.

I grew up in a place where the ice was 2 miles thick several thousand years ago. Now, I'm told that I need to head way north if I want to survive while 40 years ago I was told I need to head south cause the next ice age was beginning. And you wonder why a lot of us have a hard time believing anything especially if it makes us uncomfortable.

In the end, if we do what strengthens us individually, the whole will work out. We work day to day building ourselves up; making sure we don't ruin where we live. That's not often easy, convenient, or in the best interest of others.

[SeaGypsy]

We have this discussion perennially here. Not much changes. We are all subject to some version of Kubler-Ross' stages of grief. A bunch of us here have been at acceptance for a number of years, some of the founding members since the beginning. We see the cycles, posters who come & go. The effort of resistance tires out those persistently denying the factually frightening topics we talk about here every day.

There are always going to be specific areas of contention, but broadly speaking, the OP's answer is that it is about an emotional maturity, more than an intellectual understanding. We are discussing the eventual inevitable collapse of the world as we know it. Timelines, causes, mitigations, specifics, all up for discussion, under the primary subtext. To be comfortable here requires being comfortable discussing the scariest thoughts in our sphere as human beings. Not really any surprise this rocks some people's boats.

[efarmer]

Some of us are piss ants with unattainable and unrealistic dreams and some of us are dialed in to the true trend of the future and are therefore visionaries and savants. I am totally sure of which camp I wish to belong to but unsure of which group I am actually in . Is there a middle ground, might I be a visionary piss ant? The formic acid boils in my mandible at the very thought of such lofty aspirations.

When I was younger, I would have gratefully settled for just being "a cool person", but now the gift of
experience has shown me that most "cool persons" are indeed piss ants at their very core and unable to burrow deep enough to survive normal temperature variations. This causes mental anguish and drives the need for a diversion.

Could we just put this baffling dichotomy off for a respite, and roast us a Doomer, just like the good old days?