[Kristen]

This banter with Russia comes at an interesting time. China's economy died and was resurrected, Mrs. Clinton's email scandal, the trade pact rushed through congress, etc, etc.

Is it unpatriotic to stop viewing your country as the protagonist in a lengthy narrative?

[SeaGypsy]

Who are these Russian fighters posting pics of themselves in Syria?



http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34188569

Exclusive: Russian troops join combat in Syria - sources


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/exclusive---russian-troops-join-combat-in-syria--sources/41651212

U.S. finds more signs of Russia setting up Syria base
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-marines-syria-airfield-latakia-us-officials/

The US just called out Putin over ISIS as Russian soldiers join the fight in Syria

Putin has said that Russia wants to "create some kind of an international coalition to fight terrorism and extremism."

The US State Department isn't buying it.

"Russia is not a member of the coalition against ISIL, and what we’ve said is that their continued support to the Assad regime has actually fostered the growth of ISIL inside Syria and made the situation worse,” State Department spokesman John Kirby said on Wednesday

“If they want to be helpful against ISIL, the way to do it is to stop arming and assisting and supporting Bashar al-Assad.”


http://www.businessinsider.com/us-russia-and-troops-in-syria-2015-9

BREMMER: Putin is serious about entering Syria — and not to go after ISIS

Western actions that bolster rebel forces in the north — where they are fighting the regime in Syria's largest city, Aleppo, and ISIS in the countryside — and weaken Assad further could contribute to a settlement to end the war. This is where Putin becomes worried.

"If the West succeeds in turning the tide of the war while Assad is vulnerable, the political outcomes in Syria are more likely to be dictated by the US," Bremmer said. "Which means Putin needs to bolster Assad now."

And Russia seems to be doing just that: Russian military experts in Syria are inspecting and enlarging air bases. Others are setting up housing units for up to 1,000 personnel. Advisers are meeting with Iranian and Syrian counterparts in the capital. Russian drones and fighter planes are surveilling non-ISIS rebels in the country's north. And Russian armored personnel carriers with Russian-speaking troops are involved in fighting.
http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-syria-russia-assad-obama-2015-9

That article makes it sound like Russia isn't fighting ISIS, but rather the moderate rebels in the north.

Do you believe this bullshit 6? Utter doublespeak lies, all of it.
The US led effort against IS has been farcical. The Al Nusra front et al are useless & anything handed to them may as well be airdropped to IS head office in Mosul. The only real way to defeat IS is to back Assad. He is a hero & a saint by comparison to the filthy maggots he is forced to fight. None of the ridiculous games being played by the coalition have the slightest chance of defeating IS. The notion is unprecedented as it is ridiculous. IS are the only serious enemy Assad has. The concept of pathetic little supposedly non Salafist Sunni gangsters being the groundforce to both beat back IS & defeat Assad as a matter of course, neglecting the genocide writ in bold by IS, absurd beyond belief.

[Sixstrings]

Do you believe this bullshit 6? Utter doublespeak lies, all of it.

I just linked the articles, I didn't take a position on it.

The US led effort against IS has been farcical. The Al Nusra front et al are useless & anything handed to them may as well be airdropped to IS head office in Mosul.

Is the map part wrong? That green area isn't really held by the moderate rebels? Looks to me like a 4 way civil war, plus an international coalition plus Iran plus Russia. Busy place.

The only real way to defeat IS is to back Assad. He is a hero & a saint by comparison to the filthy maggots he is forced to fight.

I have no way of knowing what the "truth" is. All I have to go on is media, CNN, etc.

I've seen CNN do stories before about Assad bombing neighborhoods. And the kids were all underground trying to have class, with their govt bombing them from above. The people in that news report didn't look like any ISIS.

So I don't know SG, the best guess I can make about it all is that there is genuine opposition to Assad that's got nothing to do with ISIS. Even if you remove the latter, the civil war never ends until Assad is gone.

It's like a Yanukovich in Ukraine, kind of thing. No one man, no one family, no one port for Russia is worth all this tragedy. And millions of refugees moving to Europe.

None of the ridiculous games being played by the coalition have the slightest chance of defeating IS. The notion is unprecedented as it is ridiculous. IS are the only serious enemy Assad has.

Well, if Russia starts fighting ISIS then I imagine that will be reported in some media outlet. BBC, CNN, Australian media, Japanese, whatever take your pick but if Russia does a great job fighting ISIS then surely it will be reported somewhere.

If Russia fights ISIS, then obviously that helps their case.

If it turns out Russia just fights in that green area on that map, the moderate rebels, then that's different.

I agree with you the coalition has done a lousy job, fighting ISIS.

So other than all the above, I don't have an opinion. I don't even know what the Obama administration strategy is. Do they WANT Iran to fight ISIS, or not? First the West gives Iran 150 billion dollars to arm with weapons from Russia, now we complain that Russia and Iran are arming and fighting in the middle east. Yet isn't that what the Obama admin wanted, isn't that what the Iran deal was about and all the other moves Obama has done up to now?

So yeah, it's confusing.

[Sixstrings]

Leonid Bershidsky: Vladimir Putin’s gamble in Syria

The commentators describe the putative Russian intervention as a Putin gamble. The Russian leader travels to the United Nations General Assembly next week, and there, they speculate, he may offer the U.S. a deal: Russian aid to the anti-ISIL effort in Syria in exchange for concessions on Ukraine and an end to sanctions. “Moscow, which, unlike Washington, doesn’t have to deal with resistance from public opinion and Congress, is to undertake the destruction of ISIL,” Kirill Martynov wrote in Novaya Gazeta.

“If the plan succeeds even partially, the Russian authorities will get all they could ever dream of — the normalization of relations with the West, the prospect of negotiations on the status of Crimea and, at the same time, a demonstration of Russian power throughout the world: unlike the indecisive Western democracies, we are able to attack terrorists even in the Middle East.”

It’s hard to see the Kremlin harbouring any such naive dreams. After years of backing anti-government rebels, the U.S. is highly unlikely suddenly to support a Russian effort to prop up Bashar al-Assad. Moscow has long portrayed him as the lesser evil in the Syrian conflict, but the governments taking part in the U.S.-led anti-ISIL coalition — including Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates — have never bought it. To them, Iran-backed Assad is almost as bad as the ISIL fanatics. Tactically, the U.S. might benefit from Assad’s success against Islamic State, but it won’t back him publicly or make any long-term bets on his success.
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/leonid-bershidsky-vladimir-putins-gamble-in-syria

Interesting. Article says Putin will offer aid to help fight ISIS, in exchange for lifting all sanctions on Russia, settlement on Ukraine, and Crimea recognition.

But that idea really can't go anyhwere, since the entire ME alliance the US leads is all against Assad and can't stand him nor Iran. If Obama takes Putin's offer, it will have to be secret and nothing public about it.

[SeaGypsy]

The writing on the wall is Lybia. Rinse repeat, except in this case IS is just there waiting to take over, genocide all non submissive & non Salafist, turn Damascus into their capital in waiting to take Baghdad etc. The western policy can only result in a Lybia style perpetual regional & ethic war, which in the face of IS is chicken shit takeover material. Assad has a brave & loyal army & millions of citizens under his protection. No doubt he has done some evil shit, & no doubt will do more, but look at IS- blatant genocide across their entire turf- reinventing both the use of the internet & the meaning of the word 'brutality'- culturally utterly retarded vandals of ancient monuments- use of child suicide bombers is commonplace- exposing children to the most hideous violence imaginable is normalized- as is/ slavery, sexual servitude of children, murder on the basis of 'difference', capture of foreign volunteers for use in 'special propaganda missions', the list goes on. IS must be destroyed at all & any cost. Assad by comparison is a run of the middle centrist dictator.

[Keith_McClary]

If Russia wanted to play evil Machiavellian (or Kissingerian) games, they (and the Iraqi and Iranian Shias) could make an under-the-table truce with ISIS, leaving ISIS free to go after the Gulf oil protectorates.

[ralfy]

While the land border between Russia and Iran is much more troublesome than it was before the break up of the USSR the water border of the Caspian Sea is as always still in existence. Plans have been put forward quite a few times to tie the Iranian Natural Gas network into the Russian network, in effect selling the gas to Russia that then in turn sells it to either Europe or East Asia depending on need. The rest of the world is not nearly as simple and backwards as so many try and make it seem.

Indeed. Several of these points support my argument, i.e., borders seen as "troublesome," the breakdown of the USSR, the need to control various territories for one type of advantage or another, arrangements not based on compassion but on economic deals, etc.

[americandream]

If Russia wanted to play evil Machiavellian (or Kissingerian) games, they (and the Iraqi and Iranian Shias) could make an under-the-table truce with ISIS, leaving ISIS free to go after the Gulf oil protectorates.

ISIS are about as reliable as Bin Laden was. Without any real grasp on global geo politics in many of the players in the ME apart from perhaps Assad, Russia is pretty much on its own.

[Tanada]

While the land border between Russia and Iran is much more troublesome than it was before the break up of the USSR the water border of the Caspian Sea is as always still in existence. Plans have been put forward quite a few times to tie the Iranian Natural Gas network into the Russian network, in effect selling the gas to Russia that then in turn sells it to either Europe or East Asia depending on need. The rest of the world is not nearly as simple and backwards as so many try and make it seem.

Indeed. Several of these points support my argument, i.e., borders seen as "troublesome," the breakdown of the USSR, the need to control various territories for one type of advantage or another, arrangements not based on compassion but on economic deals, etc.

The last time I read up on it there were two main competing plans, a land link through Azerbaijan and a sea bottom link directly through the Caspian. The former is cheaper but could cause the same problems they had with Ukraine not paying Iran for the gas or otherwise disrupting sales.

Iran certainly does not mind the buffer states in other ways, you have to remember that during World War II the USSR invaded Iran to access the warm water ports on the Persian Gulf for Lend Lease from the UK and USA. Iran has long viewed Russia as 'the lesser Satan' of international politics. However they would be happy to sell their currently abundant natural gas for a nice source of income.

[davep]

"Russia is not a member of the coalition against ISIL, and what we’ve said is that their continued support to the Assad regime has actually fostered the growth of ISIL inside Syria and made the situation worse,” State Department spokesman John Kirby said on Wednesday

“If they want to be helpful against ISIL, the way to do it is to stop arming and assisting and supporting Bashar al-Assad.”

Because of course only NATO bombs are able to blow ISIS to smithereens

[dissident]

ISIS is no longer a rebellion against Assad. It is an attempt to establish a Salafi caliphate spanning Syria and Iraq. Russia's priorities can change just like those of squeaky clean Uncle Sam. And all this ME mess is far from Uncle Sam's backyard but right on Russia's doorstep. For example, the heroin from Afghanistan, the production of which surged after the US invasion in the wake of 9/11 is a serious problem for Russia. America expended quite a deal of resources trying to suppress Columbian cocaine. Russia has every right to "meddle" in the ME whereas the US pretexts for meddling are purely imperial.

The Middle East is not "right on Russia's doorstep."

Columbia is not on America's doorstep, yet America gave itself the right to meddle there. And the same meddling was applied throughout Latin America. Latin Americans were never the threat to the USA in any shape or form that the Salafi lunatics in the middle east are to Russia. Looks like you are the typical American drone who only sees facts and narratives that suit your fancy.

[SeaGypsy]

Exactly opposite the truth, we get more 1984 as time flies by.

(To the reposted garbage from 6 in Dave's posy before last)

[americandream]

ISIS is no longer a rebellion against Assad. It is an attempt to establish a Salafi caliphate spanning Syria and Iraq. Russia's priorities can change just like those of squeaky clean Uncle Sam. And all this ME mess is far from Uncle Sam's backyard but right on Russia's doorstep. For example, the heroin from Afghanistan, the production of which surged after the US invasion in the wake of 9/11 is a serious problem for Russia. America expended quite a deal of resources trying to suppress Columbian cocaine. Russia has every right to "meddle" in the ME whereas the US pretexts for meddling are purely imperial.

The Middle East is not "right on Russia's doorstep."

Columbia is not on America's doorstep, yet America gave itself the right to meddle there. And the same meddling was applied throughout Latin America. Latin Americans were never the threat to the USA in any shape or form that the Salafi lunatics in the middle east are to Russia. Looks like you are the typical American drone who only sees facts and narratives that suit your fancy.

Aaah, but didnt you get the memo. God is American.

[davep]

Aaah, but didnt you get the memo. God is American.

And he's got lots of foreign bases just in case http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/globalmilitarism58_14.jpg

[ralfy]

Columbia is not on America's doorstep, yet America gave itself the right to meddle there. And the same meddling was applied throughout Latin America. Latin Americans were never the threat to the USA in any shape or form that the Salafi lunatics in the middle east are to Russia. Looks like you are the typical American drone who only sees facts and narratives that suit your fancy.

It was never an issue of whether or not other countries were considered a threat but what economic, political, or strategic advantages could be gained from combinations of covert activity, trade deals, or military intervention. That's why South American countries were never a threat to the U.S., just as rebels in Syria are not a threat to Russia.

[americandream]

Columbia is not on America's doorstep, yet America gave itself the right to meddle there. And the same meddling was applied throughout Latin America. Latin Americans were never the threat to the USA in any shape or form that the Salafi lunatics in the middle east are to Russia. Looks like you are the typical American drone who only sees facts and narratives that suit your fancy.

It was never an issue of whether or not other countries were considered a threat but what economic, political, or strategic advantages could be gained from combinations of covert activity, trade deals, or military intervention. That's why South American countries were never a threat to the U.S., just as rebels in Syria are not a threat to Russia.

US......S America...communist threat

Russia....ME.....Islamic balkanising risk to the Russian Federation.

[ralfy]

The last time I read up on it there were two main competing plans, a land link through Azerbaijan and a sea bottom link directly through the Caspian. The former is cheaper but could cause the same problems they had with Ukraine not paying Iran for the gas or otherwise disrupting sales.

Iran certainly does not mind the buffer states in other ways, you have to remember that during World War II the USSR invaded Iran to access the warm water ports on the Persian Gulf for Lend Lease from the UK and USA. Iran has long viewed Russia as 'the lesser Satan' of international politics. However they would be happy to sell their currently abundant natural gas for a nice source of income.

Again, all of these support my views: economic deals, buffer states, considering the "lesser Satan," and shifts given regime changes due to LIC, military intervention, etc.

[ralfy]

US......S America...communist threat

Russia....ME.....Islamic balkanising risk to the Russian Federation.

Indeed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

and part of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard

where military powers use weaker countries as pawns.