AgentR11 wrote:I already posted what is the right answer, and that is to lock the lines down tight as they are; Estonia is fodder, and deserves to be fodder.
Whoahhhhhhh, Agent.
I don't recall that being what you said. You told me before that that Estonia is nato and Estonia would be the red line.
Have you changed your view.
No -- Estonia is not "fodder" -- Estonia is NATO. We all sink or swim together, or there is no NATO at all. I'll tell you what SHOULD have been done by now, already, and a lot of US troops should have got sent into Estonia. We can play this game in Ukraine as it is, but solid NATO territory needed to be shored up already.I posted the Estonian piece so that you'd understand that we are not defending Truth, Justice, and the American Way; but rather OUR interests, for OUR purposes, for OUR enrichment. We give Russia two options that they can choose between, one of which allows us all to remain alive hating each other till the end of time.
Estonia issue is complex. We'd need another thread on Estonia and start digging into Estonian history and culture and Jesus I do not have the time for that.
The best that I understand it: ethnic estonians have some very bad memories of things that Soviet Russians did. From what I've read, best I can glean it, is that ethnic Russians in Estonia watch Russian tv and all that horrible foxnews propaganda on it. But -- Russians in Estonia are happy, just as Russians in America are happy, and they have a nice standard of living and they like the place and they're not gonna start a revolution.
You brought up the issue of their voting rights. They CAN, in fact, become citizens. I already read into this before. The only issue at hand appears to just be that the Estonian citizenship test requires too much Estonian language proficiency, and really it should be made a bit simpler like we have with our naturalization test, which is "basic English."
We have our own issues in the USA, you know. We've got tens of millions of undocumented Spanish speakers that would like a path to citizenship too. (I'm okay with that, a lot of R's aren't)
BUT AGENT DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD GET INVADED BY RUSSIA, BECAUSE OUR NATURALIZATION TEST REQUIRES ENGLISH? Hell no!
Does that mean Russia has a right to hybrid war in Russia, ostensibly to "look out for" Russians in Estonia? Heck no! Estonia is a sovereign nation!
And WE are a sovereign nation, and we've probably got about a million Russians here. Russia can't invade us! To force us to do things they want us to, for Russians living in America! Do you see the point?
Estonia is soverign and nato and sacrosanct, hybrid war there means war between the West and Russia. Maybe you changed your view, I honestly remember you saying Estonia was the red line, now you say "fodder," I don't know man.
Russia can invade a NATO country, fight, die, launch the nukes and we all die horribly.
Estonia IS A NATO COUNTRY. It's not fodder. And no, they will not launch nukes, just like that, so just stop it. There are about 5,000 escalations between here and there. Ok?
I'll tell you how I know this: because it's strategic. Launching their nukes is a major trump card that Russia has. They're not gonna blow that threat trump card all at once. There's a lot of things they could do, nuclear sabre rattling wise, between here and there. So relax. And they'll never push the button anyway, anymore than Kruschev ever did, or Stalin, or Gorbachev, or Yeltsin.
Or Russian can hold its current lines in Europe, we hold Russian territory absolutely sacrosanct, including Crimea. The frozen zones stay frozen until the end of time;
That's a valid view, but our government and our leaders are nowhere near that yet.
As it stands -- Joe Biden says that Russia has "no right to any sphere of influence." Joe Biden says that all nations are independent and sovereign and can ally with whoever they choose to.
UA slices off the Eastern half and becomes a viable European country with borders at the Dneiper, inclusive of Kharkov probably. Not sure how Odessa plays out. We arm the piddle out of Ukraine, Kiev fights and loses horribly till they decide they've had enough dieing. Russia gets the broken left over in the East of Ukraine. thus, no nuclear exchange;
Well I'm fine with that, some resolution, as it stands all we are doing is losing ground because we don't make a compromise and draw a darn DMZ somewhere and fortify and call it a day.
You are so obsessed with proving that the mess isn't our fault, that you dont' care if we all end up dead because you present the Russian side no option they can live with.
Well Agent, I just happen to agree with that Swedish government minister that said Russia acts like an abuser that wants to blame the victim.
They spin narratives to justify their expansion by force of arms, and somehow everyone else is supposed to feel like it's their fault. I'm countering the propaganda, Agent, that's my view and it's Jeb Bush's view and it's Hillary Clinton's view too.
That is what real Republicans know how to do; win, while insuring your adversary has a position to land in that they can tolerate;
Right.
Republicans can equitably handle Russia. Maybe Hillary Clinton can, too. A Jeb or Hillary are both sort of from the cold war era. With Bush, it's that he's steeped in that history from his father, and all the old cold war era R's on his team.
There's really nothing to fear, people, but fear itself. We have a very long cultural history of dealing with Russia, and they with us, maybe we will have to stand up to each other sometimes but we'll work things out in the end. We'd rather they'd just be our friends, but if that's not what they want, then we know how to be respected adversaries as well.
EDIT: Now this post is way to long but I just want to add, I have been so steeped in hearing the Russian view on things, for so long now, I am actually quite understanding of them. Or their narratives, anyway, and that's all that matters because that's what forms opinion in Russia.
So having said that -- I wouldn't mind seeing a "reset." I'd actually like to see a US president zero in and talk directly to what they say their issues are. This history, and all of that, and about Crimea. BUT AT THE SAME TIME -- that very same president needs to have some US troops fortifying and holding a line in Ukraine.
But I guess if we do that, Russia will never forgive us. But you know what. THEY DON'T OWN UKRAINE. And Ukrainians are human beings, that matter as much as a Russian does. And Estonians, and Poles, are people too and they like us and they're our allies. US troops go over to the Baltics, and the people are nice to them, our cultures have a friendship. Let's not forget that. These are all people, they all matter.
People in the Baltics, and Poland, and Ukraine are good people and they are our friends and allies and they matter:
Latvian, US Soldiers celebrate local military history
ADAZI, Latvia -- American paratroopers joined their Latvian allies as they celebrated the Latvian battalion's anniversary alongside friends and family with food, drink and games here July 24.
Paratroopers with 1st Squadron, 91st Cavalry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade and 3rd Battalion, 158th Aviation Regiment displayed an armored Humvee and UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter for friends and family of the Latvian 2nd Infantry Battalion.
"This is the only day out of the year when I can show my family what I'm doing and where I'm serving," said Latvian Maj. Vents Lapsenbergs, former commander of 2nd Inf. Bn. "It's great that [the Americans] are here. It's a way for kids to see the military. They enjoy climbing on the helicopters - it's something different."
Paratroopers with 1st Sqdn., 91st Cav. Regt., based in Grafenwoehr, Germany, are in Latvia for Operation Atlantic Resolve, an exercise dedicated to demonstrating America's commitment to NATO obligations and to sustain interoperability with allied forces.
"This is the first time U.S. Soldiers have been here and [they] bring a new tradition: we will celebrate our anniversary with our partners," said Latvian Lt. Col. Maris Gavrilko, commander of 2nd Battalion. "This is not what we usually do, but I'm very glad and pleased that we have the opportunity to share this day with the U.S. Soldiers."
...
The American commander seconded his sentiments.
"The exposure, the experience, the friendships that are being developed here are truly amazing," Reed said. "In the grand scheme of all of this, it is about bolstering the NATO alliance. All of us working together creates a stronger defense, whether it's here in the Baltics, in Europe or Africa. Everybody working together achieves greater results than just one military."
There are hundreds of articles and youtubes like that, you can see it for yourself, American servicemen impressed with how friendly the people are and how much they appreciate them being there and USA backing them up.
We need a modern Reagan approach. UNDERSTAND Russia. AND stand up to them. Do both. Trust, verify. And don't throw our friends under the bus either, never.
I'm sorry the post is so long. But we do need more forces in east Europe. The people there need to see our soldiers, it shores up the alliance with them, they need to see our Army are good people that have put their LIVES on the line to defend the freedom of another country. That's the entire ethos of the US military and it's not a bunch of BS, and it's most real in a place like Estonia or Poland where they are genuinely worried they may just be invaded one day if not for America, the only place that can and would stop it.
