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U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

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U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 26 Nov 2013, 23:18:27

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U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

The U.S. moved forcefully to try to counter China's bid for influence over increasingly jittery Asian neighbors by sending a pair of B-52 bombers over disputed islands in the East China Sea, U.S. officials said Tuesday.

The B-52s took off from Andersen Air Force Base in Guam and flew more than 1,500 miles northwest, crossing into what China has declared as its new air-defense identification zone, at about 7 p.m. ET Monday. The U.S. deliberately violated rules set by China by refusing to inform Beijing about the flight, officials said.

China had warned of military action against aircraft entering the zone without notification, but didn't respond to the B-52s, which weren't armed and were part of a long-planned military exercise. A U.S. official said there was no attempt by the Chinese military to contact the B-52s. "The flight was without incident," a U.S. official said.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303281504579221993719005178


Hm, that map looks like trouble.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 26 Nov 2013, 23:52:01

O demonstrates the US is not a paper tiger

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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby argyle » Wed 27 Nov 2013, 05:01:08

Plantagenet wrote:O demonstrates the US is not a paper tiger

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They just want it 'on record' that they are not listening to China's declaration..
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 27 Nov 2013, 11:28:04

On April 1, 2001, a mid-air collision between a United States Navy EP-3E ARIES II signals intelligence aircraft and a People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) J-8II interceptor fighter jet resulted in an international dispute between the United States of America and the People’s Republic of China, called the Hainan Island incident. The EP-3 was operating about 70 miles (110 km) away from the PRC island province of Hainan, and about 100 miles (160 km) away from the Chinese military installation in the Paracel Islands, when it was intercepted by two J-8 fighters. A collision between the EP-3 and one of the J-8s caused the death of a PRC pilot, and the EP-3 was forced to make an emergency landing on Hainan. The 24 crew members were detained and interrogated by the Chinese authorities until a statement was delivered by United States government regarding the incident. The exact phrasing of this document was intentionally ambiguous and allowed both countries to save face while simultaneously defusing a potentially volatile situation between militarily strong regional states.

This time it appears the Chinese didn’t take the bait and just ignored the US as though it were a child throwing a tantrum. The Chinese have warships in the sector…a tad more intimidating than unarmed aircraft at 40,000′ IMHO. I’m guessing the ultimate insult might be for China to not acknowledge/protest the incident. Also good to remember China and the US have a joint military exercise in the Pacific planned in 2014. No doubt that will make Japan feel snug and warm. LOL.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 29 Nov 2013, 19:11:36

China declared its zone.

The US, Japan and South Korea flew jets through the zone.

Now the Chinese have started scrambling jets to intercept anyone flying through their zone.

Its the turn of the US to respond to the latest escalation by China. And the US is going to ...... send Joe Biden to Beijing.

O sends Joe Biden to Beijing to ask China just what in heck they are doing setting up a new air defence zone off their NE coast

The B-52s we sent in didn't make China back down, so now its up to Joe Biden to show China that the US isn't a paper tiger. :roll:
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 04:47:46

You know what, Plant..

The best policy here is what Reagan did with Momar Gahadafii's line that he drew in international waters. China is PLANTING A FLAG in that airspace. You have to stand up to that or they get it, and then before you know it everyone and their brother is drawing lines claiming international waters.

The US ought to send a couple aircraft carrier battle groups right on over to any spot of international water that anyone is claiming. If we don't defend our right to sail and fly anywhere we want in international waters, then we will lose that right.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 11:04:06

I don’t consider myself an expert on the current Chinese political landscape. But I do know a bit of history. Such as this wouldn’t be the first time China took a massive military action against US forces. IOW do all the youngster here know that China had already once chosen to go to war with a nuke armed US? If not just search “Korean war”.

"The US ought to send a couple aircraft carrier battle groups right on over to any spot of international water...". and then what do we do when China sends their carrier (carrying nukes) into international waters off the coast of CA? Even if no shots are fired I would imagine the US stock market would crumble overnight. The only thing preventing such a scenario could be China's concern of damaging their economy. OTOH China does look at the long game compared to the US. They might be willing to take a hit if it cripples the oil consumption of the biggest user on the planet. With $3.50 trillion in foreign currency in the bank China could take a big long term advantage in acquiring all resources. Imagine China with a fat check book and $30 oil. Easy to do: research the increase in Chinese oil acquisition after the price crash at the end of '08.

Just one more speculation to go with so many more out there.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 11:48:46

The Chinese are sitting on a bunch of IOUs and rely on foreign food, foreign funding, foreign energy, and foreign customers. They already have antigovernment riots on a daily basis. Touch one thing and Jenga!
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If the Chinese make a move, the international markets will cut their throats by the end of the business day, and everyone take back their manufacturing jobs, thank you very much.

Nobody would give a shit about China except the government-paid bloggers that wouldn't keep getting a nickle a post to be here.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 14:30:39

The Chinese have already made a move. In fact several. Still waiting for the world's economies to start "punishing them"
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 14:32:06

Sixstrings wrote:You know what, Plant..

The best policy here is what Reagan did with Momar Gahadafii's line that he drew in international waters.....
The US ought to send a couple aircraft carrier battle groups right on over to any spot of international water that anyone is claiming. If we don't defend our right to sail and fly anywhere we want in international waters, then we will lose that right.


You are thinking of the Gulf of Sidra incident in 1981 where Libya claimed more territory in the Mediterranean and Reagan sent in fighter jets who shot down the two Libyan jets who came up to tail the US jets.

Gulf of Sidra incident

But Obama is no Reagan --- Obama thinks he is going to make China stand down by sending in Joe Biden.

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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 14:59:17

Wow the contrarian/alarmist bullshit is so predictable and tedious.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 30 Nov 2013, 19:56:58

O admin tells US airlines to obey Chinese rules in Chinas new ADZ.

US tells airlines they must obey China in new zone

WOW! We're halfway to giving in to China already, and less than a week has gone by. This has got to be some kind of speed record for a craven capitulation.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 12:04:14

Plantagenet wrote:O admin tells US airlines to obey Chinese rules in Chinas new ADZ.

US tells airlines they must obey China in new zone

WOW! We're halfway to giving in to China already, and less than a week has gone by. This has got to be some kind of speed record for a craven capitulation.


Well that's reasonable. We ought to be sending the USAF and navy through that zone, but you don't want to take chances with passenger jets.

What's the real geopolitical situation on this???

From my little reading I do, seems like the US is focused on China as the growing future threat, even pulling out of elsewhere to focus on the pacific. But to what end? Shouldn't the darn Europeans be helping us, where are they? And the Australians, they're already snug in bed with China anyway.

The Japanese and Chinese have long time generational animosity, Japan's never going to go to the Chinese as Australia has. But what are we, the US, even opposing here with China?

Is it general containment? To reign in a new superpower before it can get too big?

Ok, so let's say the Chinese get sway over Japan and Korea and Taiwan and Singpore and all of them, why do we care, and how far is it worth going toe to toe with them? Other than CONTAINING CHINA and its potential threat if it gets too big, then I don't see any reason to bother with it. That and Japan and South Korea and others having been such reliable good allies for so long. Japan's the kind of place that the US could count on to buy a bunch of tbills if we ever got in a lurch. A solid ally, not one of these "frenemies." But with no monumental ideological struggle like communism vs. capitalism going on now, then what exactly is the point and how far to we go.

I can see that containment is necessary, the US is definitely screwed and all our dollars become worthless and we'll get much poorer and a real banana republic mess if China ever gets superpower status, has sway over Japan and the Pacific, then decides to lead the world into "de-Americanizing."

Like Russia, China has a totalitarian bent and they don't share our values. So the world would be led by tyranny, we go and win the cold war after half a century just to wind up with that state of affairs.

And then I wonder, are we any different anyway, we're already becoming more like the Chinese and Russians ourselves -- i.e. all the nsa spying and loss of civil liberties, how can we spy on the whole world's phone calls and have any moral credibility opposing Chinese or Russian authoritarianism? If we become no different than they are, then we've already lost the war before it ever starts.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 12:21:57

WOW! We're halfway to giving in to China already, and less than a week has gone by. This has got to be some kind of speed record for a craven capitulation.


Got to remember that the US is not just one entity. Its no single person, building, or geographic land space. Some elements of the US violated China's airspace, then some other elements of the US caved to pressure. What this series of events speak to is that the US is not a coherent voice, and does not project coherent power anymore; it is well on it's way to becoming a fragmented entity.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 12:29:51

FYI: "China has reportedly developed and tested the world's first anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) called DF-21D, with a maximum range of around 2,700 kilometres (1,700 mi), in 2005, according to the US Department of Defense. It is estimated to have reached initial operating capability in 2007 or 2008. The guidance system is thought to be still in an evolutionary process as more UAV and satellites are added. The DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile itself is assumed to have entered active service by 2009. The US Department of Defense has stated that China has developed and reached initial operating capability of a conventionally armed high hypersonic land-based anti-ship ballistic missile based on the DF-21. This would be the world's first ASBM and the world's first weapons system capable of targeting a moving aircraft carrier strike group from long-range, land-based mobile launchers. These would combine maneuverable reentry vehicles (MaRVs) with some kind of terminal guidance system. Such a missile may have been tested in 2005-6, and the launch of the Jianbing-5/YaoGan-1 and Jianbing-6/YaoGan-2 satellites would give the Chinese targeting information from SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) and visual imaging respectively. The upgrades would greatly enhance China's ability to conduct sea-denial operations to prevent US carriers from intervening in the Taiwan Strait. United States Naval Institute in 2009 stated that such a warhead would be large enough to destroy an aircraft carrier in one hit and that there was "currently ... no defense against it" if it worked as theorized."

Apparently the Chinese have been preparing to confront any US Navy force projection into the Asian theater for a long time. And if one accepts the thoughts of the US military think-tanks they are there now. Of course some armchair generals might dismiss such a potential threat. I recall similar proclamations made long ago about blasting some diminutive Asians back to the stone age. As Dr. Phil would ask: How that work for you? LOL.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 13:03:34

ROCKMAN wrote:Apparently the Chinese have been preparing to confront any US Navy force projection into the Asian theater for a long time. And if one accepts the thoughts of the US military think-tanks they are there now. Of course some armchair generals might dismiss such a potential threat. I recall similar proclamations made long ago about blasting some diminutive Asians back to the stone age. As Dr. Phil would ask: How that work for you? LOL.


Yeah that would be bad, if China has a way to just render our big supercarriers obsolete.

The thing about China is that they play a very long game, for decades their defense planning has been all about neutralizing the US. We really should pay attention when an Asian country does that, look at Japan's buildup pre-WWII. When China decides it's time to expand, and we're standing in the way, then they'll do just what Japan did and hit us first and hit hard.

I'm not really sure how all this will shake out. They've been planning for DECADES. Spying on us, stealing our tech. They've attempted anti-satellite weapons, and cyberwar to take down our internet. All of this is targeted at us.

They've been orienting their economy to consumers, more and more replacing the United States. If not #1, they're a top export market for quality European exports.

All of China's moves over these decades are about neutralizing the US and replacing us. So what happens when that day comes, when they are able to just fire those new missiles and our navy is meaningless. What happens when their economy has replaced ours. What happens when the Chinese don't need us around anymore? And Europe and the world have essentially already realigned to them, economicly, and you can look at Australia and see they're already lost and gone over to the Chinese.

It's a drip-drip-drip thing, this recent "de-americanizing" talk was new for them.

When China's plans all come to fruiition, what will they do then? Nothing? Or will they make a move? The US first has to decide what we're in the Pacific for in the first place -- is it containment so China can't de-americanize the world and cripple us, is it about holding the line on Taiwan and protecting Japan and South Korea, and keeping them in the American SOI?

If the US decides it needs to contain China, then we have to make some moves while we still can. And respond forcefully to encroachments like this air ID zone.

These are international waters. The US would have every right to fill thsoe skies with USAF and navy task forces. That's not an aggressive stance, we're just going on out there and daring them to shoot at us or they can back down take your pick. What China has done is the aggressive stance, they have claimed a chunk of airspace that covers a Japanese island and announced that aircraft not identifying to them may be shot down.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 13:29:17

6 - I still think the best thing the US has going for it is that MADOR concept: Mutually Assured Distribution OF Resources. The Chinese are fine with the US gobbling up so much of the planet's resources...as long as China gets what it needs. China needs two big components for the economy: energy and buyers for their products. Those buyers, including the US, have created a $3.5 TRILLION nest egg of foreign currency for China. A nest egg fueling their efforts to control global resources. In that sense the US has a bit of a safety net IMHO. So I agree with you: "That's not an aggressive stance, we're just going on out there and daring them to shoot at us...". If the US and the Chinese play out these theatrics properly (and no one foolishly pulls a trigger - see "The Bedford Incident" movie) both sides can assert their rhetoric has done its job. And nothing changes. Except, of course, that the other Asian countries will see the writing on the wall: in the not too distant future they'll either one "friend", China, or no friend.

Choose wisely, grasshopper.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 17:29:03

If China wants to make things tough for the USA all they have to do is send Kim Jong Un south. We no longer have the military strength to be in so many places at once, even if we pulled everyone out of Afghanistan we just don't have the manpower. Our troops are exhausted after 10 years of no win fighting against opponents who just won't stop until you kill them.

Technically all we have at the 38th parallel is a cease fire agreement, not even anything close to a peace treaty or formal accord of understanding. If North Korea pours over into the south how long and how strong will the USA response be? If we let the south fall who will want to be allied with us in the future? It is a real catch 22, failing to live up to our commitments makes the rest of our foreign policy empty rhetoric. Living up to our promises would be a very hard path to follow.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 01 Dec 2013, 17:58:08

Tanada wrote: It is a real catch 22, failing to live up to our commitments makes the rest of our foreign policy empty rhetoric. Living up to our promises would be a very hard path to follow.


But it just gets harder, as you begin to appease and falter.

Geopolitics is like a grade school playground. It has bullies. Strength is respected, and weakness is taken advantage of, always.

The trick with appeasment is you got to know when to stop and stand up, *before it's too late*. Not following through with military action on Syria seriously damaged American credibility with foreign powers. It was a sign of weakness, it was faltering and confusion, and now things are worse as others push farther to test us.
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Re: U.S. Directly Challenges China's Air Defense Zone

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 02 Dec 2013, 02:42:14

Plantagenet wrote:China declared its zone.
Does the US have a "zone"?
Facebook knows you're a dog.
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