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PeakOil is You

THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby hvacman » Thu 28 May 2015, 14:33:39

For the record, I have no religious beliefs that I am aware of. I have never regularly attended any church since I was a child with no choice in the matter. I believe in science and don't capitalize it


OT, but I do have a question for KJ - as an tech guy from Silicon Valley with an atheistic bent, what's your take on Isaac Asimov's short story "The Last Question"?

For those unfamiliar with it, it is a story that asks - and answers - what could happen when the universe's entropy reaches maximum. A brilliantly-written tale by one of SF's greats. Mandatory reading for anyone interested in PO, for what is PO if not a study on entropy reaching maximum? It begins thusly:

The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:

Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.

Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share In the glory that was Multivac's.


Here's a link to the rest of story:

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 28 May 2015, 15:19:32

hvacman, that particular story requires that you believe in the "Big Bang" origin of the universe, and I never have done so, so I was less impressed with it than many others.

I was more fond of an A. Bertram Chandler short novel of the origin of the universe as a "Steady State" condition of infinite extent. (Alas I cannot remember the tale's name although I recall explicit details about the plot.) A rich man who made his fortune selling zero gravity toilets for use in space desires to make his name in scientific circles for some original research. He hires Commander Grimes who was between ships to command his space yacht. They travel to the center of the Galaxy to determine the source of the hydrogen that suffuses the universe from the not-so-black hole anomaly located there. Unfortunately for the ambitious human they make a discovery that ensures his name will live forever in infamy: the anomalous hydrogen source is actually the anus of God. :mrgreen:

It has been decades since I read it, but I have a memory of all the details save the title.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 28 May 2015, 15:51:25

Lore wrote:That is what denial is, an investment in belief which contradicts the evidence over ones own rational understanding, or critical thinking. No amount of data will change it because the psychological investment is too great to overturn. Doing so would upset the foundation of the reality such people exist in and threaten other beliefs they hold valid which may also be potentially unsubstantiated.


Very well said, and wise.

And that's also the essence of conservativism, other than economic. People get more conservative, the older they get -- they see the world changing around them, and it makes them uncomfortable, and they want to slow down that change.

But on the topic of this thread, in general..

I'm a Democrat. But if we face genuine threats in the world, then we need a FDR to lead us and not a Noam Chomsky. We don't want another Vietnam somewhere either, of course, so we can't have a Lyndon Johnson either.

These Obama years have been a great experiment, in America "doing less" abroad. This is what the world said they wanted. They even gave Obama the nobel peace prize, they were so grateful we elected him and we were going to pull back.

So we pulled back. And then a terrorist caliphate got a hold on Iraq and Syria, and the problem spread to all of Europe and as far away as Australia.

So we pulled back.. did less in the world.. and Russia started a war in the Ukraine.

So we pulled back.. and China tried to effectively annex the east china sea, now the south china sea.

My problem with the whole "Noam Chomsky" thing is that we do not live in some perfect world, where if only awful America would just pull back that somehow better people rise up to fill the power vacuum. So that's my honest concern about it all. I've never once heard Noam Chomsky have anything to say about China, or Russia, or ME terrorists / ayatollahs.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby hvacman » Thu 28 May 2015, 16:08:34

the anomalous hydrogen source is actually the anus of God.


Ah, finally the true definition of the "hydrogen highway":)

Interesting story. Thanks.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby sparky » Thu 28 May 2015, 16:37:04

.
Pretty confused thread on " Fascism"
Mussolini was a socialist member of parliament
it was a socialist movement ,born out of the disgust of Italian politics ( who can blame them)
which saw a generation of young men butchered on the WW1 battlefield
the people were being robbed by a professional political class which sold itself to lobbies

the structure was a leader directly in touch with the people bypassing traditional governance
great public projects , like the reclamation of the Pontines marshes ,
prestige technological achievement especially in aviation technology
the extermination war against the Mafia , which made them run to America
an assertive foreign policy , price control over food and sheltering from the great depression

Fascism was seen as way out of the tired old politics and economics which had so manifestly failed
numerous Italian Jews embraced its goals and purposes ,
not least for standing up to the power of the Catholic church

Meanwhile in Germany , with the very real concern that German Bolshevism would sweep all before it
some interests promoted a German version , somewhat different , with a stronger emphasis on the ethnic bond

in the streets of "red" Hamburg , in opposition to the Sozis (social democrats) came the Nazis ( national socialists)
the name stuck

quote from Goebbels " democracy is a system where two wolves an a sheep decide what is for diner "

this endless re-hashing of past events is somewhat right , for nothing is totally new
and totally wrong for things are never the same
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Thu 28 May 2015, 16:50:15

sparky wrote:.
this endless re-hashing of past events is somewhat right , for nothing is totally new
and totally wrong for things are never the same


Got that right! A lot of this is current history, which says much about how things change.

What we are keen on developing here in the U.S. right now is a modern form of an oligarchy.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 28 May 2015, 18:11:14

KaiserJeep wrote:My favorite Fascist quotes:

Barack Obama:
"I've got a pen and I've got a phone - and I can use that pen to sign executive orders and take executive actions and administrative actions that move the ball forward."


Executive order
Basis in United States Constitution
There is no constitutional provision nor statute that explicitly permits executive orders. The term executive power Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Constitution, refers to the title of President as the executive. He is instructed therein by the declaration "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" made in Article II, Section 3, Clause 5, else he faces impeachment. Most executive orders use these Constitutional reasonings as the authorization allowing for their issuance to be justified as part of the President's sworn duties,[2] the intent being to help direct officers of the U.S. Executive carry out their delegated duties as well as the normal operations of the federal government: the consequence of failing to comply possibly being the removal from office.[3]
An executive order of the president must find support in the Constitution, either in a clause granting the president specific power, or by a delegation of power by Congress to the president.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order


KaiserJeep wrote:For the record, I have no religious beliefs that I am aware of.
Do you believe there is such a thing as a "Jewish People" whose members are born (wherever in the world) with an entitlement to a "State of the Jewish People"? Can you define "Jewish" without reference to religion?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 28 May 2015, 19:46:25

The Human Genome project indicated that the Jews are probably derived from various Levantine tribes around 3000 BC. But I can define the state of Israel as the country created by the UN General Assembly "Partition Plan" of 29 November 1947. It is the only state with a majority of "Jews" in it's population. Clearly they think the term has meaning.

The self-identified Jews I know and have known live mainly in New York and Florida and are pretty much secular. My Silly Valley next door neighbor self-identifies as a Russian Jew and is completely secular.

Whether the term "Jew" means anything is something I find of only mild interest. But the State of Israel is a shining beacon of hope, a representative Democracy that has the highest standard of living in the entire Middle East - and attracts the envy of the states around it and the specific hatred of Muslim leaders who fear the spread of Democracy.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 28 May 2015, 21:43:13

The UN certainly did not 'create' Israel. They authorised Zionist creation of the State, which is arguably only in existence because of Jewish persecution in Europe & Russia over the previous couple of hundred years. The UN was guilt tripped into sanctioning Israel.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 28 May 2015, 22:43:54

KaiserJeep wrote:I would refer everyone to one of the best selling books of the last decade:
Image


Even Jonah now basically apologizes for the title of that book, because it makes him look like a total moron.

The strategy was very simple - take a few cherry picked phrases from the early Nazi propaganda when the Nazis were still trying to sound like nice guys, while ignoring all the opposite things they really did.

But even if you ignore the cherry picked quotes, Hitler's message was clear - liberals (Jews, and he used liberals and Jews interchangeably) were coming to kill all the white people! The Jews (liberals) were supposed to be subversive genocidal maniacs.

Fast forward to the Jade Helm idiots, who pretty clearly believe the same as Hitler.
Image

The GOP was all set to roll with the "liberal fascist" line until Obama got nominated. But how to call him a Nazi?

Yeah, these guys are definitely Obama voters....
Image

Kaiser Jeep, you and I have been down this road several times - your most dear beliefs are right out of Mein Kampf. "Liberals Fascism" and Glenn Beck are Mein Kampf for people in trailer parks with basic cable. Nazism was for extremely conservative white rural Christian antisemites, and Germany had millions of them.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 28 May 2015, 22:50:04

KaiserJeep wrote:Whether the term "Jew" means anything is something I find of only mild interest..

The "secular" regime seems to think it very important:
African-American converts finally recognized as Jews in Israel
After challenging validity of non-Orthodox conversions, Interior Ministry backs down in legal fight.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 28 May 2015, 23:24:53

Cog wrote:The biggest fascists that I have ever met consider themselves progressives.

+2000
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 28 May 2015, 23:53:48

I'm not buying any suggestion that the Democratic Party, and modern "progressives" in particular, are not Authoritarian to an amazing degree, even to overlapping the Liberal Fascists of the last century. The worst of the lot are the rabid AGW and Climate Change fanboys, ready to forbid people from this, that, and nearly everything involving fossil fuels.

This is NOT a comment born in partisanship, I have never been a member of any political party, and in fact don't believe in them. But too many believe that Fascists and Nazi's are one and the same. This has never been true, all a Fascist needs is a shread of an excuse to curtail someone else's freedom, and few are better at this than the modern US Democratic Party.

Nobody should be surprised. The Democrats were founded by Andrew Jackson, a man who believed in slavery, and owned hundreds of slaves. A man who slaughtered Native Americans for years, and favored "Indian Relocation". A party that as late as the 1960's, represented the extreme right wing of American Politics. All the members of the KKK were good ol' Southern Democrats.

They haven't changed that much since then, either.
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