vtsnowedin wrote:The danger is that Putin or his successor will see our leadership as weak and ineffective and make a grab for one of their old satellite countries thinking they can bluff us into letting it go.
Or even more incredibly, a western democracy -- after years of being influenced by kremlin propaganda programs, like RT etc. -- finally just VOTES to become a Russian satellite!
Jeremy Corbyn (green party) over in the UK, is VERY pro Russia. And he got pretty far, all the way to Labour Party leader. And look what happened with UK, they voted brexit. Which aligns with Moscow's interests.
Then here in the US -- there was some concern about Trump for a while. For goodness sake, his campaign manager was previously a senior political adviser for ex ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovich.
The Russian Ambassador was in the front row, first seat of his foreign policy speech.
And Trump was saying crazy things, like maybe just disband NATO, and that Putin is so great. Wtf.
Russian propaganda is so strong, and it's blasted on all the tv's in Russia and all their state media and then they have an entire wing that spends BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of hard money just on pumping out the propaganda to international audiences.
It has an affect. Now when there's an international crisis, a good solid 40%ish chunk of Americans are actually reflexively knee jerk giving the kremlin propaganda line.
So that's why I'm talking about establishment things lately, and REALITY.
People can't just talk about RUSSIA all the time -- they need to talk about Sweden too, and Poland, and Norway, and Estonia and Latvia and Lithuania. They need to understand these places TOO. That Poles are people TOO, same as Russians are, and it's the former that's allied to us and is our friend. Not to mention all the Polish Americans we have in this country.
The reality is that no, we cannot ever throw Poland under the bus. Maybe the Brits can, or west euros can / don't give a flip, but we cannot.After the Cold War, and east europe joining the West.. whether these places stay in EU or not, AMERICA still must be there for them. Because WE are democracy's ultimate backstop.
That's what this country's values are -- democracy, rule of law, human rights, doing the right thing. DEFENDING democracies abroad, and promoting democracy in the world, because we know that makes a better world.. and is safer for us. Democracies don't war on each other, or others. Democracies have the most freedom, and therefore the best economies and most tech innovation, and progress overall.
Americans do not believe in a world where people MUST be ruled by strongmen, and iron fists, and just TOLD what to do.
These are basic fundamental principles that goes back centuries in this country, and no amount of Russian propaganda should ever wipe that away.
Wake up folks, consider the words of Gary Kasporov:
Kasporov liked Marco Rubio, back in the primaries:
My pick (for an establishment pick), back in the primaries, was JEB BUSH. It's BUSH that would have been BEST on foreign policy. Honestly. Jeb was perfect, he is like HW Bush actually and not W. But that's water under the bridge now, nobody liked Jeb.. but I have to tell ya folks, he really would have been the best president.
My only complaint was just that he was not for a few lefty domestic things, like minimum wage. Foreign policy though, and decisive yet JUST and fair commander in chief? And core American values, and integrity, and morality, honesty and a good guy? That's Jeb Bush.
Also, incidentally, Bernie Sanders is NOT green party type far left to the point of being like a kremlin puppet. Bernie is a leftist that matured over the years, and with age. In the Senate, Bernie voted for every Ukraine support bill. Bernie supports NATO, he believes in American values.
Bernie's establishment, on foreign policy. And that's why I was happy to vote for Bernie, because he was for the things that need done domestically, but he had the right stance on foreign policy too (I would NEVER trade American values just to see some social programs passed.. if it's a choice between those two, it must be the former, because that is the RIGHT thing).
EDIT: as neocon as I'm sounding, just to note, actually Marco Rubio was too neocon for me. It's one thing for me to make a post on this forum, but I don't actually want a president that rants and raves about it. And that's what Rubio did. He was just too zealous.
PERFECT is someone like old HW Bush. Or Reagan. The right values but not a zealot either, and calm. In the Republican primary, that was Jeb Bush. But alas, Republicans wanted exciting. They wanted change, and "something different." I wish the political realities were such that Jeb Bush could have just been for $15 minimum wage.
When we talk about ending globalism, or pulling out of NATO, and questioning whether Japan is an ally etc. etc. ... these are such SERIOUS things, that raising taxes on some rich just a tad, or corporate America having to pay a $15 min wage is NOTHING in comparison.
For the future -- it would be NICE if somehow, there could start being some HW Bush type Republicans again. That they could raise taxes on the rich a bit, and not get run out of office.. that they could just do a few good things on domestic policy; otherwise, THAT type of Republican is very good in office.
Another thing to clarify -- I'm not anti Russia, I am in fact in favor of working with Russia and really TRYING on that,
but the main thing is that can't mean we ever lose our American values.And the last thing I'll say -- is just that Russia isn't the only place in the world. There needs to be some more focus on issues in Mexico, like helping them combat their drug cartels etc.. and there should be more cooperation / working with Canada and South America.
And the US needs to do some more getting India into the fold, out in the Pacific. And we have to work with China, but also COUNTER them too -- get India on board with us, and then we've got Japan and SK and Indonesia and Australia all on the same team.. then solidify Vietnam (Obama did a big trip over there).. if India were added to that, then that's good national security. That's the whole Pacific, other than China.