[Sixstrings]

US and Russia find common ground on Ukraine
Sergei Lavrov and John Kerry agree at talks in Beijing to exchange information about situation on Russia-Ukraine border.

Russia's foreign minister Sergey Lavrov has welcomed US involvement in resolving the Ukraine crisis, saying it would be a "step in the right direction," in comments that appear to reflect a toning down in bilateral tension that has been at its worst since the end of the Cold War.

Lavrov's remarks came after a meeting in Beijing with John Kerry, his US counterpart, and precede high-level meetings scheduled to take place between President Vladimir Putin and world leaders at an Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation (APEC) summit in China, and a Group of 20 summit in Australia, next week.

"Our positions on what is happening in Ukraine do not correspond with the United States, but if Washington is interested in contributing to the reconciliation of the situation and creating dialogue between Kiev and the rebel leadership... I think that would be a step in the right direction," the Russian foreign minister said in comments shown on state television.

Kerry said his country had agreed with Moscow on exchanging information about the situation on the Russia-Ukraine border.

Ukraine's military accused Russia on Friday of sending a column of 32 tanks and truckloads of troops into the country's east to support pro-Russian separatists fighting government forces.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/11/us-russia-find-common-ground-ukraine-201411816486962861.html

Why do I always get the feeling from these pictures that John Kerry is negotiating away chunks of Europe.

He's not a match for Lavrov, Obama's not a match for Putin, that's the truth.

But anyhow.. is this good news? Is it just chess? Does Russian gov know the Republican senate may arm Ukraine? Is this genuine, or a stalling tactic?

Is it just more European "lets have talks" and the whole time Russian tanks come over the border, and "little green men?"

Thinking about it, it's for darn sure that Crimea and New Russia returning to Ukraine are not on the table. So let's start there.

So what are the "talks" between the sides for, then.

I'm okay with talks but what's most important is that there needs to be a real red line drawn somewhere in Ukraine and then you need the US making sure the Russian Army does not cross that line. Make a red line and hold the line, and then have talks.

[SeaGypsy]

Putin wants the yanks up close because in being so it will become much more difficult to keep up the b/s in support of Kiev.

[Sixstrings]

Putin wants the yanks up close because in being so it will become much more difficult to keep up the b/s in support of Kiev.

Nah, that's not it. Something's going on though.

Note they met in Beijing. So what's the Chinese angle, maybe the Chinese are leaning on Russia to cut it out.

Or it's about the upcoming Republican Congress and arms for Ukraine which Russia sure as heck would not want to see.

Or it's about the upcoming G20 meeting in Australia -- Putin's gotta have some kind of line to tell everyone, but *I think it is just more stalling*. Europeans love "talks." Russians know that. But just because there are "talks" doesn't mean Putin isn't going right on ahead with tanks over the border.

Hitler had talks, too. He talked to a lot of people, he talked to Neville Chamberlain, didn't mean anything though. It was just stalling. It was just sand kicked up in the air.

The only bottom line on this is at this point -- after a year now -- there either needs to be a US-armed Ukraine that's capable of picking a spot and drawing a red line and holding the line, or US military in Ukraine to do that for them.

Pick a spot Russia hasn't crossed yet. Draw a line. Hold the line.

Just my opinion, we'll see what John McCain and Lyndsey Graham wind up doing. When the new session starts the senate will take up the two house bills passed, and then the senate will conference with the repub house and send it to Obama. It may have arms for Ukraine, it may not, Obama may veto it, or maybe it will pass with veto-proof supermajority.

[SeaGypsy]

Even if hold the line means start a thermonuclear war and basically end the world. Over Ukraine. You are nuts.

[SeaGypsy]

Even if hold the line means start a thermonuclear war and basically end the world. Over Ukraine. You are nuts.

[americandream]

As I have reminded you people over and over including that dolt sixstrings, this is basically the worlds capitalists having their little tiffs over who sits where at the top table.

[SeaGypsy]

Sure, but the toffs having a meeting and a thousand dollar each dinner has never meant a lot about the fate of their various minions.

[Sixstrings]

Even if hold the line means start a thermonuclear war and basically end the world. Over Ukraine. You are nuts.

Well I'm calling Russia's bluff that they aren't actually crazy, and would end Russia, by first striking us over Ukraine. They may want us to think they're crazy, but I don't buy it.

If they're that serious about Ukraine though SG, they'd let us know at some point. Probably after the first US divisions arrived in West Ukraine. Then Russians would rattle a sabre hard. And then the US could make a secret promise to stay in West Ukraine, not go into the east. And voila, a compromise between tough guys, and the erosion of the Ukrainian state is halted.

But anyhow, if not Ukraine, then tell me where NATO's line should be. Just pick your spot SG, and stick with it.

Estonia? Moldova? Sweden? Finland?

Just tell me where the line is.

Obviously, we are never going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine. But I don't know if the US gov really could just sit and watch at this point, if Russia makes a move further West, it's too invested in it now we can't just watch Kiev fall.

Russia just wouldn't push the nuke button out of nowhere. They'd let us know what their red line is. They can take all of Ukraine if they want to, if they're really going to threaten pushing the nuke button over it, then of course we have to let them take it.

But then that totally brings on cold war again, Russia would be outcast from the international community, all Russia would have in the world to talk to is China and North Korea and Fidel Castro down in Cuba. What kind of future is that, for them. Yeah they'd have Ukraine, yeah we couldn't stop them from annexing non-nato states, but they'd be out of the g20 and cast off from the West completely. They don't actually want that.

And they aren't that serious about it anyway SG, if they were then they would have just rolled the Russian Army in straight to Kiev at the start of this thing right?

SG -- no, I'm not in favor of darn nuclear war -- but it would be pretty sad to have to watch west ukraine invaded and subjugated and put down by the Russian Army and everyone just has to watch it because Russia says it has nukes and will nuke us if we try to stop them.

[americandream]

Sure, but the toffs having a meeting and a thousand dollar each dinner has never meant a lot about the fate of their various minions.

Yet you still have the likes of sixstrings pontificating as if their opinions have really mattered. These people are dumb as.

[Sixstrings]

Yet you still have the likes of sixstrings pontificating as if their opinions have really mattered. These people are dumb as.

I tell ya what, when China eventually starts messing with Australia and NZ then I won't give a flip, that make you feel better?

By the way, what do you guys think of Australia's entanglement with Japan lately. Japan's doing a military buildup to counter China. And looking for closer military cooperation with Australia.

Meanwhile, Uncle Sam would like to have less burden in the Pacific and would like Australia to work with Japan and you all defend yourselves.

Australian government under pressure to hold submarine tender after eyeing Japan deal


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/06/us-australia-submarines-idUSKBN0IQ2DZ20141106

But what happens when Japan gets a little too hot and heavy with China over some barren rock in the ocean, does Australia get mixed up in that too with their new fleet of Japanese submarines?

[SeaGypsy]

I keep thinking of a parallel universe where the history of the Americas ran slightly differently ending up at this point with significant chunks of ex protectorate Mexico for example, harboured a majority in significant cities and a significant minority elsewhere, of Americans> a neo nazi party popular in Europe gains control of this ex protectorate full of Americans... What the hell would America do? My bet is more or less what Putin is doing. All the hot air about it is absurd.

[SeaGypsy]

Btw 6 you know jack about China. Use Japan, Philippines & Vietnam news sites & search territorial conflict with China. There is far more validity to Russia supporting rebels in Ukraine than there is in any of China's SE Asian land & ocean grabs.

[americandream]

China, Japan, Russia......all sucking capitalist balls despite the occasional bit of squabbling. The Saudis have been up capitalisms rear end for as long as this Islamic bull has been brewing. I don't take any notice of these tools.

[SeaGypsy]

Capitalists at the level of caring for the human flocks insofar as such makes good business sense. I think you are correct as to the utility of full scale war between these emerging engines of capitalism is not there.

[Sixstrings]

Btw 6 you know jack about China. Use Japan, Philippines & Vietnam news sites & search territorial conflict with China. There is far more validity to Russia supporting rebels in Ukraine than there is in any of China's SE Asian land & ocean grabs.

SG -- nobody lives on those rocks in the ocean.

Whereas -- 45 million people live in Ukraine. And most of those people do not want Russian annexation or their country torn apart.

Show me some people on the rocks in the Pacific waving US flags begging for some help, let me hear them saying they want freedom and free speech and don't want dictatorship, and sure my heart will go out to them.

Those rocks don't have anyone on them.

And I'm all for the protesters in Hong Kong too but guess what -- China has acted responsibly about Hong Kong, unlike Russia has with Ukraine. And Hong Kong is even Chinese territory, they've got PLA right there and still never did a crack down.

I'm cool about China. China hasn't done what Russia has.

[SeaGypsy]

Better check the distillery filter again 6. Break the world population into chunks, SE Asia, ASEAN= the 3rd biggest collective market, only smaller than China itself and India. Those goddam rocks you think mean nothing, rise from a sea which supplies a good chunk of the protein for this 3rd billion plus people, contains disputes gas & oil fields of unknown proportion to people buying commodities at world prices but working 12 hour days for $2. There are somewhere between 9 million & 14 million Russians in Ukraine last time I checked. There is nothing like this ratio of Chinese anywhere in SE Asia, even in Singapore.

[Sixstrings]

Better check the distillery filter again 6. Break the world population into chunks, SE Asia, ASEAN= the 3rd biggest collective market, only smaller than China itself and India. Those goddam rocks you think mean nothing, rise from a sea which supplies a good chunk of the protein for this 3rd billion plus people, contains disputes gas & oil fields of unknown proportion to people buying commodities at world prices but working 12 hour days for $2. There are somewhere between 9 million & 14 million Russians in Ukraine last time I checked. There is nothing like this ratio of Chinese anywhere in SE Asia, even in Singapore.

And most of those "Russians" in Ukraine consider themselves Ukrainian. "Kiev" is the 3rd largest Russian-speaking city in the whole world. There are Russian speakers in the "Kiev" volunteer militias.

But okay we're on about China now.

Are you concerned about China?

If so, then how about lending Uncle Sam and your European friends a hand about Ukraine and Finland that's worried about Russia and Sweden that's worried about Russia.

Seems to me Aussies only care when it's about them. They never cared about Ukraine until that airliner went down. And now your PM says he will "shirtfront" Putin and "give him a good talking to" at the upcoming g20 in Australia.

If you want your allies with you when you need them, then you should be there for them when they are needing you. Where is Australia.. on Ukraine and east europe.. if you want everyone else to care about you when your hour of need comes, you need to be there for them too, and supporting human rights and democracy and the Western way of life.

And it would help if Aussies could tone down the anti-americanism and throw away the Noam Chomsky books.

It's not the USA taking over islands and fisheries, in the Pacific, it's China. But why should I care? What's that to me? I can't get worked up about a barren rock that China and Japan have been arguing over for God knows how long. And fisheries.

USA has to pick its battles, we can't fight everyone all the time, right now China's looking pretty good compared to Russia and the frickin' Islamic Caliphate over in Iraq.

If only Russia stuck to seizing fisheries and rocks in the water, that would be better than annexing people.

[americandream]

Capitalists at the level of caring for the human flocks insofar as such makes good business sense. I think you are correct as to the utility of full scale war between these emerging engines of capitalism is not there.

Why would they. Life has never been better. Would you go to war for the likes of sixstring and his job if youre a rich yank with a factory in China?

[SeaGypsy]

Isn't it weird AD, the parallel universe where Australia is anti American. Wow.

[SeaGypsy]

Really 6, check your meds dude. Australia is inevitably a juggler, a court jester, to someone & then essentially to everyone. We are like that noisy rooster you know would be hard to catch & kill then barely worth it coz under all that feather he's mostly string & bone. NZ has it's own peculiarities & similarities, but anyway, our position gives us an objective edge not apparent in many American writers when it comes to interpreting international affairs. Writing about economics & geopolitics from within the USA is like giving a weather forecast hanging onto a light pole in a tornado. You are in spin central. It shows.