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Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 16:36:52

Sixstrings wrote:If Russia doesn't want a cold war, then it would have been smarter to not start one. If they don't want a hot war, they'd best keep this contained to Ukraine and not expand it elsewhere -- especially nato states.


1) Putin *DOES* want a cold war, and he wants US to pay for all the population suppression and control measures that go with.

2) Your fantasy about a hot war needs to go away. A hot war that places the survival of Russia at risk, ENDS THE WORLD. But, about the only way that can happen is if we respond by invading Russia, in response to activity in a non-nato country. I do not think we, nor our allies, are willing to do any such thing; so it all should work out ok.

Simply put, regardless of how much you lust for it; Russia will not invade a NATO member state. Period.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 16:46:44

AgentR11 wrote:I
Javelin is sexy.
Its also the wrong system for Ukraine…..you're just nibbling in a bottomless pit of tanks.


Russian supposedly had an unlimited supply of attack helicopters too, but after the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan blew a few hundred out of the sky with US surface to air missiles suddenly Russia didn't want to invade Afghanistan any more.

No doubt the loss of a few hundred Russian tanks (and their crews) in Ukraine to Javelins would eventually make an impression even on someone as pig-headed as Putin.

Lucky for the Russians obama is still dithering over whether or not to supply javelins to the Ukrainian defense forces.

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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Cottager » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 16:50:38

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Pavel Felgenhauer, about the challenges and difficulties faced by the armed forces of Russia, why the main threat to the country is concentrated in Central Asia and why Russian politicians regularly threaten to destroy the United States.

- Last spring we saw a "polite people" - it turned out that the Russian armed forces, which will not expect anything good, can suddenly look modern and efficient. Is it really?

- Not to be confused weapons, equipment and discipline. Polite, soldiers carried out the orders can be armed with bows and clubs.
At the same time, armed with modern weapons and forces can be horde. This is not directly related things.

Yes, Russia has a well-trained units. A certain level of discipline in our armed forces have always maintained - not to say that they had ever turned to the crowd looting bandits (though this too happened in history). In this case, the armed forces as a whole remain backward and unprepared for modern war. Adopted a program of rearmament until 2020, which means that the current armed forces - not modern. There were serious attempts to modernize, but a great success so far failed to achieve that show the fighting in the Donets Basin, where the fighting as they were 50 years ago.

This does not mean that it is impossible to fight - you can, especially if your opponent is exactly the same. But with modern armed forces of the West is better not to face on the battlefield, otherwise remain horns and legs.
- What is the percentage of modernized parts of the Russian armed forces, as they "polite people"?

- "Friendly people" - it's just a riot that took Simferopol airport. They are disciplined and very well prepared. Yes, they are strikingly different from the Cossacks and robbers in rainbow camouflage: before, during the Chechen wars, our special forces looked different, because people bought their equipment and form themselves. In Crimea, were all dressed in the same type of "figure" (a type of camouflage. - Approx. Ed.), And therefore it was immediately clear who they are coming from. But the weapons and equipment of the soldiers still did not meet modern standards. They are not the weapons, not the armor, not the means of communication.

There is nothing fundamentally changed. We do not make a modern small arms, we do normal rounds, artillery shells do not have long - shoot old. No normal mass sniper rifle, and no snipers. There are a handful of specialists in the FSB - they have a foreign guns and bullets. Something managed to buy abroad, but also partly in very small quantities.

Our tanks - rubbish, everyone knows that, and so create brand new tanks - platform "Armata". Soviet tank at a dead end, it is difficult to accept for many reasons, but it is all well understood. Our tanks are willing to buy only those countries where there are no problems with fertility.
In the Donbas with that and the other side is fighting our technique and burns like a candle.

Our aircraft can not effectively support the infantry units - in any case, at night and in bad weather. We have a problem with modern engines Jets, growing backlog. With avionics problems, we have not done a good modern radar. Radars are established in different countries, but the components are produced in one place - in the United States. For example, there is the item for active phased antenna array, it only makes Americans Raytheon. We bought it, but no longer work. And with its manufacturer does not come out.

Have you heard about the GPS-sighting? Management of artillery fire comes with the computer by GPS-coordinates of targets that tracked the drone in the sky. I've seen it personally on the Lebanese border during the 2006 war, when Israel beat battery of south Lebanon. In this way, manages to maintain a high-precision conventional cheap fire projectiles. But in Russia, this is not, and we do not know how. And yet we can not use GPS so vbuhali a lot of money in the GLONASS. In general, serious problems.

Although we launched the production of drones otvёrtochnoe "Outpost" on Israeli license, in fact it IAI Searcher twenty years ago.
With their help, we can somehow coordinate fire rocket launchers. This made it possible to crush the end of August 2014 the southern group of Ukrainian troops under Ilovaiskaya and Saur-grave. But in general, these drones have a million countries, and they were already in Georgia during the 2008 war. That is, in fact, we have armed forces at the level of Pakistan. Of course, they have nuclear weapons, missiles, submarines. However, how many of them really suitable in the case of nuclear war, no one really knows, but will not specifically check.

All serious modernization in Russian history relied on Western technology, access to which will now be difficult. It is unclear Will something seriously to achieve. In the military sphere, and so prices are rising all the time, and now starts strong inflation. For the same money will be able to buy up to five times less than planned, but some things can not be done at all. Every year, Russia made military purchases in the United States on a couple of billion dollars. It is not only complete, but also high-precision machines. The whole world goes on 3D-printing precision parts and complex profile of powder metals. And we still have digital machines for learn to use and everything to finish Uncle Vasya with a file. Well, how, then, there will be modern armed forces? They are not modern. See it soon.

There is a famous saying of Churchill: "Russia is not as strong as you are afraid, and not as weak as you hope." Not because it was bad with the armed forces before, it's not so good now.
- And who started the process of modernization in the Russian army - the disgraced Anatoly Serdyukov and Sergei Shoigu?

- The armed forces has upgraded the former Chief of General Staff Nikolai Makarov. Serdyukov did not climb at all these things, but was willing to carry out reforms and made it possible Makarov act radically. After coming Shoigu in 2012 began a rollback. No new reforms; partially dismantle what they did. When Shoigu situation has become much worse than it was when Serdyukov.

When Serdyukov took up the most important - for military education. Military education in Russia - something quite dreadful. And when you have of poorly educated officers obtained poorly educated generals, there is big trouble. Russia generally very provincial country situated outside the world of progress, and especially in the armed forces. The Russian military were isolated More from tsarist times. They frankly do not understand what modern war. They know that there is a new technical tricks, gadgets, but missed all the revolution in military affairs. They still taught by the Second World War, it is still an example of everything.

- However, the Crimean events called hybrid example of modern war.

- It's fiction, horror story. War in the Crimea was not, because no one has provided armed resistance. Of course, there were certain logistical problems, but they were quite solved, since a number of the fleet was. Operations to enhance the protection of the fleet have been prepared in advance, there secretly caught up additional forces, although there already and was the Marines. When you do not resist, it is always easier.
- Is it possible to now a large-scale clash in the spirit of 50 years ago?

- Of course, it is possible. Just usually when there is a collision of a modern army with outdated, it looks like the opposition of the Spaniards with the Indians. Or Zulu spears against the British with machine guns. Large masses are insolvent: during the invasion of Iraq in 2003, a huge army of Saddam Hussein was completely useless is not suitable. Yes, old and dusty army can fight defensive battles in small groups, as did good "Hezbollah" during the Second Lebanon War. But sitting in the defense can not be defeated. And when you, as an in-dash, beating high-precision weapons and not fall on the area, and where it is necessary, you can not attack. It is very fast demoralizing. It is impossible to sustain, people just throw technique and running.
Threat
- In December, has published a new Russian military doctrine. What can be judged on it?

- The military doctrine - a document indirect action. When in 1993 wrote a liberal constitution, there was added a norm that should be in Russia's military doctrine and that it should be open document. And once she opened document, its no one takes seriously - the doctrine always treated disregard. I once asked one of the chief of the General Staff, as he uses this doctrine. He replied that he did not use, because the paper is too rigid.

Military doctrine - is, in fact, a great press release, the reflection of some real things in a distorting mirror. But in the real planning it is not used. There are documents of direct action - a defense plan and plan the use of the Armed Forces. Previously, they can not be even had to mention, you can now. But to talk about them is meaningless because they have the highest level of secrecy - OB.

Talk to the military doctrine of the plans - it's like to talk about Russia's constitution. We have a wonderful constitution, there are lots of things to write.
So what?

- Is it possible to clash with NATO in the current environment?

- Yes, we are ready, otherwise why is conducted rearmament program? On it kind of money thrown. Chief of General Staff Valery Gerasimov said openly that our armed forces are preparing for World War II. It is almost inevitable.
- What time?

- I think, by the year 2025. Rearmament program was launched with the calculation that after 2020 need to be prepared to either World War II or to a series of major regional conflicts - the so-called resource wars.

Our policy is based on the fact that work Malthusian trap - Malthusian trap. It will be a terrible world crisis, lack of resources and, therefore, the role of Russia will increase, but with it will grow and risks. The whole world can attack us, to take away our natural resources and a large area in the Arctic. And we will try to somehow reflect this attack from all sides.

The main enemy - of course, the United States. To a lesser extent - China. Should be built perimeter defense, which includes Ukraine. The loss of Ukraine - a breakthrough perimeter, we are totally defenseless in the face of mortal danger. Therefore, it is necessary to keep the Ukraine by any means.

The main problem, which is now agree to all the military - is that the events in Ukraine began a very bad time, we did not have time to rearm. Would be better if it happened in 2018-2020, respectively.
- As NATO respond to this?

- Now we see quite obvious threat. A couple of weeks ago there was a meeting of ministers of defense, and they received the program: will prepare for war with Russia. Voted in all countries, including Hungary and Greece. There are serious specific measures. Baltic NATO seems the most dangerous area, therefore created a European Rapid Reaction Corps, with its headquarters in Poland.

While Europeans are willing to put 30,000 soldiers, and these parts are scattered throughout the nation-states, but the headquarters will be permanent. More will create six additional headquarters along the eastern edge of NATO, in order to coordinate with local reinforcements arriving forces. At the peak of operations in Afghanistan was 140 thousand soldiers here with the Americans can be the same.

To collect the forces needed a month and a half. We are talking about high alert: the time was considered a peaceful, readiness was low, now vice versa. War - is a complex logistical and technological problems, and the armed forces are different from a taxi through the application. Ordered and it arrived five minutes later - they do not work. We are talking about the day, days, weeks and months. Nomination of large numbers of people requires a lot of effort and training. Bring the armed forces to a high degree of combat readiness - it is very expensive and long hold on it is also impossible.
- If a part of the Russian army and NATO will face, whether it is similar to the Spanish opposition to the Indians?

- Yes I Am. Different countries have different levels of armaments and training, but together they act more or less trained. This is the essence of NATO - to educate all one command language, standardized gauges and equipment. Of course, the European powers are weaker US, but to act with them as they can. In case of conflict in the Baltic States to join NATO and the neutral Swedes with the Finns.

Of course, Americans are superior to our forces in the conventional sense. Without the use of nuclear weapons there are no chances.
- And can there be a conflict with China? Million Chinese soldiers on the border with Cupid - it's just pugalka?

- It's not like the Chinese were preparing for such. All their major study done in case of confrontation with the United States in the case of the capture of Taiwan. With us, it makes no sense to fight. In Soviet times, the Far East was a real defense system and a lot of troops, and now they are there almost none. Chinese threat has not been canceled, but it looks unlikely.

- LIH threaten Russia?

- In Central Asia, a potentially volatile situation, especially in Uzbekistan. It is unclear what will happen when the die President Islam Karimov, who has no heirs. Poor, horribly crushed population, much of which - the Muslims. In Soviet times, Islam pretty cool everywhere suppressed, but in the Ferghana Valley, he stayed. There is the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) - Salafi militants, absolute hardcore. Their bases were located in Afghanistan, but in 2001 the Americans came and drove them to Waziristan, and all this time they're acting. In the summer of 2014 was an attack on Karachi Airport - this is just the IMU.

They are well-trained, hard-nosed Islamic militants, US drone strikes past. IMU even acknowledged the Caliph of the Islamic state, and he appointed the head of its emir in Central Asia. That is, the IMU - is, in fact, the separation of LIH. So far, however, LIH pulls people from all over the world in their conflict in the Middle East, but I do not think it will come in the IMU. Deal in Afghanistan, they also will not leave it Pashtuns, but enter in Uzbekistan if it begins to destabilize, they are ready. In Uzbekistan, the Islamic revolution can occur, as in Egypt. But Uzbekistan is different from Egypt in that there is no Egyptian army - it's big and serious power. And the Uzbek army is not big and not serious. Islamists kill it fails.

Destabilization in Central Asia - is the most real and substantial threats from. Tens of millions of refugees, loss of Baikonur and strategic sites such as landfill "Sary-Shagan" and the object "window" on the Panj whose loss is irreparable. This cessation of manned spaceflight. We cease to be a space power. If Uzbekistan will fall, and we will be tied to the Ukraine, we will face a big problem with a war on two fronts.
- Recently in New York, was detained three Russian spies. What does this say about the work of the Russian intelligence?

- Nothing unusual. This happens from time to time, but when there was a period of friendship with the West, and we and they deal with such matters behind the scenes. Now the whole litter goes to the public.

- What about the Russian nuclear weapons? Last year at the Frunze Embankment in Moscow has opened a new National Center for State defense management. Our politicians regularly threaten to wipe the United States to the ground. And at the same time, recently learned that fell last satellite detection system launches of ballistic missiles.

- Nuclear power we seem to be there, but no one will check whether they are corroded. There were times when the rocket simply denied.

In the early warning system - a system of missile warning - recently invested large sums of money to bring to life. Changed the entire computer network: it can not be modernized bit by bit, only to re-create. The system was created in 1970 on the basis of Soviet copies of IBM-mainframe tions, became fully operational mode in the 1980s. The entry is on punched cards, and was previously harvested ten scenarios of nuclear war. Really very old system - of course, it had to be changed, and so have launched our Skynet. All secret; it is not known how long it was prepared. Used likely foreign components. Let's see how well all this will work, - replacement fraught with failures and errors.

The fact that we no longer have satellite tier means that less time to make a decision about the evacuation. Americans have 45-50 minutes to make a decision about the evacuation of senior management. They sit down in a helicopter and then use the flying command post. We, too, for the evacuation helicopters, but in Moscow problems "vozdushki": anywhere between tall buildings spanned fiber. On Frunze Embankment made platform on the water, where there are no interfering cables flight.

In the summer should start one satellite to replace. If you lose it, then make a new will be very difficult, because everything was created on the foreign components. In recent years, serious satellites were made on French platforms. 90% of the - foreign.

- Dmitry Rogozin said directly that the US can destroy up to 90% of our nuclear potential in just a couple of hours. Is this true?

- The US has not yet worked through Russia as an enemy, but now they have considered this as a great joy. US military and defense industry is advantageous to have as an enemy of Russia instead igil. Why igil against nuclear submarines? Russia as an enemy of China is also much better: it has a nuclear triad weaker than ours. Those generals who now heads the US armed forces, began to serve back in the Cold War. They were all clear and familiar.

A threat of a nuclear war is nothing new. This is a tactic of the Cold War, the whole thing has established terms of which have simply forgotten. This brinkmanship - «brinkmanship." The term coined More John Foster Dulles, who in 1950 was Secretary of State under Eisenhower. One side is threatening nuclear war, and since this is MAD (mutual assured destruction - mutual assured destruction), the other side will give way to pull back from the brink of conflict.

Master of this policy has been a great friend of Putin Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who is very cool with this balancing our obegoril during the "Yom Kippur War" in the Middle East in 1973. He explained a few days the Soviet leadership that his boss Richard Nixon - a crazy anti-communist, constantly drunk whiskey (which, in general, it is true) and is ready to push the nuclear button. It worked: we retreated significantly lost its influence in the Middle East.

During the Cold War, this reception is actively used by the West, because in the conventional sense, they were weaker than the Warsaw Pact, and nuclear - exceeded. Now the opposite is true. In the conventional sense, Russia is much weaker - both qualitatively and quantitatively. Therefore, we can only nuclear deterrence. Use of nuclear weapons can not be otherwise from Russia will remain just ashes, and so we will threaten to use, prompting the West to make concessions and compromises to avoid the worst.

This time-tested tactic - as well as the proxy-war. What is now in the Donbass - is proxy-war like Vietnam, Afghanistan and the Middle East conflict. The Cold War is back, back and tactics of the Cold War. Especially since there are people who began service in 1970 and all of this is well remembered. Putin.
- And what will happen in Ukraine?

- Will unstable truce, and then again worsening in late spring or early summer. Now you need to quickly break all parties. During the winter campaign ends, then start the summer campaign. Russia's goal is clear - to regain control over Ukraine. Russia is not interested in Debaltseve and Kiev. And while the goal is not reached, the conflict will continue. Proxy-war and can last for decades. Nobody will allow Ukraine to be a Western ally to the US and German tanks and missiles stood at Poltava.

Foreign peacekeepers in the Donbass not be, it is clear for a long time, and the current Russian Ukrainian regime would not let go. In addition, they are not fundamentally different from the OSCE observers, they have a mandate only to defend themselves, and that they prefer to give up, so reliable: most likely survive. Our peacekeepers fought in 2008, but in principle, the peacekeepers are not fighting and patrolling the demilitarized zone. They are not forced to the world, but only watched.
- What events in Ukraine affect Russian call?

- The crisis of 2008 has solved the problem with the staffing of the US armed forces and our military is now hoped that due to unemployment will be easier to hire contractors. People desperate because of the crisis, will be recorded on the war. So it will or not - I do not know, the more that we have not created a normal system of recruitment and did not fully understand what it is. Therefore, the contract we have big problems and high turnover. So yes, while in Ukraine can not do without conscripts, who corresponded as contract retroactively. Length of service now will not increase, although it is difficult to say what will be the next to fall. It all depends on the situation.
- In general, the world would not be?

- Not yet. Peaceful resolution of the conflict is not yet visible.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:14:37

AgentR11 wrote:1) Putin *DOES* want a cold war


Well if he wants a cold war, then we have to respond to it, or he'll keep doing more things until he gets it. We'll just respond tit for tat, and at a lag giving PLENTY of room between escalation steps and our reactionary response, because honestly -- we are the good guys.

2) Your fantasy about a hot war needs to go away. A hot war that places the survival of Russia at risk, ENDS THE WORLD. But, about the only way that can happen is if we respond by invading Russia, in response to activity in a non-nato country. I do not think we, nor our allies, are willing to do any such thing; so it all should work out ok.

Simply put, regardless of how much you lust for it; Russia will not invade a NATO member state. Period.


Just because I'm ringin' the church bell warning of where something is headed does not mean I WANT it to go there.

If we can elect Jeb Bush in time, then it won't go there. He will prevent it peacefully -- whereas disinterested, disengaged Obama has failed. And Hillary may be able to handle it too, but O sure hasn't.

And you SAY they won't invade the Baltics -- but Agent, I'm lookin at serious nato discussion to where they think Russia may really try it. NATO is planning for how to handle hybrid, non-conventional war, THE WHOLE ISSUE is that it appears to be an article 5 loophole. Which is retarded. Should have been a strong US president to say "there IS NO little green men article 5 loopholes when it comes to a nato state."

And lastly -- Putin won't ever shoot any nukes off. He does not want to be President of Wasteland.

And they've got no right to ever use any nukes, either, if Russia is never invaded. IF THEY WANT A cold war, then we may in fact have some proxy wars just like we did in the last cold war. Vietnam. Korea. Afghanistan. Gamesmanship with them across the globe. But that DOES NOT mean setting nukes off.

Nobody is ever gonna invade Russia, for goodness sake. What we may do though, is defend against Putin's expansion, if that's what he really intends to do.

We've been over all these issues a million times. The fact is that the global order says you can't invade places and annex them, those are the rules. If Putin keeps doing it, the West may or may not begin vigorously responding. If you want isolationist policy and to recede from global alliances and leadership, that's a valid point of view, and you can vote Bernie Sanders or Rand Paul in the primaries.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:30:51

Guys, look -- I am just WARNING about Putin. I do not WANT him to start a war with us, I want to see that PREVENTED.

I just want a Ronald Reagan in there handling it, that's all.

Jeb Bush and the old Bush team will be able to handle Putin, stand up but safely so. Jeb Bush IS RIGHT, HE SAYS it's weakness that invites war!

Even Radon said one time if we can find a Reagan, that things would work out better. Think about it guys, remember way back (I was a kid then) how Reagan didn't actually start any wars with Russia. Whereas things were worse under Jimmy Carter, and Reagan was right and it was peace through strength. He waved the flag, he was pro America, and he was tough -- but a happy warrior, and negotiated with Gorby. His presidency was peaceful. There didn't need to be any wars, because he was in command and nobody thought he was weak enough to go after him in the first place.

We need these old cold warrior Republicans back, and that's who Bush has on his team. Only they can handle / and hopefully work with -- through mutual respect -- Vladimir Putin.

Bush can handle it:

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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:39:45

Other than him still thinking China and Russia are adversaries, and him failing to note the roll out of new nuclear ballistic missiles; I thin the above is spot-on.

The thing about China/Russia; is that from a Chinese POV; Russia has already surrendered to China, graciously, and China is now essentially what the US was to Japan in the '50s. The 'stans are a bit related to this; China values stability in its neighborhood above all else; and they are building/have built massive E/W inland trade routes that travel both through Russia and further south through the 'stan's. No one is going to war there because it'll upset the gravy train, while gaining nothing of value. So, China, center of the world, has its neighborhood stitched up all snug and comfy; has the Russians providing a solid baseline of energy imports throughout the remainder of the 21st century; and even has the Russians participating in joint Naval exercises with them in their ocean.

So, do not expect any war between Russia and China. Do not expect any occupation of Siberia from China. Do expect Chinese practices and social norms to begin peculating into Russian policy. They won't stop being Russian of course; but I do suspect the 21st century will bring us some very interesting varieties of Russian, Putin just being the starter course.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:50:41

Plantagenet wrote:No doubt the loss of a few hundred Russian tanks (and their crews) in Ukraine to Javelins would eventually make an impression even on someone as pig-headed as Putin.

Lucky for the Russians obama is still dithering over whether or not to supply javelins to the Ukrainian defense forces.


I saw a Democratic congressman from Oregon or Washington state (forget his name) on tv. He was saying since Putin says that Russia is not involved in Ukraine, then they've got no standing to protest Ukrainians getting javelin missiles.

Speaking for myself, this whole thing is sad. Nobody wants American weapons to blow up Russian tank crews. But it's also sad to see Ukrainian forces just get wiped out, hundreds of them, thousands. Soviet Russia's old war in Afghanistan was sad, too -- those conscripts didn't want to be fighting over there. And they did the same trick they do now, back then the kremlin would tell military families their loved ones died in a training exercise or something, rather than tell them the truth.

The kremlin controlled all media. There was a blackout about the truth of the Afghanistan War, and the casualties. The Russian people got tired of that war though, that was their Vietnam. Those hind helicopters -- wicked cool, by the way -- used to hover over villages like a wolfpack and just tear the place up. They were so well armored. Nothing could take them down. Until the mujahadeen got those missiles from the CIA.

And that all blew back on us, of course, arming that mujahadeen. But it was the cold war. Which means proxy wars, and containing the other side's expansion if at all possible, and they did the same with us.

So with those missiles, all the hind helicpters started getting shot down. USSR pulled out not long after that. I saw a documentary about all this, it was actually mostly about the hind helicopter.

Speaking for myself, we don't want to see conflict with Russia. But what can we do. What can we do if their government is working against our own country, so much. Iran getting those new missiles, for example. And our president getting tricked and fooled by Putin, all the time.

It is what it is. In the end -- we believe in our cause, we're not the ones that lost the cold war, so we're better off in a new cold war than they are. A lot of them don't believe in Putin's vision. And that's a good thing -- I honestly think their heart really is not in this, it's just Putin doing it all, but the Russian people have changed so much since the USSR. They have access to world media now, and they travel. I think they'll stop it, before it gets too bad. Putin will actually back down and cut some kind of deal or at least cool it down a bit, if he is actually stood up to for real.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:57:36, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Withnail » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:51:17

Cottager wrote:https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fehorussia.com%2Fnew%2Fnode%2F10564&edit-text=

Pavel Felgenhauer, about the challenges and difficulties faced by the armed forces of Russia, why the main threat to the country is concentrated in Central Asia and why Russian politicians regularly threaten to destroy the United States.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Felgenhauer

Felgenhauer was born in 1951 in Moscow, the Soviet Union; graduated from Moscow State University as a biologist[2] in 1975. He served as researcher and a low level analyst before being demoted in 1990 for stealing from procurements...

Felgenhauer initially described retaking South Ossetia from Georgia as a Russian logistical nightmare, and claimed that Russia would face a prolonged and difficult war against Georgia's "quite good military".[3] After the Russian Army routed the Georgian Army in five days, Felgenhauer claimed that Russia's invasion was pre-planned.[4] Felgenhauer's view of the 2008 South Ossetia War was criticised by Gordon Hahn, a senior researcher at the Monterey Terrorism Research Monterey and Education Program, in a Russia related mailing list where he stated that "Pavel Felgenhauer’s conspiracy theory has several major holes in it."[5]



Cottager, you are a euro maidan freak. we already have one of those on this forum, so your services are not required.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Withnail » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 17:55:44

Plantagenet wrote:No doubt the loss of a few hundred Russian tanks (and their crews) in Ukraine to Javelins would eventually make an impression even on someone as pig-headed as Putin.

Lucky for the Russians obama is still dithering over whether or not to supply javelins to the Ukrainian defense forces.



Ukraine already has anti tank missiles.

The trouble in this case is that the Javelins cost more than the tanks. And are highly saleable, and will be sold to the highest bidder.

Ukraine will no doubt use a few in combat for appearance's sake.

Georgia had piles of American weapons too. Didn't help them.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:01:41

Sixstrings wrote:we are the good guys.


Don't care. I only care that we are the NOT-DEAD guys. The crazies ringing the alarm bells as you say, seem awfully gleeful. There isn't a hint of seriousness or rational judgement to be found amongst any of them.

Pinning an enemy to the ground who has only one possible counter, and then acting like they won't use that counter, simply because the price seems too high to us, is INSANE.

There is a difference between containment and attempting to cripple and destroy. Up till now, our policy was aimed at crippling and destroying Russia; even if unintentional, the result is absolutely clear. Our moves in Syria and the Black Sea would have stripped Russia of its ability to maintain commerce with anyone other than the EU; allowing the EU to dictate price to Russia at just barely above break even; while clawing back anything over break even by means of predatory exports. Unfortunately, those moves both failed, and harshly informed our enemy of what we were content to do to them, just for our convenience or amusement.

There is no rational reason for Russia to consider the US and EU as anything other than as crazed predators. Thus they back away, cautiously, trying to build modest barriers between them and us; trying to get us to wall ourselves off from them as much as possible. Putin acts in very restrained, measured steps; just barely enough to achieve the strategic objective; never using anything other than words to assuage Ego by overreaction.

So the trick, from my perspective, is how shall we go about our comfortable, well fed, luxurious lives in the West, pampered by all manner of civility and pleasantness while not causing the bear in the woods to go nuts, charge into the kitchen, and tear up the place. Yes, we'll go get the rifle, and put the bear down; but I don't want to eat the bear; and I'd be happier if the bear never got riled up enough to rampage in the kitchen.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:08:46

Withnail wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:No doubt the loss of a few hundred Russian tanks (and their crews) in Ukraine to Javelins would eventually make an impression even on someone as pig-headed as Putin.

Lucky for the Russians obama is still dithering over whether or not to supply javelins to the Ukrainian defense forces.



Ukraine already has anti tank missiles.


Yes, crappy old stuff left over from the USSR that often doesn't work.

The Javelins actually work. And they will not only destroy Russian tanks and their crews---they can destroy Russian armored troop transports with all on board, they can destroy checkpoints and the soldiers manning them along the roads, the Javelins can destroy fortified position in buildings, etc. etc.

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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:10:11

edit: wrong video, can't find a video for it but there was sparring at the UN

Russia and US Spar Over Global Crises at UN Meeting

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov implicitly accused the United States on Monday of violating U.N. principles by bombing Syria, occupying Iraq "under false pretenses" and manipulating a Security Council mandate to destroy and create chaos in Libya.

U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power implicitly criticized Russia for blocking Security Council action against the Syrian government and accused Moscow of training, arming and fighting alongside separatists who have seized Ukrainian territory.

They traded accusations during a ministerial meeting of the U.N. Security Council to assess the operation of the United Nations as it nears its 70th anniversary. The meeting was organized by China and was the first-ever chaired by a Chinese foreign minister.

Lavrov was clearly pointing at the United States without naming it when he singled out the current bombing of Syria, where the U.S. is targeting extremists from the Islamic State group, the U.S. occupation of Iraq starting in 2003, and the NATO-led uprising in Libya in 2011 strongly backed by the Obama administration.

"This is a result of attempts to dominate global affairs, to rule over all, everywhere, to use military force unilaterally to push one's own progress, one's own interests," Lavrov said.

The Russian minister also implicitly accused the U.S. of using "unsavory methods" such as mass pressure on sovereign states to promote Washington's agenda, and promoting regime change including "open support for the unconstitutional state coup in Ukraine a year ago." And he implicitly accused the U.S. of trying to turn the Security Council into a body which would "rubber stamp" its decisions.

...

Power, pointing clearly at Russia — a close ally of Syria which has blocked council action aimed at pressuring President Bashar Assad to end the four-year conflict — decried the escalating death toll and the Syrian government siege tactics that have taken "a devastating toll on civilians, the people the U.N. Charter is supposed to protect."

She accused Russia of violating the Charter, which demands that all 193 member states respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other nations, by its support for separatists in Ukraine which has cost some 5,700 lives and displaced more than 1.7 million Ukrainians.

Instead of locking up political opponents in Syria and elsewhere, "or making ridiculous allegations in pointing fingers at foreign powers," Power said governments should respect human rights and freedoms which are the foundation for peace, security and prosperity.

Lithuania's Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius accused Moscow of trying to redraw Europe's borders by violence and force.

"What we are seeing in Europe today ... is Russia's military might being used in violation of the sovereign rights of states, and in pursuit of a neo-imperial ambition which has no place in the 21st century," he said.


China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi said "antiquated thinking, such as the Cold War mentality and zero-sum games, should have long been thrown into the trash bin of history."

He called for greater international cooperation, greater democracy and the rule of law.

"No country in the world is entitled to impose its own will on others or to topple the legitimate government of other countries," Wang said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/russia-us-spar-global-crises-meeting-29166615


Good grief, what a hoot, especially China there at the end saying the world needs more democracy. :lol:

That's hilarious. That's like the Ukraine resolution Russia put forth, that called for both sides to follow the Minsk 2 agreement, then Russia just uses that agreement as some kind of cover to take more territory while trying to tell the Ukrainians they can't shoot back.

And, Russia is bickering about Syria now.. and us trying to fight ISIS.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:21:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Withnail » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:15:15

Plantagenet wrote:
Withnail wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:No doubt the loss of a few hundred Russian tanks (and their crews) in Ukraine to Javelins would eventually make an impression even on someone as pig-headed as Putin.

Lucky for the Russians obama is still dithering over whether or not to supply javelins to the Ukrainian defense forces.



Ukraine already has anti tank missiles.


Yes, crappy old stuff left over from the USSR that often doesn't work.

The Javelins actually work. And they will not only destroy Russian tanks and their crews---they can destroy Russian armored troop transports with all on board, they can destroy checkpoints and the soldiers manning them along the roads, the Javelins can destroy fortified position in buildings, etc. etc.

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If you muss up my hair, Pootie, I'll call up Angela Merkel and ask her for additional sanctions.


Yes Javelins work. So do Kornets.

So does artillery. So do tank guns. There's not exactly a shortage of weapons in Ukraine.

Your magic missiles are not the answer and Russia can easily escalate with similar missiles of its own or worse.

You seem to be as much of a middle aged US weapons masturbator as the pathetic loser Six Strings, which is saying something.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:19:38

Sixstrings wrote:He was saying since Putin says that Russia is not involved in Ukraine, then they've got no standing to protest Ukrainians getting javelin missiles.


You have proof of Putin "protesting" such? I have him saying it'd be unhelpful, would not alter the balance on the battlefield, and would violate the Minsk agreements; both of which are simple fact. Personally, I think he'd love to trade 50-100 T72's for an unused, all nicely wrapped up Javelin system. Especially if those tanks become rusted out hulks in Ukraine instead of some Russian warehouse. We put those Javelins in the hands of the Ukraine army before its rebuilt proper, and he'll have several, gift wrapped before a year is out.

Nobody wants American weapons to blow up Russian tank crews.


Speak for yourself. There are plenty of Americans that want to blow up Russians. That said, I suspect the tank crews are locals mostly. At its core, a tank is just another piece of heavy machinery; and NAF locals should be expected to have substantial operational experience driving and repairing such. These are ALL relics; they aren't high tech, they're firing plain ole tank shells and other regular old tanks. There are no high tech T90s in Ukraine. Armada's will not come to Ukraine when available. That would be putting Russia in the high-cost bucket.

So, no, no awesome Russian tank crews. 1980's and 1990's garbage in the hands of tractor drivers; shooting up the other guy's 1980's garbage being driven by an ipad draftee, or if to poor for an ipad, an obamaphone.! lolol. Not to say there aren't Russians or even in my opinion, Russian units in Ukraine; but rather, these are the command and control, and special force units that are causing NAF to fight as an army at a much higher level of performance and professionalism than is the Ukraine army.

New toys will not fix the unprofessional army of Ukraine.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Withnail » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:25:21

AgentR11 wrote:
Speak for yourself. There are plenty of Americans that want to blow up Russians. That said, I suspect the tank crews are locals mostly. At its core, a tank is just another piece of heavy machinery; and NAF locals should be expected to have substantial operational experience driving and repairing such. These are ALL relics; they aren't high tech, they're firing plain ole tank shells and other regular old tanks. There are no high tech T90s in Ukraine. Armada's will not come to Ukraine when available. That would be putting Russia in the high-cost bucket.

So, no, no awesome Russian tank crews. 1980's and 1990's garbage in the hands of tractor drivers; shooting up the other guy's 1980's garbage being driven by an ipad draftee, or if to poor for an ipad, an obamaphone.! lolol. Not to say there aren't Russians or even in my opinion, Russian units in Ukraine; but rather, these are the command and control, and special force units that are causing NAF to fight as an army at a much higher level of performance and professionalism than is the Ukraine army.

New toys will not fix the unprofessional army of Ukraine.



The battles aren't even fought with tanks anyway. They are mainly fought with artillery bombardment.

Tanks are only used when the enemy is already thought to be seriously weakened.

AgentR11 wrote: We put those Javelins in the hands of the Ukraine army before its rebuilt proper, and he'll have several, gift wrapped before a year is out.



They'll look nice next to Putin's new American anti mortar radar system.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:36:12

Withnail wrote:Tanks are only used when the enemy is already thought to be seriously weakened.


You don't understand.

The tanks are just one possible target. The Javelins are very capable weapons against all sorts of targets. The javelins can take out tanks, troop carriers, helicopters, low flying airplanes, military check points, armored vehicles, fortified positions, etc. etc.

[smilie=XXbazooka.gif] [smilie=qtank.gif]

Get it now?
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Withnail » Mon 23 Feb 2015, 18:43:11

Plantagenet wrote:
Withnail wrote:Tanks are only used when the enemy is already thought to be seriously weakened.


You don't understand.

The tanks are just one possible target. The Javelins are very capable weapons against all sorts of targets. The javelins can take out tanks, troop carriers, helicopters, low flying airplanes, military check points, armored vehicles, fortified positions, etc. etc.

[smilie=XXbazooka.gif] [smilie=qtank.gif]

Get it now?


Yes i'm fully aware they can take out lots of targets. However getting close enough to the targets to fire a Javelin is going to be dangerous, expensive and actually pointless, since you could hit them with artillery anyway from several times the range, with far more firepower.

Ukraine has missiles already that can do this with a longer range than the Javelin.

You have absolutely no idea about warfare.

You're just an adolescent masturbating over your GI Joe dolls.

It's all fantasy anyway. No sane person is going to give these clowns Javelins.
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Re: Putin says "Russian military is unmatchable"

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 24 Feb 2015, 01:41:34

Ash Carter warns Russia on nukes

“U.S. responses must make clear to Russia that if it does not return to compliance, our responses will make them less secure than they are today.”

Ash Carter has quietly thrown down the gauntlet in a lingering dispute with Russia: If President Vladimir Putin continues to violate the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the U.S. could respond in kind.

“The range of options we should look at from the Defense Department could include active defenses to counter intermediate-range ground-launched cruise missiles; counter-force capabilities to prevent intermediate-range ground-launched cruise missile attacks; and countervailing strike capabilities to enhance U.S. or allied forces,” Carter told senators in little-noticed written answers to follow-up questions from his confirmation hearing.

The defense secretary’s bottom line: “U.S. responses must make clear to Russia that if it does not return to compliance, our responses will make them less secure than they are today.”

Obama administration officials believe Russia began testing what they call its illegal cruise missile as long ago as 2008, predating the current crisis in Europe over Moscow’s military incursion into Ukraine. And they have accused Russia of violating the 1987 INF treaty under which the U.S. and then-Soviet Union agreed to pull back land-based missiles deployed around Europe that many feared could escalate a crisis too quickly for either side to control.

Now, with Putin still pressing into Ukraine, some members of Congress are even more eager to push back on what they see as Russia’s violations of the INF treaty.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/ash-carter-russia-vladimir-putin-defense-115421.html
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