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Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 19:44:21

Another case where the actual power plant engineers know more about what is going on than do the "greenies". I know from reading comments in my IEEE pubs that wood and biomass were dirtier than coal, I was able to easily confirm this.

The advantages of wood:

1) Although both coal and wood are renewable, wood renews in a much faster cycle (decades) while coal takes millions of years to fossilize. Still, the peat being deposited in our wetlands will one day become coal, unless it is dug up and dried and burned as biomass.

The disadvantages of wood:

1) Wood is much dirtier than coal. http://www.pfpi.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/PFPI-Biomass-is-the-New-Coal-April-2-2014.pdf

Comparison of permits from modern coal, biomass, and gas plants shows that a even the “cleanest” biomass plants can emit > 150% the nitrogen oxides, > 600% the volatile organic compounds, > 190% the particulate matter, and > 125% the carbon monoxide of a coal plant per megawatt-hour, although coal produces more sulfur dioxide (SO2). Emissions from a biomass plant exceed those from a natural gas plant by more than 800% for every major pollutant.


2) Burning wood causes Climate Change at a higher rate than burning coal. (same document as above)

Biomass power plants are also a danger to the climate, emitting nearly 50 percent more CO2 per megawatt generated than the next biggest carbon polluter, coal. Emissions of CO2 from biomass burning can theoretically be offset over time, but such offsets typically take decades to fully compensate for the CO2 rapidly injected into the atmosphere during plant operation.


Additionally, in the mistaken belief that burning wood is better for the environment that other fuels, wood and biomass plants are less regulated than coal plants. Some "biomass" plants actually burn construction and demolition debris, which emits uncontrolled amounts of HAPs (hazardous air pollutants) and more toxic heavy metals than does coal. The EPA allows this on the theory that debris represents a "minor" fuel and most of the actual fuel is "clean" biomass. There is no monitoring of the fuel sources, a plant licensed to burn mostly biomass may burn mostly polluting debris with no danger of being fined.

Because of this perfect storm of lax regulation and regulatory rollbacks, biomass power plants marketed as “clean” to host communities are increasingly likely to emit toxic compounds like dioxins; heavy metals including lead, arsenic, and mercury; and even emerging contaminants, like phthalates, which are found in the “waste-derived” fuel products that are being approved under new EPA rules. Permissive emission standards for biomass plants mean that these pollutants can be emitted at higher levels than allowed from actual waste incinerators. As such, it is not a stretch to conclude that biomass plants being permitted throughout the country combine some of the worst emissions characteristics of coal-fired power plants and waste incinerators, all the while professing to be clean and green.


If you are thinking of small scale wood burning, here in Silicon Valley we have our dirtiest air during the Winter cold when people are burning wood for space heat. I step outside and sometimes choke - and they declare "Spare the Air" days when burning wood is banned unless it is the only heat in a residence.

Biomass power plants are disproportionately polluting not just because of their low efficiency (in converting heat to electrical output) and high emissions inherent in burning wood for energy, but also because the bioenergy industry exploits and actually depends on important loopholes in the Clean Air Act and its enforcement, loopholes that make bioenergy far more polluting than it would be if it were regulated like fossil fuels. Our review of 88 air permits of biomass power plants tabulated information on facility size, fuel use, pollution control technology, and allowable emissions. Some of the facility permits were issued under the Prevention of Significant Deterioration (PSD) program in the Clean Air Act, which requires “major sources” of pollution to reduce emissions by conducting a the Best Available Control Technology (BACT) analysis, and also requires facilities to conduct air quality modeling that assesses whether they will violate EPA’s air quality standards and threaten health.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby DesuMaiden » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 20:07:40

I would still prefer a wood-based economy than a coal-based economy. Wood is renewable. Coal is not.
History repeats itself. Just everytime with different characters and players.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 20:40:25

I understand that. But what you are saying is that you prefer the absolute dirtiest alternative.

I lived and worked on my Grandfather's farm as a kid. His cooking and heating fuel was wood and his light was kerosene up until the early 1960's.

Wood is labor intensive to cut, carry, split, season, carry, and burn. Then the wood ashes are toxic waste, water running through wood ash produces lye, which my grandmother used to make a harsh soap that would take your skin off. Meanwhile burning wood produces soot, smoke, and the ever present danger of a chimney fire, which is increased by using a more efficient stove that cools the effluents. They had a Summer kitchen under a seperate roof, because you don't want to burn wood to cook in 90+ degree weather and Summer humidity.

You cannot have a "wood-based economy" either. It was possible in the 1700's and earlier, but you cannot have metals, plastics, electronics, medicine, or mechanized agriculture with wood. You can't have an Amish lifestyle either - even simple blacksmithing with charcoal can only shape iron made by coal and coke.

With wood, you can have a stone age economy, and a hunter-gatherer existence.

I sense that you are thinking of the post-oil World. The problem is that those 7.3 Billion humans are already here. In their struggle to survive, they complete the destruction of the eco-system, and humanity dies. The youngest, fittest, healthiest, and meanest survive - by eating everybody else. It happened throughout Europe in the Dark Ages, and it happens every time the glaciers cover the globe. During the last Glacial Age, your species the Cro-Magnons ate the Neanderthals into extinction.

There is no human survival on Earth, is my belief. Once those roving bands of cannibals from the cities discover your little doomstead, they eat you, your family, your pets, your supplies, and your Permaculture plot, then burn the remains - leaving scorched earth and ashes.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 21:06:51

KaiserJeep wrote:
There is no human survival on Earth, is my belief. Once those roving bands of cannibals from the cities discover your little doomstead, they eat you, your family, your pets, your supplies, and your Permaculture plot, then burn the remains - leaving scorched earth and ashes.

I don't see it that way. In any conflict other then nuclear war one side has survivors. Your roving band will come from the city where they have had no real practice with guns and will come up against doomers that are waiting for them with the guns they have practiced with extensively. They will become compost in the pile while any useful thing they brought with them will now belong to the doomer that shot them.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby basil_hayden » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 21:11:31

DesuMaiden wrote:
basil_hayden wrote:Nate Hagens pointed out (on the oil drum I believe) that our forests would last about 6 months if the population began burning wood for heat to replace fossil fuels including coal.

My state was almost completely clear cut until about 100 years ago, it's grown back quite a bit since, along with all the prey and predators.
That's the main advantage of coal - it lets most of your ecology live on. If you like trees, then you're a fan of fossil fuels, because without it there'd be none these days.

Desu - why do you keep dancing around the heart of the matter? There's too many people, not enough resources, and the resources we have are being used less and less diversely, leading to an anticipated bottleneck or at a minimum some severe upward pricing pressure. It's easy to see the train coming down the tracks, but we're not sure when it arrives.

How did he calculate that we would only have 6 months worth of wood if we started burning wood to replace coal and fossil fuels? I think we have more wood than that.


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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 21:52:45

vtsnowedin wrote:-snip-
I don't see it that way. In any conflict other then nuclear war one side has survivors. Your roving band will come from the city where they have had no real practice with guns and will come up against doomers that are waiting for them with the guns they have practiced with extensively. They will become compost in the pile while any useful thing they brought with them will now belong to the doomer that shot them.


There is no conflict. The mass extinction event started centuries ago and is still accelerating. During the asteroid impact 63 million years ago, 90% of all species and 90% of the population of all surviving species perished in the 1300 years following the impact.

====> The present rate of species extinction is faster than that. The mere presence of 7.3 billion humans in an ecology that could support at most 1 billion is the most serious and least survivable event compared to the previous FIVE mass extinction events recorded in the fossil record.

The Earth passed the 1 billion mark around 1805. We are a little more than two centuries into an event that I personally believe will take 3-4 centuries to complete. Excess humans are killing the Earth at 3X the rate from that dinosaur-killer asteroid.


Just because you don't notice the "event" happening, does not mean it is not real. The Earth I remember from 50 years ago was cleaner, prettier, safer, and a heck of a lot less crowded.

The great herbivore dinosaurs perished following the impact, after the plants died. The great raptors and carnivores followed when their food went away. Humans will die from ecological damage when too many species are dead and the system crashes. The only difference between the dinosaurs and us is that Mother Nature killed them - or Random Chance if you prefer. The human extinction is suicide.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 12 Jan 2015, 22:40:34

DesuMaiden wrote:I would still prefer a wood-based economy than a coal-based economy. Wood is renewable. Coal is not.


I would prefer to be 6' 2" , 22, and stinking wealthy.

Sure coal is rebewable, you just gotta wait a few million years or more.

Here's and idea, take a trip down to Haiti and show 'me how it's done.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby Smurfs1976 » Tue 13 Jan 2015, 07:53:14

I tried burning coal (brown coal briquettes) in the wood heater once.

I will never, ever do that again. Truly horrible stuff in every way. A ridiculous amount of ash produced when compared to wood and it absolutely stinks outside.

I know that it's possible to burn coal cleanly. But personally I'll stick to wood since I clearly don't have the right equipment to make good use of coal.
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Re: Coal vs Wood Compare the Advantages/Disadvantages

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 13 Jan 2015, 09:18:08

Smurfs1976 wrote:I tried burning coal (brown coal briquettes) in the wood heater once.

I will never, ever do that again. Truly horrible stuff in every way. A ridiculous amount of ash produced when compared to wood and it absolutely stinks outside.

I know that it's possible to burn coal cleanly. But personally I'll stick to wood since I clearly don't have the right equipment to make good use of coal.

If you were out of wood and coal was available you would figure it out. Hopefully before you family freezes to death .
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