Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

How low cost oil drives economic growth

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby Gordianus » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 04:30:24

A very clear explanation.

http://online.barrons.com/articles/jeremy-grantham-u-s-stocks-can-gain-at-least-10-before-crash-1416334236

The epic spurt of growth that began for Europe and the U.S. around 1800 (before which global growth had been negligible for thousands of years), was fueled by coal and then oil. The driver of this growth was the massive gap between what the energy was worth in terms of horsepower and human power equivalents and the much lower cost of digging or drilling the fuels out of the ground. Just imagine, for example, that you had to cut your winter wood supply in a hurry and you had to choose between paying your local labor a respectable minimum wage of, say, $15 an hour or filling your empty chainsaw with a gallon of gas. One of my sons, a forester, tells me he could cut all day, eight to 12 hours, with a single gallon of gasoline and be at least 20 times faster than strong men with axes and saws, or a total of 160 to 240 man hours of labor. For one gallon! So for this task an estimate of value of $2,400 to $3,600 a gallon would be about right. But with gasoline at $3 a gallon we trade way down to trivial tasks with little labor equivalent value because we can, squandering the great potential value that oil has for really important jobs. That’s how we do it. We assume the oil or coal, our finite and amazing inheritance, is free and price it just at its extraction cost plus a profit margin. So at the important end of the spectrum gasoline or oil is worth, say, $3,000 a gallon and at the wasteful, trivial end is worth $3. This example used gasoline, an expensively processed part of a barrel of crude oil, but the same principle of a large gap between value and cost of course also applies to crude. Let’s work with that assumption for a moment. In 1998 the price of oil hit a 20-year low of below $14 a barrel and I assume the average cost was about $10 given there was still quite a bit of very cheap Middle Eastern oil in the mix. But the value might well have been as high as $2502 in which case a “massive surplus” – or beneficial gap between cost and value – of $240 would have existed, or 24 times the cost of extraction.

This surplus goes in part to governments as taxes, in some oil-producing countries virtually carrying the budget on its back. It goes as pay to oil workers and their support infrastructure. It goes as profits to oil companies and from them out to dividends. But above all, its greatest benefit is in those uses that have a far higher value than the cost of the fuel, as is the case with my son’s chainsaw. The great size of this surplus, first for coal and then oil and gas, drove the industrial revolution.
Gordianus
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon 14 Oct 2013, 14:22:19

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby DesuMaiden » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 07:04:40

Conversely, the high cost of oil causes the economy to contract.
History repeats itself. Just everytime with different characters and players.
DesuMaiden
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon 06 Oct 2014, 16:00:31

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby GHung » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:45:56

It occurs to me that oil/coal, and energy in a larger sense, gradually replaced precious metals as the underlying basis (foundation) of currencies which inevitably led to fiat currencies and unbridled credit/debt. Oil and coal are a one-time-through collateral; once burned, forever gone. The surplus of roles available to members of society; the intermediaries that Greer speaks of in his latest series; are utterly reliant upon ever-increasing extraction/reduction of said energy sources. When these once-through energy sources become constrained and more costly, the discretionary/intermediary side of the econonmy deflates; the value of their 'labor' decreases.

With a gross surplus of energy came a gross surplus of essentially non-productive occupations; entire segments of economies that really don't produce anything useful in a survival sense. A reduction in overall energy availability translates directly into a reduction is occupations born of, and reliant upon, surpluses.

We're going to have a whole lot of people looking for something to do, most with few meaningful skills.. Seems we're already there. Better develop skills that actually produce things people really need. Historically, prostitution, bar tending/distilling, and farming come to mind :(
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 16:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 03:30:09

More generally, it's low-cost energy that does it, or even more generally, low-cost *anything*.

There's nothing special about oil in this context except that it's a convenient raw material for making combustible liquid vehicle fuels, high energy density and all.
User avatar
lpetrich
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu 22 Jun 2006, 03:00:00

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 09:19:36

Ghung - "We're going to have a whole lot of people looking for something to do, most with few meaningful skills". Not just them: going to include a lot of highly skilled engineers, managers etc. from any industry/business that consumes a lot of energy. We've already seen what happened to those good salaries in the manufacturing and auto industries when foreign operations became more efficient at utilizing the available energy then we were. Difficult to imagine that won't continue to be the rule as we stumble down the peak oil path.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11397
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby DesuMaiden » Mon 05 Jan 2015, 22:21:14

The end of economic growth is coming sooner than you think. I say the end of growth is RIGHT NOW. When world oil production peaks, growth will no longer be possible because growth is predicated on increasing energy availability. Without increasing energy availability there can be NO growth. Peak oil means the end of increasing energy availability, and with that comes the end of growth.
History repeats itself. Just everytime with different characters and players.
DesuMaiden
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon 06 Oct 2014, 16:00:31

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby DesuMaiden » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 12:55:48

pstarr wrote:You are correct Desu (uzala?)

Desu, you may not have the appropriate economic lingo, but you seem to understand. Good for you.

Further economic growth is impossible without increased oil production. During the last 8 years, world oil production has essentially peaked, and we are now on a bumpy plateau of world oil production. I believe this year we will fall off the bumpy plateau and into the abyss where oil production will start to decline every year.

The decline of world oil production will be no later than 2020. Conventional oil production already peaked in 2005 and 2006, so unconventional oil is the only reason our oil production hasn't declined yet. After falling off the bumpy plateau, oil production will continuously decline year after year. Yet the demand for oil will continue to increase. The gap between demand and supply will cause the price of oil to reach much higher prices than we were ever accustomed to paying.

The recent decline in oil prices is only temporary, and it is not because we actually found more oil. The recent decreases in price is due to artificial means of lowering the oil price, and the price of oil will soon go back to were it was before. And perhaps even increase to a new high because once we leave the bumpy plateau and start to decline oil production, oil prices will increase dramatically.

World oil discoveries peaked in 1964, and it is no surprise that about 40 years later, world oil production peaked. The peak of discovery is usually followed by a peak of production about 40 to 50 decades later. The same happened in the USA. The peak of discoveries of USA oil happened in 1930, and 40 years later, the peak of production of oil occurred in the USA in 1970.
History repeats itself. Just everytime with different characters and players.
DesuMaiden
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon 06 Oct 2014, 16:00:31

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 13:08:04

DesuMaiden wrote:
pstarr wrote:You are correct Desu (uzala?)

Desu, you may not have the appropriate economic lingo, but you seem to understand. Good for you.

Further economic growth is impossible without increased oil production.

See the problem with such simplistic pronouncements is they are easily proved wrong with simplistic arguments, i.e.:
Wrong, energy intensity continues to fall:

Image
http://www.mssresearch.org/?q=node/624
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 13:48:44

Now if you had said, as OF2 did, that the economy is not based on making things anymore but instead on renting radio spectrum (cell phone service) you could have made an argument. But blanket pronouncements "We are now in a deflationary spiral." mean less than nothing- if you'll forgive me for saying. True, US core inflation is below the "target" of 2% but not nearly in the deflation category even if you include energy.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby DesuMaiden » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 14:51:44

pstarr wrote:We are now in a deflationary spiral. These are new times.

That's what happens when our economy starts to decline in size.
History repeats itself. Just everytime with different characters and players.
DesuMaiden
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon 06 Oct 2014, 16:00:31

Re: How low cost oil drives economic growth

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 15:00:30

Again, show some evidence.

Here from BEA:
Real gross domestic product -- the value of the production of goods and services in the United
States, adjusted for price changes -- increased at an annual rate of 5.0 percent in the third quarter of
2014, according to the "third" estimate released by the Bureau of Economic Analysis. In the second
quarter, real GDP increased 4.6 percent.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac


Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 240 guests