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Oil via rail

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 05 Jan 2014, 18:36:36

Oil by rail? B.C. and Alberta report done, not yet public

A task force report that examines the idea of transporting crude oil from the Alberta oilsands to the B.C. coast via rail has been handed in to the British Columbia and Alberta governments.

The joint provincial working group was announced by premiers Christy Clark and Alison Redford in July to develop recommendations related to energy exports and the opening of new export markets for products like bitumen for the two provinces, including pipeline and rail transport.

"Rail can be considered a viable alternative to pipeline movement based on costs of transport," the terms of reference for the group states. "If pipelines are not developed, rail will step into the void to deliver bitumen to the West Coast."

The provincial working group was mandated to submit a report to both leaders by the end of December.

An Alberta government official did not respond to a question about the completion or release of the report, while an official in Clark's office said the report is complete but that no date has been set for a public release.


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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 07 Jan 2014, 19:03:30

I still find it utterly amazing how some folks who think they understand the big picture really don’t. This from NBC that has more than enough resources to get it right but apparent lacks the ability to do so. Pay attention to what they don’t point out: the southern leg of Keystone XL has been completed and will be delivering Alberta oil directly to Texas refineries this month. But how can that be…they haven’t got the border crossing permit? Easy: they’ll continue to ship 600,000 bopd that has been coming across the border in the Keystone Pipeline. The other Keystone Pipeline...not the Keystone XL Pipeline. This line has been in operation since Oct 2010. This oil will be shipped to the EXISTING sections of KXL (the 98% of the KXL Pipeline that didn’t require federal permits to be built) that will deliver it to the Texas refineries. And no: they are not going to ship a lot of oil to Texas by rail. They are going to ship it across the border from Alberta to offloading terminals on the US side where the oil can be taken by a variety of other pipeline systems. These terminals have been built or expanded during the last year or so.

All it takes is a bit of common sense, which, as they say, isn’t so common. The Cushing, OK to Texas pipeline throughput has already been expanded by 400,000 bopd in addition to the new southern leg of KXL. And construction is underway to expand that volume by at least 800,000 bopd within two years. There are existing pipelines that cross the US/Canadian border that are being expanded as well as existing pipelines in the US being expanded that are capable of receiving rail oil.

So from NBC: Canadian oil rides south even without Keystone pipeline

“The equivalent of hundreds of thousands of barrels of oil a day will soon be moving from western Canada into the U.S.—even if the controversial Keystone XL Pipeline is never built.”

{FYI: there are currently 2.4 million bopd of oil already moving from Canada to the US. A minor oversight on the part of NBC}

“Canada's railroads, Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd and larger Canadian National Railway Co both report expanded oil shipments this year and both expect demand to continue to grow. Canadian Pacific told investors it expects shipments of 85,000 to 90,000 car loads by the end of the year. A spokesman for Canadian National said the railroad expects to see 60,000 carloads this year, double last year's level.

As the U.S. contemplates the merit of the stalled Keystone pipeline project, which would take Canadian oil to U.S. Gulf Coast refineries, rail companies in Canada have been moving quickly to add capacity in five major projects. By the end of next year, rail loading capacity could grow enough to handle 700,000 barrels of crude a day from the oil sands region in western Canada, according to IHS data. Trains currently carry just 150,000 barrels from there, and more than 450,000 barrels a day could be riding the rails by the end of next year.”

{And once more: the Keystone XL is not stalled but is scheduled to begin delivering Alberta oil to Texas refineries on 22 January. The only stalled portion of KXL is the few miles that will physically cross the border}

"It's important because access to the Gulf Coast is really critical for oil sands producers, but there are other options to get there. The supply will come on at a similar rate in the longer-term because we think other pipeline options and/or rail will get the crude there," said Jackie Forrest, IHS director of global oil.

Keystone is designed to carry 830,000 barrels per day. If the pipeline is not built, IHS expects to see 700,000 barrels moving by rail by 2016. Rail transport could peak at 500,000 to 600,000 if TransCanada's Keystone and another Enbridge pipeline project, which does not need State Department approval, are put into operation, because of expected growth of oil sands production.

Analysts say oil sands production has been slowed by the lack of transport but rail is helping to change that. "The pipelines that are out there have regularly been on allocation. It's like an over-subscription of oil, and we know the Canadian government has been trying to actively get a pipeline built to the west but they've so far been unable because there's resistance by Native groups," said John Kilduff of Again Capital. "Now, they're looking east—to a pipeline that would transport it to the East Coast."

{So the oil sands production has been slowed by the lack of transport. But there was enough transport available for more oil to be shipped to the US during 2013 than ever before in history}

The cost of shipping oil in the U.S. by rail is about $4 to $5 more expensive per barrel than by pipeline, and shipping oil by rail from the Canadian oil sands to the Gulf Coast would be $7 to $8 more expensive per barrel, Lipow said. But Lipow said the capacity for rail shipment out of western Canada is rising quickly and the numbers keep getting bigger. "My number is 550,000 barrels a day between now and the end of 2014," he said.

In the U.S., rail traffic has also increased dramatically as a way to get land-locked crude out of production areas that have inadequate pipeline service. Lipow said in the second quarter of 2013, 109,000 car loads of crude were loaded by class one railroads in the U.S. In 2011, the second quarter shipments were 12,000 and in 2009, there were just 2,500 second quarter car loads.

{Now think about the numbers they just offered: 150,000 bopd moving out of Canada by rail and 109,000 bopd moving by rail in the US: so exactly where is that difference (15 million bo per year) going? Maybe getting dumped from Canadian railcars into pipelines on the US side of the border. And when they increase the Canadian rail shipments to 200 million bo per year is it going into all those US tank cars that don’t exist today or are they going into the existing pipeline systems that move oil at half the cost of US rail?}

Just last week, Exxon Mobil told analysts it is looking into the construction of a rail terminal in Edmonton to transport its oil sands output. Exxon is partnering with Imperial Oil Ltd on the Kearl project, currently producing 100,000 barrels per day and expected to grow to 220,000 by 2015 and max out at 345,000 barrels a day by 2020. "But, as would be prudent, we are looking at other options, including evaluating a project to build a rail terminal in Edmonton and then move some of that crude out of there into the Lower 48 by rail. And we're in the process of evaluating that opportunity and we'll have more to say on that in the future," Rosenthal told analysts after the company reported earnings. "We're very fortunate in that we have a very good logistics optimization opportunity and network and a lot of avenues for us. But we are actively working on all of the alternatives that are available to us to move that crude into market and get the maximum value for those molecules."

{Again notice all the chatter is about expanding oil rail transport out of Canada…not one word about expanding oil rail transport in the US}

The fate of the controversial pipeline lies at the State Department, which is determining whether the pipeline serves U.S. interests or hurts the environment. A final environmental study on climate change impact is awaited, and some industry officials expect it by spring. It would then go to eight other federal agencies for a 90-day comment period.

{No…the fate of the Keystone XL Pipeline system does not rest in the hands of the State Department…just those few miles of the pipeline that crosses the border. The remaining 1,700 miles of the pipeline do not require fed approval}

The stretch of Keystone pipeline, which is opposed by environmentalists, would send oil from Alberta, through Montana, across South Dakota and Nebraska, to the Cushing extension in Kansas and then south into the southern leg of the Keystone and on to the Gulf Coast refining area.

{While environmentalists may be opposed to the sections of KXL that will go through Montana, S Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas these sections have been approved and are under construction. The section through Nebraska had to be rerouted but the governor approved the new route more than 6 months ago}

"The State Department is trying to evaluate whether the Keystone XL Pipeline is going to materially affect greenhouse gas emissions. Now the pipeline by itself, running some pumps is not creating greenhouse gases," said Lipow, adding the same cannot be said for the train transport.

{IOW shipping the oil across the border by rail is, in the opinion of the State dept, creating more GHG than if they allow the border crossing section of KXL to be built. They may not have a timeline to make the decision but they seem to be telegraphing what they’ll eventually decide IMHO}

Kilduff said the way that the heavy bitumen, produced from the oil sands, is processed with natural gas is a main objection for environmentalists. "That's the crude's carbon kicker," he said.

{IOW words their objection is not about the transport mode but the production process itself. Unfortunately some have convinced themselves that not building the border crossing section of KXL with inhibit the production process. Given the record amount of oil sands production we have today obviously they’ve misunderstood the situation}

Refineries in the Gulf Coast and California currently refine oil from the oil sands, and Forrest said China could ultimately be able to handle a large amount of sands production given its aggressive plans to double refining capacity by 2030.

{And if you wonder how oil sands production has been getting to CA it’s been doing so through one of the other 6 pipelines crossing the US/Canadian border as well as by rail transport}
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby Synapsid » Tue 07 Jan 2014, 21:29:23

ROCKMAN,

These turkeys are ignoring Washington State! 44% of the Alberta oil that comes into the Vancouver area of Canada via the TransMountain pipeline is diverted to refineries in NW Washington before (hee hee) reaching Canadian termini.

Kinder Morgan, which owns the TransMountain pipeline, is applying to build a second pipeline in the existing right of way, doubling capacity to greater than Keystone XL's would be. The knives are out, but Kinder Morgan has been putting a lot of energy into talking to and working with all affected parties, so maybe there's a chance it will be built. Don't know if it would include diversion south of the border, though. If not, the oil would be shipped to California and Asia, judging by current practice. The resulting increase in earnings would act to boost production in the oil sands, I guess.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 08 Jan 2014, 09:54:50

Syn - Yep...I've noticed even with all the chatter about moving oil to the west coast they pretty much ignore what has already been happening. I still fall back on the basic logic: when there are $trillions in profit potential solutions will be found. And there's a continuous flow of efforts to do just that. And the quickest way around some of the hurdles is to expand along existing pipeline ROW's and rail lines.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Wed 08 Jan 2014, 18:44:17

I suppose I should spend some time explaining why I think that Rockman is well maybe not wrong, but not right. The XL pipeline is important.

First some context. As everybody knows tar sands oil sells at a very large discount compared to real oil. Last I checked it was selling for $60.00/barrel. The break-even point for this oil is said to be from $60 to $90 so the producers are not making any money right now, and some may even be loosing money. The province of Alberta is going broke, and investment is drying up, and yes I think this is a good thing.

Canadian politicians have decided that the discount is due to transportation bottle-necks. They would like to tripple oil sands production and if they have a problem now they are going to really have one in the future. The XL pipeline is one of seven proposed along with train transportation. Also it should be noted that the refineries in the Gulf of Mexico have been upgraded for sour oils and they would like something to refine. What Rockman seems to think is that even if the pipeline is not built the $30 dollar discount is enough that somebody will find a way to get the crude somewhere and pocket the difference.

There are several problems with this story. The first one is that not all of the discount is due to transportation issues.

http://tarsandssolutions.org/member-blogs/economists-call-out-canadian-politicians-for-fudging-tar-sands-facts

It just doesn’t make any sense,” Michal Moore, an energy economist at University of Calgary, told Postmedia News. “Anything that does not meet that quality standard is going to trade at a discount relative to Brent [Crude, a high-quality oil]. All that discount means is that any refinery owner is going to pay less for something they have to spend more time and energy to upgrade. That’s all it means.”

Warren Mabee, director of the Institute for Energy and Environmental policy at Queens University, said Canadian politicians’ discount claim “is kind of bogus,” because it is impossible to predict future prices.

The proof is in the pudding. Moore said that Canada already tests international markets when it pipes thousands of barrels of bitumen daily to the Gulf Coast through existing pipelines. There is no indication this oil is attracting higher prices because it is reaching tidal waters, he said. Moore added that it’s “just crackers” and “not realistic” to think that prices for high-quality oil like Brent Crude and West Texas Intermediate will be applied to lower quality tar sands crude.


There is definitely some truth to this as I don't think many other oils yield petcoke. Also given an price of $18. a barrel to transport in the Keystone, the quality discount may mean no change for Canada.

Other Canadians think the problem is that their tar only has one buyer, and well that buyer is the US, and the US is well not trusted by everybody. They want to send some to China.

Also since we are talking about a very large expansion, not just continuing, the expansion in transport infrastructure has to be more than huge. All these pipelines may still be not enough. Also given the very large subsidies the material enjoys from the government, it may be a long way from making Canada any money ever.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby Soplaaris » Thu 09 Jan 2014, 18:02:47

An interesting argument against the "tar sands discount price" meme is here FYI: http://www.robynallan.com/wp-content/up ... 2-2013.pdf
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 09 Jan 2014, 18:22:29

I think the issue is more about competition and the need to accept lower prices in order to be competitive.
The Alberta government explains it like this:

Example: Maya, a benchmark for heavy crude oil set in Mexico, is similar in quality to Alberta’s WCS, but it sells for $43 more than Alberta's bitumen (as of publication), at $101 per barrel in the market. Oil from Mexico has better access to international markets than landlocked Alberta. Alberta relies on existing pipelines and other transportation systems to get oil products to our largest customer, the United States. Current pipelines are
already at capacity. Rising oil production in Canada and the United States is also adding more pressure on those systems. Alberta’s oil is selling at a lower price in order to compete with other heavy crude oils that have the advantage of being closer to other markets. If Alberta’s heavy crude oil producers had more ways to send their products to the coastal lines and to new markets, they would receive the same price as Mexican heavy crude oil. Using today’s prices, that would mean $43 more dollars per barrel of crude oil.


I know that there are certain markets for heavy crude where the price has only a slight differential from Brent. Canadian heavy crude currently has no way of participating in those markets. Saudi heavy crude, as an example, sells for only a couple of dollars differential with Brent in China.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 09 Jan 2014, 18:35:26

K - “…producers are not making any money right now, and some may even be losing money. The province of Alberta is going broke, and investment is drying up, and yes I think this is a good thing.”

These sound more like opinions than facts. You have any links to back up matters? As far as Alberta going broke maybe they are and maybe they’re not. But that would have nothing to do with oil sands production. Last stat I could find was that Alberta received $4.5 BILLION in royalties during 2011. Given that production is higher today so should their royalty income.

As far as the oil sands producers going broke those bankrupt bastards had revenues of $49.3 BILLION of developing the oil sands in 2012. And they plowed $17.2 BILLION back into those projects during 2011. And then add the simple and undeniable fact that Canada exported more oil to the US in 2013 than ever before in history. That’s a lot of oil coming from money losing operations that have been conducted for years.

You’re certainly welcome to your own impressions but none of the FACTS I’ve found so far support your feelings. Maybe you can explain why companies are spending about $20 BILLION/YEAR on an effort that’s losing money. Are they just great humanitarians willing to waste $BILLIONS just to satisfy the wants of the US citizens? Again, I don’t for a minute assume you are a shill for the Canadian oil patch. But your statements would seem to be telling everyone not to worry about the oil sands…the play is almost dead and you can forget about the future potential of the “world’s dirtiest oil” doing any more damage to the planet. That’s a tale the oil patch would be thrilled for the world to believe while they are expanding development and developing new export markets while anticipating
better prices now that the Cushing choke point is being eliminated.

“What Rockman seems to think is that even if the pipeline is not built the $30 dollar discount is enough that somebody will find a way to get the crude somewhere and pocket the difference.” Again I don’t know how many times I’ll have to repeat myself: much of the KXL has been built with the remaining on schedule. In a few weeks the southern portion of KXL (600,000 bopd capacity) will be delivering oil sands production directly to Texas refineries. No…no one is pocketing the difference. The monies from those oil sales will go directly to the oil sands producers. All they have to do is pay the pipeline transport cost. They won’t have to sell at a discount to Midwest refiners that had them captured in Cushing. How much more might they get per bbl? I have no idea. But tens of $BILLION have been invested to make it a reality.

I’m not trying to hurt your feelings…honestly. But this refusal to acknowledge what has already happened truly is bizarre. As far as the words of those great economist all I know is that Canadian oil sands producers are selling every bbl they can produce and US refiners are buying every bbl they can. The producers are actively expanding their operations and more transport infrastructure expansion (both pipeline and rail) is under way. Regardless of your thoughts given the many tens of $BILLIONS in play the producers are happy and are making a profit, the refiners are happy and making a profit cracking that nasty stuff and the transport industry is satisfied there’s a profit to be made by expanding. And lastly the US consumer is very happy to fill up with every gallon of gasoline they can get from that dirtiest oil on the planet.

This is what’s happening regardless of how damaging it may prove to be to the planet. This is the reality of the moment. Ignoring it won’t make it go away.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Fri 10 Jan 2014, 13:40:46

Dear Rockman:

You want facts I give you facts. The reason I think Alberta is going broke is covered in these

2013 is the last year with data
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/07/alberta-budget-2013

Alberta budget 2013 marked by billions in deficit spending, service cuts


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-borrowing-4-3b-to-make-up-budget-shortfall-1.1301917

Alberta borrowing $4.3B to make up budget shortfall


Since the elephant in the room is expanding tar sands production. The obvious explanation is that Alberta is paying more than their getting back, they're shipping money.

http://albertaventure.com/2013/12/oil-sands-investment-transform-alberta/

This is a more thoughtful look, but Alberta is going broke.

Welcome to Alberta, 2013. No, we’re not making yellow tricycles, but the government’s approach to regulating, incenting and taxing the oil sands is having a similarly distortive effect. It’s why, despite their best efforts, companies like Imperial and Suncor can only dream of bringing a new oil sands project in on budget. It’s why, despite oil prices that are significantly higher than forecasts made just a few years ago, the government is in deficit. And it’s why a growing chorus of economists, academics and even the odd politician here and there believes it’s time for the Government of Alberta to do something about the situation. More specifically, they’d like to see steps taken that would slow development of the oil sands.


Investment falling

http://www.osler.com/NewsResources/Details.aspx?id=6729

Total investments in Alberta’s oil sands sector totaled $30 billion in 2012 before falling to about $1 billion in 2013, according to the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.


Now these guys claim that investment is coming back from asian sovereign wealth funds. But right now its low, or it was at the end of 2013. I did say investment is drying up, not that the oil companies are going broke.

As far as the material being less good valuable than crude oil I simply borrowed those opinions from the post. Still I know enough chemistry that it does seem plausible. I'm too lazy to look it up now. But it seems possible the at these materials could be very high molecular weight and 3 dimensional. You could add very low molecular wt materials, and produce a fluid with the same viscosity and density as a heavy oil, but you still won't have a lot of the right fractions and still need to do expensive upgrading. Given a 10% petcoke weight, it is entirely possible that leads to a 10% discount right off the bat.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 14:39:37

I'll admit that my sarcasm stems from the old joke: What's one of the most frightening phrases you'll ever hear: We're from the government and are here to help you. LOL. Yes...I'm oil patch. But that doesn't prevent me from mocking gov't BS even when it supports the industry. Read the story closely...especially between the lines...and see if you detect the wiggle room that I see.

Reuters - North American regulators should phase out the type of rail car involved in last July's deadly Lac-Megantic crash "sooner rather than later," Canadian investigators said on Thursday, urging the United States and Canada to impose tougher standards swiftly. Canada's Transportation Safety Board (TSB) and the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) issued three recommendations each, adding pressure on regulators to improve safety on the tracks after a series of oil-by-rail accidents in recent months. Neither the TSB nor the NTSB have the power to impose regulations, which only the U.S. and Canadian governments can put in place. (Note: my BS meter started beeping here). A long and gradual phase-out of older cars simply isn't good enough," TSB Chairwoman Wendy Tadros said at an Ottawa news conference. "The period in which that phase-out happens is something we're going to leave to regulators(beep...beep) but we're saying this should be happening sooner rather than later." Government officials in both countries said on Thursday they viewed the recommendations as a matter of urgency. The oil that exploded in the Lac-Megantic, Quebec, derailment, which caused an explosion and fire that killed 47 people, was carried in DOT-111 tanker cars that pre-dated tougher new safety standards for that type of car that were introduced in October 2011. While DOT-111 cars built since 2011 comply with new requirements, tens of thousands of older ones remain in service, and shipping oil by rail has grown exponentially as the industry discovers and extracts crude deposits in areas such as the Bakken region of North Dakota, where pipelines are scarce.... Raitt said in a statement she has instructed her officials to review the recommendations on an urgent basis. "We have continuously demonstrated our commitment to safety by implementing every one of the Transportation Safety Board's recommendations arising from the investigation at Lac-Megantic," she said. At the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Washington, Foxx did not specifically comment on the new recommendations, but said there was no "magic bullet" (beep...beep...beep) to improve the safety of shipping oil by rail. "We don't think this is a situation where one type of action (IOW the NTSB recommendation is not the only ours to follow) is going to solve this problem," Foxx said. "We've got a prevention focus, we've got a mitigation focus, we've got an emergency response focus." (IOW 2/3rds of the focus is on what to do AFTER an accident). Later, the U.S. Department of Transportation said in a statement that safety was its top priority and that it was already acting on the recommendations. "We agree that a comprehensive, all-of-the-above approach (heard that phrase often from the POTUS: do every thing possible especially if it keeps the oil flowing as fast as possible) is needed to ensure the safe transport of crude oil. DOT has already begun taking actions on these recommendations and other additional steps..." it said. "We intend to take additional steps in the coming days and weeks."

We'll see what "additional steps" and "days and weeks" eventually equate to in short order. But we're seeing record demand for fossil fuels due to the cold. So much demand that we're importing emergency supplies of refined products from half way round the world. What ever policy changes come into effect I doubt it will be put into effect (and immediately curtail oil production) when so many folks are so cold and paying high prices. We'll see if they have a similar small appetite for radical changes when summer motor fuel prices begin rising.

If my pessimism proves wrong I apologize. But until now it's all words and no action. Time will tell.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 15:39:43

The story from the recent derailment and fire in New Brunswick was that the two tank cars that were of the newer design seemed to sustain less damage than the older tank cars. However, we'll never see tank cars that could withstand any accident because they would be too heavy and carry too little oil to be economic. There will always be risks in carrying oil by train.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 18:01:34

Dear Soplaaris:

I finally got around to reading that post. Very good.

Yes Rockman your right. The oil companies are simply screwing the Canadians. It was obvious that the story told made no sense, but I guessed the cause wrong.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 18:42:46

K - Valid point but I wouldn't classify it as "screwing them". But I didn't consider the KSA was screwing us oil producers when the flooded the market in 1986 and knocked oil down to around $10/bbl. Nothing personal. It's just business. If the Canadians didn't like what they were getting paid for their oil there was a simple solution: stop selling it to us. And if all that Canadian crude hits the Gulf Coast and drives the price I get down? Such is life. I've never cared to hear anyone whine...including me. If one can't handle market swings he might want to reconsider his career path.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 27 Jan 2014, 00:48:23

I was talking to the Bagpiper at a Robbie Burns party, whose day job is with CP Rail. He says that CP is required, as a "common carrier", to take oil shipments, but they are not happy about it because they don't make enough money from them to justify the liability risk. They don't own the tank cars, so they have limited control over safety standards. He said the Lac Megantic disaster was raising more concern in the US rail industry than in Canada due to the much higher death and injury awards in US courts.

I think that even with safer tank cars, railroads can still be liable if their track maintenance, operating procedures, etc. are found to be deficient and contributing to an accident. If they have to spend a lot of money to improve their overall safety standards because of the liability risk of oil shipment, who pays for it? I don't know the legalities of "common carrier", can they make oil shippers pay extra or does the cost get spread over all shippers? In the latter case railroads may lose some business to trucking. Unlike the railroads, I don't remember the owners of the highways ever being held liable for poor maintenance contributing to accidents. (Ever tried to sue the gubmint for damage caused by potholes? :lol: )
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Mon 27 Jan 2014, 14:37:46

Rockman wrote:

Valid point but I wouldn't classify it as "screwing them". But I didn't consider the KSA was screwing us oil producers when the flooded the market in 1986 and knocked oil down to around $10/bbl.


I was actually being more specific about the screwing. I decided you were right about the tar sands not being as marginal as I thought. Basically, I still think that if you and I went to Alberta and started digging up tar sands and selling them for $60 a barrel we would be broke soon. I am guessing that the published break-even point for mining tar sands is correct. I also don't think that the Canadians are going to suddenly going to get more money for their crude if the xl pipeline is built. What the post by Soplaaris convinced me of was that the market is rigged.

Essentially, you are correct that the refineries would like more tar sands oil. The post basically pointed out that the refineries that buy the oil are the same companies that dig the oil. This led to the conclusion that the "market price" is not a real market price. Since only a few refineries can process the crude and only a few large companies dig the tar, the buyers are the sellers. (This is kind of the same royalty cutting trick Chesapeake tried when they sold produced the gas to their own pipeline company.) They simply decide what Alberta is going to get. Alberta, it appears, made a really dumb deal where they protected the diggers from losses by a royalty schedule that contains low royalties when the diggers lose money, but where the royalties go up a lot when the diggers make money. So there is a huge incentive to not "make money." Asking big companies not to take advantage of this is like asking beans not to make you fart. Frankly it is hard for me to believe that certain highly placed Albertans do not understand this and probably belong in jail. Still, the basic point that somebody is making money there is true.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 27 Jan 2014, 15:53:13

K – Maybe I missed it so can you name one refiner that has capex invested in producing the oil sands? And if every bbl of oil sands production was being bought cheap by a refiner that was also producing that oil it wouldn’t be Canadians getting screwed but the same company that’s producing the oil. The exception, of course, would be Alberta on their royalty cut. But as I understand it Alberta can take their royalty payment in kind and market it themselves. Not sure but I think they’ve actually been doing that to some degree. In fact, Alberta is now a partial owner of one such refinery:

Canada’s newest refining facility marked broke ground last September. The $5.7-billion Sturgeon project is a diesel-producing refinery that will be owned by Canadian Natural Resources and the Alberta government. Under a special arrangement, they hold a stake in the operation, will supply oil sands crude to it, and participate in its profits.

And consider this: “While politicians, environmentalists and Big Oil fight over the Keystone XL pipeline, the Bay Area's five refineries have quietly moved toward transporting controversial Canadian tar sands crude oil via another means: rail.

Phillips 66 in Rodeo already brings in trains filled with tar sands crude, and Chevron Richmond refines it. Tesoro Golden Eagle in Avon, near Martinez, wants to bring in the heavy crude -- which is refined from an unconventional petroleum deposit that has the texture and smell of tar mixed with sand -- by rail. And Benicia's Valero refinery hopes to bring in 70,000 barrels a day of North American crude by rail and spend $30 million to increase its infrastructure to handle it, according to investment reports, environmental studies and company profiles.”

Phillips 66 was spun from ConocoPhillips and isn’t a part of Chevron. They own no portion of the oil sands play. Nor does Tesoro. While Big Oil does have some vertical integration the great majority of US refiners don’t produce oil anywhere let along the oil sands.

But as I said I may have missed it: how many oil sands producers ship the stuff to their own refineries?
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Mon 27 Jan 2014, 17:38:11

Rockman:

Look, you think I'm making this up I'm not. I told you where I got it, from the post by Soplaaris. The economist who wrote it named four of them, just in Canada. Look it up yourself.

I really don't take these ideas too personally. I read stuff and throw it out around to see what others think. I actually kind of understand where you're coming from, I don't have direct experience in these things so I see what you think. But you're not convincing me, check the source and tell me why his ideas are wrong. I might be impressed.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 28 Jan 2014, 09:12:48

k - I went thru all the links you provided...thanks. And every one shows that the Alberta govt has made a positive net on the oil sands development. One could easily argue they might have made more with a different tax/royalty structure. But that different system might not have led to as much development and net income for Alberta. Whether Alberta is running a deficit or not isn't the fault of the oil sands. The oil sands have NETTED Alberta a good deal of income. But if they spend more than they take in that's their fault...not that of the oil sands producers.

BTW I stumbled through the Soplaaris blog. Found lots of opinions and almost no documented facts. Not saying their opinions seem valid or not and whether I agree with them or not. But they are opinions…not facts.
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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 28 Jan 2014, 20:03:39

Red Tape and Oil Explosions

As the United States produces more energy domestically, it has stressed the existing transportation infrastructure. The New York Times reports that 400,000 carloads of crude oil were transported by rail in 2013 – compared with just 9,500 in 2008. And the Association of American Railroad’s Annual Report of Hazardous Materials has estimated that crude-oil rail shipments grew by 400 percent since 2005. One-tenth of America’s oil travels by train, the Times notes.

Railways have strained to meet this skyrocketing demand, sometimes using older cars, such as the DOT-111 model tankers involved in the Casselton wreck, which are at higher risk for puncture and leaks. And in fact, the National Transportation Safety Board found in its preliminary report that all but two of the 20 cars that derailed in Casselton had been punctured.

The number of incidents have increased nationwide, as the New York Times notes:

Since March there have been no fewer than 10 large crude spills in the United States and Canada because of rail accidents. The number of gallons spilled in the United States last year, federal records show, far outpaced the total amount spilled by railroads from 1975 to 2012. . . .

While the safety record of railroads has improved in recent years, the surge in oil transportation has meant a spike in spill rates. From 1975 to 2012, federal records show, railroads spilled 800,000 gallons of crude oil. Last year alone, they spilled more than 1.15 million gallons, according to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration. And that figure does not include the Casselton spill, estimated at about 400,000 gallons.


nationalreview

Keystone opponents use rail constraints to urge pipeline’s rejection

Environmentalists are making an unusual argument in their attempt to stop the Keystone XL pipeline: that trains can’t move all the oil out of Canada.

Keystone supporters say Canada could just as easily transport the additional oil to the U.S. on trains — meaning building the pipeline won’t contribute to climate change because the oil’s coming out, pipeline or no.

Opponents have worked furiously to knock down that argument ahead of the U.S. State Department’s release of a key environmental impact statement in coming weeks, pointing to recent oil-train crashes to show railroads aren’t a good alternative.


New regulations proposed in the U.S. and Canada last week after a spate of oil-train accidents could restrict the ability of trains to carry more oil.

Environmentalists say the March analysis overestimates rail’s ability to make up for Keystone’s 830,000 barrels per day capacity. About 200,000 barrels a day of oil currently leaves Western Canada by rail, and daily volumes could reach more than 500,000 barrels by the end of the year, according to an estimate this month by Peters & Co., a Calgary-based investment bank.


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Re: Oil via rail

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 28 Jan 2014, 23:30:26

k - I went thru all the links you provided...thanks. And every one shows that the Alberta govt has made a positive net on the oil sands development. One could easily argue they might have made more with a different tax/royalty structure. But that different system might not have led to as much development and net income for Alberta. Whether Alberta is running a deficit or not isn't the fault of the oil sands. The oil sands have NETTED Alberta a good deal of income.


Yup and that was basically when the loonie was on par with the US dollar. Now that the loonie is trading at a 10 cent differential that means a considerable uplift for Cdn producers who sell their products for US dollars and pay for wages and services in canuck bucks. The oil sands just got 10% more economic in the space of a couple of months.
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