[Graeme]

BMW tried to bring a FCV to market in the past. But this time it is more likely because many other big players are entering the market. Toyota will definitely ramp up it's mass production as stated above.

[Graeme]

You didn't mention hydrogen fuel. In any case, read this link from page 19.

[Logic]

BMW tried to bring a FCV to market in the past. But this time it is more likely because many other big players are entering the market. Toyota will definitely ramp up it's mass production as stated above.

"Ramp up"??
Toyota is a long way from reaching the start of mass production.
They are planning to sell 3000 hand built Mirai by the end of 2017.

During that time about a million EVs will be sold worldwide, these will be more efficient and produce less CO2 as a fleet.

Hydrogen should stick with buses and fleet vehicles.

[sparky]

.
there is some misunderstanding about energy and usable medium
there is steam , compressed air , gravity fed hydro , electricity and even fuel
those are not energy they are distribution systems
energy is the first basic power feeding the distribution system , hydrogen is, or not ,an efficient transmission

it is not an energy source

[Tanada]

.
there is some misunderstanding about energy and usable medium
there is steam , compressed air , gravity fed hydro , electricity and even fuel
those are not energy they are distribution systems
energy is the first basic power feeding the distribution system , hydrogen is, or not ,an efficient transmission

it is not an energy source

This is an excellent point, one I have failed to communicate many times in the past. For some reason people can make the leap that crude oil, coal and natural gas are stored ancient sunshine buried in the ground, but when you tell them Hydrogen is a manufactured storage form of energy it does not compute. Really there are only three kinds of energy we have to work with on the Earth. Solar energy and all of its effects such as wind, wave and hydropower and stored as coal, oil and natural gas. Tidal which comes from having a large moon and the rotation of the Earth. And Fissionable metals formed in stellar supernovae between 13 Billion and 4.5 Billion years ago that was collected into the planetesimals that became the Earth.

Everything else unless I forgot something can be traced back to one of these three root energy sources. Even the Helium discussed over in the Peak Helium thread comes from radioactive decay deep within the earth as Alpha particles are ejected and accumulate in the same geological traps as crude oil and natural gas.

To make Hydrogen you have to go at some stage to one of those three energy forms, stored or active Solar, Tidal, or Fission. Unless their is some huge advantage to using the Hydrogen itself it is far more trouble than it is worth.

[Graeme]

You didn't mention hydrogen fuel. In any case, read this link from page 19.

Read the headline: "Organizations team to expand the hydrogen fuel infrastructure of the US" but there is no hydrogen fuel infrastructure in the US to expand.

Read the content in link:

A recent study from Sandia found that 18% of fueling stations in so called “high priority” areas of the country are capable of providing hydrogen fuel without making significant changes to the facilities themselves. These stations have the capability to distribute hydrogen, if they are provided with the right kind of pumps and storage technologies.

Here are the benefits of fuel cells. And this just published:

Single-catalyst water splitter produces clean-burning hydrogen 24/7

Stanford University scientists have invented a low-cost water splitter that uses a single catalyst to produce both hydrogen and oxygen gas 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

The device, described in a study published June 23 in Nature Communications, could provide a renewable source of clean-burning hydrogen fuel for transportation and industry.

'We have developed a low-voltage, single-catalyst water splitter that continuously generates hydrogen and oxygen for more than 200 hours, an exciting world-record performance,' said study co-author Yi Cui, an associate professor of materials science and engineering at Stanford and of photon science at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory.

In an engineering first, Cui and his colleagues used lithium-ion battery technology to create one low-cost catalyst that is capable of driving the entire water-splitting reaction.

And this. So we will converge on a tech to make H2 for virtually no cost and free solar.

[Graeme]

Tanada, So far BEVs are winning the environmental battle according to this study. But the battle is far from over for FCV.

GREET reveals that what matters most is how the electricity and hydrogen needed to power advanced vehicles are sourced. Using today’s electrical infrastructure, BEVs generate only 39 percent of the emissions produced by FCVs when hydrogen is separated from water using home electrolysis. Using the cleaner electrical grids already in place in California, BEVs win again by producing only 27 percent of the FCV’s greenhouse-gas emissions. Centralized mass production of hydrogen by steam reformation of natural gas helps FCVs, but they would still produce nearly twice the BEV’s emissions and consume about 50 percent more energy.

To achieve parity, major infrastructure improvements are required. The hope is that by 2050, renewable energy sources will provide the electricity to recharge BEVs and to produce FCV hydrogen via electrolysis for less environmental impact.

[sparky]

.
Graeme using electricity , a produced power medium to produce hydrogen , another power medium
is like dancing the moon walk , the illusion of moving forward while moving back .

[Graeme]

Seven Barriers To Alt-Fuel Vehicles: Can Hydrogen Fuel Cells Overcome Them?

1 – High first cost for vehicle: Now partially addressed: Toyota’s MegaFactory should jump-start experience curve effects, bringing sticker prices down

2 – On-board fuel storage: Addressed: Both the Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Tucson fuel-cell vehicles have adequate range and cargo space

3 – Safety and liability concerns: Addressed: Tucson Fuel Cell customers pump their own hydrogen in Canada; in Japan, attendants do the pumping – but then, they generally pump gasoline, too.

4 – High fueling cost compared to gasoline: (still a barrier)

5 – Limited fuel stations: (still a huge barrier)

6 – Improvements in the competition: Partially addressed: Toyota expects fuel-cell vehicles to have price premiums equivalent to those of its hybrid vehicles once economies of scale are fully realized

7 – Problems delivering cost-effective emissions reductions: Still a major barrier in the U.S.--but in Europe, where natural gas is three times as expensive, hydrogen from renewable-electricity electrolysis could soon be cost-competitive with hydrogen from natural gas reforming. (For a breakdown, see the “Renewable Hydrogen” tab at www.tinyurl.com/FCStats)

greencarreports

[Graeme]

US Energy Dept. Shakes Off Fuel Cell Doubters, Funds Two New Projects & $1 Million Prize

No matter how much you try to convince them that fuel cell electric vehicles just won’t fly, the US Department of Energy still somehow clings to the belief that there is a fuel cell in your future. The agency has just announced the second phase of two new cutting-edge fuel cell projects, and it is pushing ahead with a $1 million competition for the best small-scale, on-site hydrogen generation and refueling system.

The competition is open to hydrogen systems that run on either natural gas or electricity, but considering the bad news piling onto natural gas fracking just this week — low birth weight babies and infant mortality on top of yet more earthquake problems — we’re pulling for electricity.

cleantechnica

[Graeme]

BMW 5 Series GT Fuel Cell concept: German giant gambles on hydrogen power

Can hydrogen win out over electricity in the alternative fuel race? BMW’s 5 Series GT Fuel Cell concept says that it will – and it’s all down to a new breakthrough in refuelling technology.

BMW has been dabbling in hydrogen-powered cars for over 30 years. In more recent times however the spotlight has shifted towards battery technology, but now the tables are turning back again.

BMW is predicting the arrival of mass-production hydrogen cars within the next five years. They’re not the only manufacturer to be saying that. Intensive activity to install hydrogen refuelling networks in Japan, Korea and Germany underlines the German company’s belief, shared by Toyota and Honda, that battery power is about to be relegated to the status of a bit part player by hydrogen.

The new 5 Series GT Fuel Cell concept looks like a normal 5GT but under its skin are a fuel cell stack (co-developed with Toyota) and a new type of storage tank that super-cools the hydrogen to -220deg C. to make a 7.1kg hydrogen payload possible. That’s more than three times the amount able to be stored at present. It raises the 5GT’s potential range to over 430 miles and allows refuelling in five minutes for around £50 at today’s prices.

BMW’s test car had its rear wheels driven by a 199bhp electric motor through a new two-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission. There’s a small 1kWh battery over the rear axle. Though it’s in the early stages of development it drives well. Not only is it fast and smooth, it seems to handle and ride better than the regular 5GT.

getreading

[hvacman]

new type of storage tank that super-cools the hydrogen to -220deg C. to make a 7.1kg hydrogen payload possible. That’s more than three times the amount able to be stored at present. It raises the 5GT’s potential range to over 430 miles and allows refuelling in five minutes for around £50 at today’s prices.

So on top of all the other outrageous costs in an FCV and it's hydrogen-support-infrastructure, we're adding on-board micro-cryogenic refrigeration to keep the H2 liquified to give the FCV a little more range. To what lengths will we not go to try to duplicate the supposedly-imperative "fast-fuel-long-range" capability of BAU in the renewable future?

And what is powering that cryogenic refrigeration system to keep the H2 "supercool"? Electric power? Do you have to plug in your FCV at home? If so, how ironic! Or perhaps when it is parked, it uses a little H2 to fuel the FCV to run the refrigeration. The stuff is already so expensive..does this sound like a good plan that will drive the stake in the heart of EV technology that the article implies?

[Tikib]

Unless batteries move beyond Lithium ion I am not convinced that they can provide a better fuel source than hydrogen.

The problem with Lithium ion is that the batteries are just too expensive. All it does is move the energy cost to the manufacturing process.

Elon Musks main contention agaist hydrogen is the cost of transporting it but anyone who suggests a large transport infrastructure for hydrogen is an idiot. Instead you generate it in large quantities at the powerplant and get people to drive to it.

[Tanada]

Hydrogen is only an energy carrier, and one with a lousy energy density to boot. You get something like three times the energy density by using Ammonia and it does not have the leak problems hydrogen has, it already has a pipeline system in places and its not hard to make with electricity.

[Subjectivist]

Tanada ammonia transport fuel has the same problems and limitations as NG. While it may be freely abundant, it is a gas at normal pressures and temperatures (−33.34 °C boiling pt). That fact alone renders it practically useless given our current infrastructures. What piplelines? Do they go to Vermont? Or North Dakota? (two states with no gas piplines of any kind). It also means expensive compressors are necessary to refuel and maintain pressure for reasonable energy density compaction and storage

Ammonia liquifies at 114 psi, propane needs 206 psi to liquefy and lots of fork lifts and trucks run on that. Natural gas won't liquefy unless you chill it down very cold just like liquid oxygen.