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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 10 Jan 2016, 22:25:04

Newfie wrote:FWIW, I'm typing from an 1887 house, our "new" house as the old one, still occupied was much older. And crappier to boot, not historic, just old.

Perhaps your 99.9% is correct if you include the adobe and stick and cardboard and wattle houses so many live in. Don't know.


Missing my point. Has that 1887 house ever been remodeled or renovated? If you were at say, 30ft MSL at the ocean had risen 5ft since the house was built, would your next 50k project go to renovating that house, or would you sell to someone content to stay till water flooded the floor and then walk away, and take that 50k and use as part of new construction or even just buying existing at a higher elevation?

No one, or almost no one lives in a building that has been unchanged for 100+ years. There's always new roofs, rotten wood, new pipes, new electrical/comms... foundation work, or whatever.

Discount the folks living at sea level firght now, and consider big picture, structures at 20, 40, 50ft MSL. Folks living there right now are in denial about SLR; but after the level is +5ft; they won't be in denial, they'll be looking to adapt or flee; and they'll have plenty of time to do it.

SLR is glacially slow. It doesn't produce the kind of catastrophic, "OMG the city that was fine yesterday is flooded!" Other, more hidden pieces of climage change are much more problematic. From Cid's methane apocalpse all the way to changes in mid summer temps that kill the productivity of grain crops. How do you tell someone their loaf of bread costs $10 now because of... climate change????
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 10 Jan 2016, 23:03:42

Naw, I get your point. It's just that it takes time. And learning can be exceedingly sloooow.

For example, right now I'm working on a project where the client wants to put in some public safety type radios. Big project. Lots of redundancy. Bullet proof concrete shelters. Commercial power, generators, UPS. Yadda, yadda. All designed to meet their "resiliency standards." Great right? Except 6 of the sits are in the 100 year flood plain and at least one of them would have been completly underwater, over the roof, within the last 5years. And they are speced to be at ground level, not elevated. Sheesh!

Many people won't "get it" until their feet are wet. Some won't ever "get it."
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 10 Jan 2016, 23:09:38

Preston,

You also gotta remember you are talking to someone who will be living on a bot full time within the next two months. LOL. Admittedly it's not because of SLR, it's because of all the crap that's far more likely to bring us down before then, and because it's just a far nicer, more pleasant way to live. But it does kinda make SLR moot for me personally.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 10 Jan 2016, 23:24:08

AgentR11 wrote:
Newfie wrote:FWIW, I'm typing from an 1887 house, our "new" house as the old one, still occupied was much older. And crappier to boot, not historic, just old.

Perhaps your 99.9% is correct if you include the adobe and stick and cardboard and wattle houses so many live in. Don't know.


Missing my point. Has that 1887 house ever been remodeled or renovated? If you were at say, 30ft MSL at the ocean had risen 5ft since the house was built, would your next 50k project go to renovating that house, or would you sell to someone content to stay till water flooded the floor and then walk away, and take that 50k and use as part of new construction or even just buying existing at a higher elevation?

No one, or almost no one lives in a building that has been unchanged for 100+ years. There's always new roofs, rotten wood, new pipes, new electrical/comms... foundation work, or whatever.

Discount the folks living at sea level firght now, and consider big picture, structures at 20, 40, 50ft MSL. Folks living there right now are in denial about SLR; but after the level is +5ft; they won't be in denial, they'll be looking to adapt or flee; and they'll have plenty of time to do it.

SLR is glacially slow. It doesn't produce the kind of catastrophic, "OMG the city that was fine yesterday is flooded!" Other, more hidden pieces of climage change are much more problematic. From Cid's methane apocalpse all the way to changes in mid summer temps that kill the productivity of grain crops. How do you tell someone their loaf of bread costs $10 now because of... climate change????


My wife and I were having that discussion just last night. I told her that in all known cases the maximum rate of rise was about 9 inches a year for twenty years. At that rate worst case scenario is 15 feet in two decades. Given that if WAIS and GIS both collapse the grand total is still only 12 meters/36 feet so if it all melted as fast as possible it would are fifty years.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby peripato » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 03:23:09

Newfie wrote:
peripato wrote:Just accept it. And move on...


1+

what else is there to do?

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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 08:44:17

Enjoy surfing the shark fin
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 12:05:47

Or, to paraphrase Anita Bryant, a day without collapse is like a day without sunshine! :)

(Though I still prefer another paraphrase: Beer: It's not just for breakfast anymore!)

On the sea level rise thing--we've gone over this many times already on different threads, so I'll try to be brief here.

One can look at 'standard' predictions of one meter rise by the end of the century and think that this is something we can adjust for. But:

1) We are in a period of increasing scarcity of both energy and materials to continuously rebuild entire cities and other infrastructure.

2) Even if we had the energy to do this, we would have to get it from non-carbon sources, which will be in great demand for doing everything else that our society wants to do.

3) Official slr rates like the above overlook the fact that, as our top glaciologists (see nearly any interview with or talk by the likes of Jason Box or Richard Allen or Eric Rignot) keep trying to remind us, icesheets don't collapse gradually or linearly. Evidence from past collapses show that they go through a slow phase and then there are a few decades of very rapid collapse. It is essentially impossible to know when these rapid collapses will happen.

4) Specific localities are very likely to see very different rates of slr, some very little (for a while) others quite a lot and fairly abruptly. As it happens, the East coast of the US is one place where rather sudden slr is quite likely, since the AMOC (more or less the Gulf Stream) is already backing up and altering its path. It is just these kinds of changes in currents that can bring about rather sudden spikes in slr.

5) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, even if slr did the unusual thing and increased more-or-less linearly/gradually, the actual devastating effects on particular coastal locals will mostly be sudden and overwhelming, and more and more so going forward. Even if you avoid devastation from sudden collapse of ice sheets or from sudden shifts in ocean currents, Sandy and Katrina should have shown us that vulnerable coastal areas do not have to 'wait' till average sea levels are above their shores to be in trouble.

Starting from already higher sea levels, storms, when they come, are ever more likely to be ever more massive and powerful--fueled by higher atmospheric temperatures, higher humidity levels, and higher sea surface temperatures--and to be steered by new jet stream configurations more and more towards areas that have little or now experience dealing with major hurricanes. Higher humidity levels (already ~8% higher than historical levels globally) will mean that the rainfall associated with these storms will also tend to be much, much higher.

So huge amounts of ocean water will be pushed into land, up to and beyond amounts we usually associate with a major tsunami--Haiyan ocean surge was ~40 feet--on top of the already higher sea levels, while at the same time, ungodly deluges of rain will be flooding the same locals from the above and from the mainland.

These are the events--which become more and more common pretty much everywhere and more and more during any time of year--that will devastate ports, coastal cities, and coastal areas, not so much the gradual, millimeter-by-millimeter rises that one thinks of from the long range numbers. And these devastating events, by their natures, are unpredictable as to exactly where they will hit and when, at least up till a few days or hours before landfall.

More than anything, it is the uncertainties laid out above that will make it difficult to plan for the slr we now know is coming--mostly because of the timing: Do you move a port or major city inland in anticipation of a sudden ice sheet collapse, a shift of ocean current, or a major hurricane swell? But it might turn out that the event doesn't turn up for years or decades, during which time you will have lost the advantages of having an operating port/city by the coast.

The smartest strategy, it seems to me, is to start moving most major cities well inland (and up hill, where available), and keep the ports--that must be rebuilt every few decades anyway, as I understand it--at or near (current) sea levels. This, after all, was the pattern for such ancient cities as Athens (whose sea port was/is Piraeus) and Rome (whose sea port was Ostia).

I will just also note that the area where there is indeed (so far mostly) gradual increase in slr more and more often taking over streets and other parts of the city is Miami and its coastal suburbs, particularly Miami Beach. They are not, so far, dealing with it in the rational manner that Agent lays out--steadily moving away from areas that are clearly destined to be underwater permanently before too long.

They are mostly in denial.

And that is the most likely reaction we will see from most cities, most states, most localities and most nations most of the time.

That is, until Agent succeeds in taking over the world and establishing his enlightened, rational, sensible approach to everything everywhere! :lol: :lol: :lol:

(I see my attempt to be 'brief' failed pretty badly here! :-D :oops: )
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 12:38:36

dohboi wrote:1) We are in a period of increasing scarcity of both energy and materials to continuously rebuild entire cities and other infrastructure.

2) Even if we had the energy to do this, we would have to get it from non-carbon sources, which will be in great demand for doing everything else that our society wants to do.

3) Official slr rates like the above overlook the fact that, as our top glaciologists (see nearly any interview with or talk by the likes of Jason Box or Richard Allen or Eric Rignot) keep trying to remind us, icesheets don't collapse gradually or linearly. Evidence from past collapses show that they go through a slow phase and then there are a few decades of very rapid collapse. It is essentially impossible to know when these rapid collapses will happen.

4) Specific localities are very likely to see very different rates of slr, some very little (for a while) others quite a lot and fairly abruptly. As it happens, the East coast of the US is one place where rather sudden slr is quite likely, since the AMOC (more or less the Gulf Stream) is already backing up and altering its path. It is just these kinds of changes in currents that can bring about rather sudden spikes in slr.

The smartest strategy, it seems to me, is to start moving most major cities well inland (and up hill, where available), and keep the ports--that must be rebuilt every few decades anyway, as I understand it--at or near (current) sea levels. This, after all, was the pattern for such ancient cities as Athens (whose sea port was/is Piraeus) and Rome (whose sea port was Ostia).

I will just also note that the area where there is indeed (so far mostly) gradual increase in slr more and more often taking over streets and other parts of the city is Miami and its coastal suburbs, particularly Miami Beach. They are not, so far, dealing with it in the rational manner that Agent lays out--steadily moving away from areas that are clearly destined to be underwater permanently before too long.

They are mostly in denial.

And that is the most likely reaction we will see from most cities, most states, most localities and most nations most of the time.


Simple IMO the rational reaction is for Canada and the USA to pour large funding into the Saint Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lake ports in both countries. Even if every bit of ice on the planet melts the ports in Lake Ontario and further inland will remain untouched by ocean level rise. By upgrading the seaway and investing in those ports like Rochester, Cleveland, Toronto, Detroit, Chicago, Duluth TPTB would ensure a continuity of access to shipping for as long as we can imagine into the future. With the tie in between Chicago and the Mississippi river shipping on that end plus the transfer capacity at Erie, Pennsylvania to get into the headwaters that become the Ohio river at Pittsburgh it is a win-win-win situation providing access through both the ocean shipping and river shipping networks of the entire USA east of the Rocky mountains.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 12:47:33

Yes, that is indeed even smarter.

Sorry, Agent.

T now gets my vote for universal absolute monarch! :lol:

From Chicago and other points, the great lakes can also be connected to the vast Mississippi/Ohio/Missouri Rivers network.

Ships and barges, among the most efficient way to move goods, may indeed have a bright future, if we can manage to maintain the lock and damn systems and if we can build a few more canals to make these lake-river connections.

Of course, periodic droughts will, as they did a while ago, strand ships and barges in dried up rivers.

And biblical flooding events in the midwest, as we are seeing now, will continue to be...troublesome...for many river-side cities.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2 ... =hootsuite

But at least most of them will be safe from even the most extreme predictions of slr.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:02:49

America's Great Loop combined with our Nation's Inland River System
plays a vital role in linking the Gulf and Atlantic ocean to places you would never
imagine possible to reach by boat - especially, your own.

The Great Loop offers you the opportunity to explore over 29,400 miles on the
Inland Rivers of America's Heartland. Cruise it all, and In the end, you will have
boated about the same average distance of sailors circumnavigating the globe.
WOW!
If you have ever wondered; "How far in America, you can go in
your very own boat? The answer is about 29,400 statute miles.


http://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html



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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:12:52

Nice map, Newf!

I had forgotten about the connections to the Tombigbee and Alabama Rivers.

It strikes me that a canal between Lake Erie and some navigable upper part of the Ohio River system would make this loop even more...robust.

But the coastal ports on the map will have to become more...flexible. Mobile will have to be mobile! :lol:

And there will definitely need to be a new New Orleans! :cry:
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:27:24

Maybe time to put these guys back in action:

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https://www.google.com/search?q=Ohio+an ... -EtlxKM%3A
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:28:04

Maybe time to put these guys back in action:
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:33:15

More detail here:

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The Miami/Erie and the Ohio/Erie canals were both shut down as recently as the '60s because of competition from rail. Time to turn that around?
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:47:07

The NY State system is still operational and can handle pretty decent size barges.

Not ocean going ships, but better than a sharp stick in the eye. 13' minimum depth.

How big are the locks on the Canal System?
All Canal System lock dimensions are 328 feet long and 45 feet wide. The area available for vessels within a lock is 300 feet long, 43.5 feet wide.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 13:56:51

iirc, England had a very extensive canal system before the advent of rail. Many are still used for recreational boating, I believe.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 14:14:58

The railroads aren't going away, although they might be electrified. Some of those Rails-to-Trails bike routes might go back to being tracks. Expect to see mid-sized companies located on rail spurs like the old days. And it's not just to save on trucking costs, but road maintenance costs. Freight tracks don't need continuous rebuilding the way highways do. In Cambodia, people improvised the "bamboo railroad"

Image

Even if engines went away entirely, people would still use the rails.

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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 14:52:18

dohboi wrote:Maybe time to put these guys back in action:



If you look at the old canal map for Pennsylvania you will see that the Allegheny and Monongahela rivers come together at Pittsburgh to form the start of the Ohio river. In the Canal heyday there was a direct route from Erie, PA to the Allegheny which fed into the Ohio and from there into the entire Mississippi complex with the Ohio and Missouri networks being the largest tributaries. Before Steam started to rule water was far and away the cheapest way to transport people or cargo. In the UK they had a saying in the canal days, when it rains all day the road turns to mud, but the canal just flows on unaffected.
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 15:50:29

Good points, T and PS.

The Erie/Ohio Canal wasn't abandoned till the 1960s, so it wasn't just rail but highways that it was competing with. As highways become less useful, even if rail is still used, these canals may be seen as valuable ways to move people and goods again.

It seems to me that, if you could manage water flow carefully, it might be possible to have some flow across relatively flat stretches of the canal (with no intervening locks) so that when traffic needs to flow one direction, water flows in that direction. Then, when you need to have traffic flow the other direction, the flow would go that way.

All it would take would be for both ends of the canal to have substantial enough streams running into them there or near by that large retaining pools could be built. These would collect water when the canal is flowing toward it, and then let it out to establish a flow going the other way.

In this way, you could get transportation across substantial distances, if rather slow, essentially for free, enrgy-wise (no energy input needed except for that necessary to open and close sluice gate), as long as the rivers and streams flowed with water (a more and more iffy proposition, going forward, unfortunately.

(But this is just random guess work. Probably if it were viable, someone would have been doing it already.)
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Re: We're Doomed. Now What?

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 11 Jan 2016, 16:05:20

Tanada wrote:
dohboi wrote:Maybe time to put these guys back in action:

If you look at the old canal map for Pennsylvania you will see that the Allegheny and Monongahela rivers come together at Pittsburgh to form the start of the Ohio river. In the Canal heyday there was a direct route from Erie, PA to the Allegheny which fed into the Ohio and from there into the entire Mississippi complex with the Ohio and Missouri networks being the largest tributaries. Before Steam started to rule water was far and away the cheapest way to transport people or cargo. In the UK they had a saying in the canal days, when it rains all day the road turns to mud, but the canal just flows on unaffected.

And that is why there was so much interest in the region, making it ground zero for the French and Indian War (as seen in "Last Of The Mohicans"). That's why George Washington spent so much time in SW Pennsylvania, and Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia" describes SW PA because VA owned what would later become Pittsburgh. They were looking for the water connection of the Chesapeake and Mississippi watershed, which get as close as the Casselman and Youghiogheny Rivers, but both of them are whitewater at that point. Trading posts sprang up along a route between the two highest navigable points in those watersheds, from Frostburg MD on the Potomac to Steubenville OH on the Ohio River, and that trading post route is now Rt 40.
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