[tita]

I don't think today's technology is better or worser than retro techno. We produce cheaper, with less ressources. But it is also more complex, which means less reliable and less ways to repair easily.

An old washing machine from the 70's could last 25 years without much problems. But they were expensive, because they were made for intensive use. Also, as they were only electro-mechanic, it was always possible to repair it (unless the electric engine was out). Today, you have very different quality and prices. The betters can last 15 years maybe... but at some point, you won't find the service parts (especially electronic cards). And for the low-cost ones, don't expect more than 5 years.

The life of any device depends on the weakest part of it. If that part is easily replacable, no problems. But if it's a complex part you can't reproduce yourself and is no longer produced en masse, then the device become garbage while it could work at 98%.

[Cog]

Remember tv tubes where they repairman would come out to your house and have to replace various tubes. Growing up this seemed to happen every few months or so. TV's last a lot longer now and you rarely have to have them fixed. They are so inexpensive, you simply replace them.

Of course it all complex manufacturing goes away, you wouldn't have tubes or the TV's.

But in other things like simply mechanical tools, they can last a very long time. Wind up clocks come to mind.

[SeaGypsy]

India has functioning factories making British designed cars, motorbikes, sewing machines, small motors and lots of gadgets from the early.to mid last century, with a few modern tweaks, metallurgy, some of this stuff is better than original spec.

[Subjectivist]

I like my fuel injected computer controlled pickup that starts at forty below zero , goes 5000 miles between oil changes and will last me 250,000 miles if I don't wreck it. If the gas goes away I'll walk or ride a bicycle.
I prefer a good razor sharp butchers knife to a Cuisinart because it is more versatile and easier to clean. I love my chain saw but know how to use a axe and crosscut saw if needed.
I have a 42 HP diesel tractor with loader and tillage tools to grow all my own food if needed but spent $250 at the market the other day.
My plan is to use the best thing available but know how to get by if the high tech stuff stops working or becomes unavailable.

It's a trade off when talking about cars and trucks. I could do regular maintenance on my car engine and that gave me a deeper appreciation of it. Now you have to have computer connections that talk to the car just to find out what is going on with it.

[SeaGypsy]

Old school mechanics still work, just do a battery code reset when done. The computer diagnostics save time if you have the reader, they are usually not necessary if you know something about mechanics.

[EdwinSm]

"Yes and No". It all depends

As I have considered what I have done to prepare for a world with less oil I have gone for a mixture of high tech and retro.

For example with heating the house I had a high tech ground-heat exchange system put in, but also installed a wood burning stove based on a 1896 design. In some areas even 'retro-type' things have been improved on, especially in wood burning stoves (for heat only) where better air flow provides a better/cleaner and more efficient burn.

[vtsnowedin]

India has functioning factories making British designed cars, motorbikes, sewing machines, small motors and lots of gadgets from the early.to mid last century, with a few modern tweaks, metallurgy, some of this stuff is better than original spec.

My John Deere 5045E was made in Pune India where they now make the 5000 series plus transmissions for the 4000 series. I think they built some 75,000 units last year at that plant alone. All together JD has plants building tractors and construction equipment in twenty seven different countries making them a local business all over the world.
https://www.deere.co.in/en_IN/our_compa ... ories.page

[Hawkcreek]

All together JD has plants building tractors and construction equipment in twenty seven different countries making them a local business all over the world.

Evidently local everywhere except in the USA, seeing as how you had to import yours from India.
And any replacement parts will have to be imported as well.
Kind of a shame, but I have a Yanmar diesel tractor, so I can't really bitch about the situation.

[vtsnowedin]

All together JD has plants building tractors and construction equipment in twenty seven different countries making them a local business all over the world.

Evidently local everywhere except in the USA, seeing as how you had to import yours from India.
And any replacement parts will have to be imported as well.
Kind of a shame, but I have a Yanmar diesel tractor, so I can't really bitch about the situation.

You misunderstand. JD built that plant to build that class of tractor close to where the most sales of that size would happen. A 5045 to a 5075 tractor is a step up for the average Indian farmer but too small for Ag operations in the USA and too big for the gentleman farmer glorified lawnmower crowd.
They really have a worldwide production and distribution system. The front axles are cast in China and the hydraulic pumps and valves are made in Italy.
Larger tractors are made in Augusta Georgia USA and other places in the USA. But even those have parts that come in from all over the world.
As for parts they will still get you parts for a model M if you have one and my dealer is very good so I haven't had any trouble there and don't expect to in my lifetime.
They did rebrand some Yanmar tractors as smaller JDs a while back and may still be so you might get parts for your Yanmar at your local JD dealer.

[SeaGypsy]

Iran still manufactures French designed cars from the late 80's. My last Peugeot was a 94 diesel, intercooler with self cleaning turbo, went really well for over half a million km with no major maintenance.

[Shaved Monkey]

You used to be able to get soviet made hand tools in Australia probably 10 or 20 years ago
Built to last

[Revi]

I don't know if it's a better investment because you need parts to keep things going. I like things that are simple and are still being made. They have the best chance of continuing to function, in my humble opinion.

[hvacman]

I bought one of these from Harbor Freight for $150:

sold my oxy-acetylene-torch-set because no longer have a metal shop.

Don't want to combine wood and metal work in the same room. no.

Throw in a $500 milling machine and you can build the world again. I'll bet with these tools and enough scrap you could build anything. Humanity really doesn't need all those printed circuits. People did fine back in the 1970's pre-Apple Dark Days lol

Pete - I'd add one more tool to that tool box. When I took production processes back in college, we were told that the ultimate metal-working tool to own is a basic engine lathe. It supposedly is the only machine tool that could theoretically machine itself. It makes sense. A milling machine can do many wonderful things - facing, edging, drilling, boring - but with a 4-jaw chuck and creative jigs, you can do almost all that on a lathe. Only a lathe can turn a shaft. Every machine requires rotating parts, with machined shafts and the round things that connect to it. Milling machine + engine lathe and you can make darn near anything, including more milling machines and lathes.

[Revi]

I think it's going to be hard to get gas, but if you do it will be much more useful in splitting wood or something useful. Therefore I like things that can be repaired easily and that can be fixed. I have a maple syrup evaporator, and that works without any input of fossil fuels. Things like that will be the useful things in the near future.

[Longtimber]

Ad on Radio bragging about the sewing machine having windows Vista. What could go wrong?

[efarmer]

In replay to outcast_searcher:

1. Did not mention automobiles as an example of older technology being more durable.

2. Modern machines with lifetime sealed bearings, nylon gears and bearings that lose their
plasticity and crumble and break versus bearings and bushings with wicks that allow oiling
are one great example. The former goes a decade or two, the latter goes a century or two.

3. Another good example is high efficiency refrigeration. Scroll compressors are wonderful vs.
recips, but fan motors that do not allow maintenance oiling and tin foil tinsel on aluminum tubes
for heat exchangers load up and lose efficiency and cannot be cleaned thoroughly as easily as
the more expensive to make aluminum fins on copper tubing versions. High Efficiency for a 10
year life with diminishing efficiency from soiling, and requiring replacement in 10 or 15 years
versus a 40 year life with maintenance and perhaps a fan motor capacitor or one for the compressor
along with new contactors each 7 years for contact wear, and perhaps new sequencers for the
emergency heat bank if the unit is a heat pump or electric furnace with AC built in.

4. ICE driven vehicles such as cars could be built with less creature comfort gadgets and more quality parts for the same cost, but would not sell for people who want the gadgets and only ask "How much does this car cost per month?" at the dealership. The embedded systems and software I have been a part of implementing in engine and transmission control has no peer in old systems for the ability to efficiently utilize fuel, adjust to operating conditions, and attempt to maintain the most efficient
transfer of power from the engine to the work.

Some older things were well made, and yes overbuilt with materials. In some cases you have to actually look at embodied energy and analyze if a 50 year life overbuilt wins over a series of 7 throw away machines to fill the same time span. It is case by case, and there are cases for old and new.

[Shaved Monkey]

Ive got a $300 Metabo cordless drill with a dead battery and the battery costs more than a drill so I replaced it with a $69 cheap Chinese drill thats still going and has a 3 year replacement warranty.
I hate it when that happens

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day all:
I don't chime in much any more. Pilgrim and I stay very busy.
But on this subject I have some knowledge I would like to share.
Hoping this may come in useful for those seeking an older machine.
I am a sewing machine junkie. I have 7 machines.
At one time I had 17, but Pilgrim was threatening to sleep in machine shed because there was no room. So common sense had to prevail.
I love taking them apart, repairing, etc.
Is a retro machine better than a new one.
Well, the answer is like asking a farmer a question.
The answer will always be, "It all depends".
Depends on what you mean by "retro"
Depends on what you are going to use it for.
Depends on the brand.

There are four basic types of sewing machines.
Computer
Electronic
Mechanical
Manual.
Manual is a treadle or hand crank. If you can find a certain model, especially a Singer, is a great investment.
Singer model 15-88 is best, but should be a round bobbin, not what is known as flying shuttle or long bobbin. Bobbins and parts difficult to find and flying shuttle bobbins hold little thread.

Next are mechanical. Machines powered by electricity, but all knobs and controls are mechanical. These are the machines I adore and collect.
Berninas have the most punching power, mostly because of their DC motor, but have two nylon gears in most machines.
Parts for older Berninas are hard to find, but it can be done. They are worth the investment.
There is a reason for the nylon gears. They are quiet and they will break if something goes wrong rather than a more integral, expensive part of machine.
Singer has some nice mechanical machines, the models 201 and 15 being the best. Straight stitch only, but they are amazing. Gear driven, no belts, no plastic parts. Came in 4 types, potted motor, aftermarket motor, treadle, and handcrank. You can not go wrong with a well cared for 201 or 15.
Singer also has a series of machines called "Slant Needle". The needle is slanted forward. Models 301, 401, 503. Great machines, but take note.
slanting the needle forward means less piercing power. Plus, the machine needs slanted attachments. These are gear driven machines, no belt.
note, the main gear for driving these machines is not metal. It is WWII product called Textolite. Hard as iron. I never heard of one breaking.

Electronic machines are machines with an electronic board, not computerized. Most of these are from the 90s. Some awesome machines. But if the board fries, machine is a boat anchor.

Next are computer machines. Oh my, they are fun. the high end ones can cost as much as a car. But, an older Bernina or a Singer 201 or 15 have more piercing power.
Cheap machines, Wal-Mart, Jo-anns are what are called clamshell construction. Two pieces of plastic slapped together. They were made for the landfill.
Older Kenmore machines with a prefix model number of 158 are great machines. All metal, belt driven, but usually a cogged belt. The 158 means they were made in Japan by Maruzen/Jaguar.

Necchi, Pfaff, Viking, not my cup of tea. Tried them. Italian made Necchis have a huge following, but are so finely machined they tend to seize up easily. When well oiled and cared for old Necchis are smooooth.
parts are difficult to find.
my advice, avoid computer machines unless you stumble on one like I did the one at Salvation Army.
Opt for a manual if you can find a really good 15 or 201 with a round bobbin.
look for a mechanical Bernina, or a Singer 201 or 15.
The last model Bernina that is a mechanical was the mode 1031. After that they were electronic.
My Singer 15-91 (the 91 means potted motor) will sew just about anything with a straight stitch that is flawlessly beautiful.
Finally, I have an industrial Juki. I just love it for working with denim. It's a beast, but a machine I should have purchased 17 machines ago.
Downside, it takes a ton of space, if it ever needs repair I have to haul in a 70# sewing machine, or fix it myself. Upside, feet are only a couple of bucks each. It sews like a demon.
A lot of machines, a lot of choices. If anybody has any questions on a machine feel free to ask.
Here is a link to a site I always share. I get tired of seeing people being ripped off on "industrial strength" machines on E-Bay.

http://vssmb.blogspot.com/2012/04/diffe ... .html#more
Pheba.

[davep]

Throw in a $500 milling machine and you can build the world again.

Amen, brother! It reminds me of the Gingery series "Build Your Own Metal Working Shop From Scrap" that was used to good effect in third world countries and is now available in a hardback version https://www.amazon.com/Build-Metal-Working-Scrap-Complete/dp/1878087355?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

I work in computers and have done for 30 years, but far prefer "appropriate" technology http://journeytoforever.org/at.html