[onlooker]

I have been thinking of this off and on for awhile. So I decided to start a new thread to gauge the opinion of others. I think most regular posters here by now know that I am against Capitalism or at least hyper Capitalism. Having said that I do recognize that in a purely economic context, Capitalism is very efficient at providing necessities and wants in a manner for the most part beneficial to all transacting parties. The problem is what economists refer to as "externalities". The most common example being harm to the environment. The other inherent problem with Capitalism as I see it is that in encourages, excess greed, exploitation and selfish consumerism. Thus it magnifies the thesis of the "Tragedy of the Commons". I am pretty sure some here may argue that this greed and selfishness are inherent traits in humans. I actually would concur. Thus societies in adopting Capitalism have only further exacerbated our natural inclinations and vices. So, in point of fact even as economic sustenance has always been a necessary preoccupation of humans, the cure in the form of Capitalism is worse than the disease of humans needing or wanting something derived from Nature. While Capitalism provides for these individual wants and needs it does so without regard to these externalities. These externalities are in fact the Earth. So this question parallels the Tragedy of the Commons question regarding how to provide for our need and wants while maintaining a certain balance and equilibrium with the source of these provisions namely Earth? I can only say that Capitalism in the forms practiced on this planet is NOT the way.

[efarmer]

Capitalism is wonderful if you have a place where there are abundant resources that are not allocated and simultaneously have the concentration of wealth diffuse enough to provide individual incentive to exploit said resources. When these factors begin to wane it begins to pretty much suck except for those who have already concentrated their wealth and essentially control the remaining resources via leverage. I am unaware of any sustainable financial strategies or "isms" that are successful with resource limits and remain sustainable.

[efarmer]

I did not mean to imply there are not capitalistic niches to exploit that are available. Personally I am working on an instructable that may lead to a kickstarter funding ploy. Essentially I am taking a Harbor Freight Hot Melt glue dispensing gun and making Efarmer's Brazilian Hot Wax DIY rig out of it. As soon as my lab assistant gets out of hospital and available for further alpha test sessions, I will be more forthcoming with details, but on another thread so as to not pervert this one and run afoul of the mod.
EF

[onlooker]

I did not mean to imply there are not capitalistic niches to exploit that are available. Personally I am working on an instructable that may lead to a kickstarter funding ploy. Essentially I am taking a Harbor Freight Hot Melt glue dispensing gun and making Efarmer's Brazilian Hot Wax DIY rig out of it. As soon as my lab assistant gets out of hospital and available for further alpha test sessions, I will be more forthcoming with details, but on another thread so as to not pervert this one and run afoul of the mod.
EF

Good luck with your tinkering Efarmer. Oh and the Entrepreneur the hero of Capitalism and I mean that in a good way.

[americandream]

We do not have a choice. History has chosen this mechanism as a means to globalise an innovative consciousness. That implies that said consciousness will become better able to read it and thus act in a rational manner.

I am trying hard not to appear metaphysical as there are means to scientifically measure history and they grow with the advances we make. Nor is history grounded in a purpose, nor is it in any way human centred, it is dispassionate as regards us and whether we succeed or not as a species. But we can understand it through the application of reason and science and arrive at logical outcomes that are sustainable.

[onlooker]

I feel that any measurement applied with reason or empirically is better than the subjective passionate ideologically centered philosophies and belief systems we have had like religion. Indeed, history is a fact based methodology in so much as it examines actual events and patterns. I am curious though as to your opinion based on this formidable unit of measurement that is history, why mankind has so discounted the environment in which humanity depends on? Also the corollary question, why have we shown such lack of restraint in a materialistic pursuits and our procreation habits? You can divide this last question into two parts.

[americandream]

I feel that any measurement applied with reason or empirically is better than the subjective passionate ideologically centered philosophies and belief systems we have had like religion. Indeed, history is a fact based methodology in so much as it examines actual events and patterns. I am curious though as to your opinion based on this formidable unit of measurement that is history, why mankind has so discounted the environment in which humanity depends on? Also the corollary question, why have we shown such lack of restraint in a materialistic pursuits and our procreation habits? You can divide this last question into two parts.

Capitalism is a double edged sword. It is meant to take us into innovative consciousness but that was never intended to be a trouble free ride. The essence of material dialecticism is turmoil laden transitional history. Each phase contains its antithesis and climate is our antithesis...capitalism is not destined to be the end terminus but a fraught and testing transition which would require high states of consciousness to emerge intact from. There will be no going back as we lack the capacity to. We have created a highly toxic world that we will survive through creative thinking or die in as our collective tomb. It does not take a great deal of logic to work that one out.

Running away in boats and up into the hills is possibly the stupidest thing one can do. We should be standing our ground as species and working our way around this.encouraging rational approaches tpo the problem. But have no doubt....such efforts will be assailed by doubting Thomases, the downright scuurvy and lets not forget the god crowd.

There is some good work going on in the sciences...at CERN for example.....Japan and China, Russia as well, India, the US, elsewhere in Europe, all over the world, there are many beavering away quietly in the background....politically though, the Cold War killed rational politics dead so thats an area we are pretty much in the dark.

[vtsnowedin]

I did not mean to imply there are not capitalistic niches to exploit that are available. Personally I am working on an instructable that may lead to a kickstarter funding ploy. Essentially I am taking a Harbor Freight Hot Melt glue dispensing gun and making Efarmer's Brazilian Hot Wax DIY rig out of it. As soon as my lab assistant gets out of hospital and available for further alpha test sessions, I will be more forthcoming with details, but on another thread so as to not pervert this one and run afoul of the mod.
EF

April fool perhaps?
We require a picture of this "assistant" or it never happened.

[vtsnowedin]

Capitalism coupled with scientific knowledge will end up being our best route forward. As a natural resource becomes scarce it's price will go up and capitalists will seek alternatives and efficiencies to reduce it's use. Those most in need of that resource will hoard and protect remaining supplies using only what can be sustainably produced and they will profit from those actions.
It is only the uninformed assumption that resources are unlimited that has allowed the levels of waste in the last century.
Some changes in regulation and tax structure could and should advance this transition so that the consumer has the environmental impact of his purchase included and paid for embedded in the price.

[GregT]

Capitalism coupled with scientific knowledge will end up being our best route forward.

So when greed and conceit are failing, the only logical solution is more greed, and more conceit?

With logic like that, it's not the least bit surprising that our species is facing extincion.

[onlooker]

Capitalism coupled with scientific knowledge will end up being our best route forward.

So when greed and conceit are failing, the only logical solution is more greed, and more conceit?

With logic like that, it's not the least bit surprising that our species is facing extincion.

And that is precisely why we are where we are. Human nature unrestrained and our grandiose view of ourselves. What little wisdom we have accrued as a species.

[vtsnowedin]

Capitalism coupled with scientific knowledge will end up being our best route forward.

So when greed and conceit are failing, the only logical solution is more greed, and more conceit?

With logic like that, it's not the least bit surprising that our species is facing extincion.

It is not greed to want enough for ones own family to survive , and the ambition it takes to work hard at acquiring the necessities of life is not greed or conceit. Capitalism rewards effort intelligently and successfully applied by letting those that apply it accumulate the profits as capital.
Capitalism is not failing. It is the perversions of capitalism and socialist redistribution of capitalism's profits that are causing the system to fail.

[onlooker]

Your idealistic Capitalist notions do not match real life Capitalism. In fact, your so called perversions are precisely inherent in Capitalism. Capitalism encourages monopoly and a big fish eat little fish mentality. It encourages excess of a material kind and encourages cheating, corruption, bribery etc. Why because it instills the glorification of greed and competition and thus makes winning at any cost quite logical and natural. This survival of the fittest environment leads ultimately to only a few huge winners and everyone else is a loser. Sounds familiar because that is precisely the world we have right now. As for your critique of socialist redistribution of capitalism, well I can only say if it were not for the vast wealth of the US and precisely this safety net, we in the US would be no different than any third world country. If you want to get a visceral sense of what I am talking about, watch "Wolf of Wall St" with Leonardo Dicaprio.

[vtsnowedin]

Your idealistic Capitalist notions do not match real life Capitalism. In fact, your so called perversions are precisely inherent in Capitalism. Capitalism encourages monopoly and a big fish eat little fish mentality. It encourages excess of a material kind and encourages cheating, corruption, bribery etc. Why because it instills the glorification of greed and competition and thus makes winning at any cost quite logical and natural. This survival of the fittest environment leads ultimately to only a few huge winners and everyone else is a loser. Sounds familiar because that is precisely the world we have right now. As for your critique of socialist redistribution of capitalism, well I can only say if it were not for the vast wealth of the US and precisely this safety net, we in the US would be no different than any third world country. If you want to get a visceral sense of what I am talking about, watch "Wolf of Wall St" with Leonardo Dicaprio.

Having worked in America for over forty years I don't need to watch a movie to know how the American system works.