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How do you know where your electricity comes from?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 19:52:29

KaiserJeep wrote:Indeed, we did PRECISELY answer your question. The answer was that ALL of the generators on the grid contribute power, and those furthest away contribute the least.

Ah, so your original answer to Kub
KK, the statement "Over here in Illinois, we get about half of our electricity from nuclear." is actually nonsense.
You DON'T consume that same power in the state, you put it on the Eastern power interconnect (the red area in the second image in my message). All of the power you consume also comes from that same interconnect, so 78% of the energy you consume comes from fossil fuels.

was not totally correct since local power is consumed to a greater extent than distant grid sources so local choices do make a difference.
That was my only point.

Here is a little gadget from the EPA that shows the source of power produced (if not totally consumed) in each region, it doesn't show company level data but that can be found here:
http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-r ... index.html
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 20:08:01

I was thinking the same think Pops.

KJ, if I am understanding you correctly the situation is something like:
1. Most electricity consumption is provided by local generators.
2. Technically, every generator on your interconnect(and possibly even those outside the interconnect) provides some of your electricity consumption. However because of technical reasons(longer wires have more resistance and so forth), most of the electricity is from local sources.

But if that is true it seems an oversimplification to say everybody on the eastern interconnect uses the same mix of electricity: 78% fossil fuel and 22% other. Since there are regional variations in generator source, and since the bulk of electricity consumption will be from local sources, it stands to reason there will be regional variation in consumption as well.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby MD » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 21:10:59

KJ is both right and wrong. The overall balance of 78% 22% is exactly accurate given the interconnected grid.

If you were however able to fracture the grid into stand alone segments, with each generating plant supplying only the load that they can carry (which KJ and I disagree on this point. I still maintain that it can and will likely happen), then the percentages vary widely.

Think back to the early days of power generation. When Niagara Falls power generation came on line there was a huge build out of industry in Buffalo, Hamilton, Tonawanda, Rochester, and other local communities. It took a while for the super high voltage lines to build out further.

When things start to fall apart, the high voltage distribution system will go first. There is just no reason to expect that local generation can't or won't be able to provide power locally. It will likely be subject to load imbalance, brownouts, cycle variation, and other problems, just like it was in the early days. No way in hell though will -all- the generating plants just stop and never start up again. The nuke plants, yes,I can see those stopping and dropping. Super sized coal? Those are going away slowly now anyway. Peak demand natural gas plants? They will likely run. Hydro? There will be HUGE efforts made to keep those plants producing.

HVDC? I don't buy into that any more than I do fusion, as things stand today, but that's just my wild ass opinion.

It will be interesting for sure. I might like to live to see it play out, then again maybe not. It's likely to be cold and hungry much of the time.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 21:48:14

Yeah, going back to the OP and "when the grid goes down" is different. Using the link I posted above the central Ca region (PG&E) is about half nat gas, 7% coal and 40% renewable -15% Hydro, 15% Nuke, 10% other renewable.

But I think a good bit of that hydro comes from the Columbia in WA and almost all our nat gas comes from the Rockies, wiki says:
California natural gas production typically is less than 2 percent of total annual U.S. production and satisfies less than one-sixth of state demand.[3][4] California receives most of its natural gas by pipeline from production regions in the Rocky Mountains, the Southwest, and western Canada.[4]


So again, CA is dust. LOL
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 22:59:10

HVDC COULD work to do some pretty good stuff, like increasing our transmission efficiency and helping to balance the grid over a larger area. But as with so many things it seems something that we WILL NOT do. At one time I believed the argument for HVDC was so compelling that I bought some ABB stock. Oopsies! It seems logic has very little to do with our actual decision making process.

I believe that in theory the larger the grid, the more inputs, the more efficient because the power can be shared to balance local peaks and valleys. I work in transit, electric trains are generally a PITA to the grid because they produce very peaky loads, and if two trains are accelerating at once, it's just that much worse. The more you can do to level the usage the better you are.

The downside is increased complexity and the risk of catastrophic system loss. I have visited off grid towns that have a local diesel generating plant. If the plant goes down, they are screwed until another one can be brought in by boat. That is an extreme example of localization. Less complexity but vulnerable to localized failures. A one legged stool.

KJ and MD, I think you guys have done an admirable job of describing the situation. I don't suspect you will make much more progress on the topic. It's a bit esoteric and nerdy and not easily described to the layman.

From my personal perspective I always laugh when I here someone say "I use wind power." in a righteous manner, as if it's better than some other power. What IS better, and ultimately the only thing that matters, is the power you DO NOT use.

Simply put, if you used NO power then you don't care a hoot about the grid. If you use VERY LITTLE power then you can draw from the grid or perhaps generate your own, or cope with some outages. If you are a typical user, well then you are just dependent upon the grid.

The same thing goes with being green, if you want to do something, then reduce your energy needs. Alternative energy is just a way of denying the greater problem, our excessive consumption. It's being a junkie on methadone, your still a junkie.

Now if I just wasnt a hypocrite I could be really smug about this. Alas! :badgrin:
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 05 Mar 2015, 18:17:28

Much of the grid interconnects and redundancies we today take for granted were actually implemented during Dwight D. Eisenhower's administration. General Eisenhower was strengthening the country infrastructure to save us from the spectre of Communism. He built the Interstate Highway system, he implemented redundant power grid interconnects, and he surrounded this country with a ring of high power over-the-horizon radars and each major city got a ring of Nike missile bases around it for defense against Russian bombers and ICBMs. Six decades ago, we implemented the area interconnects with central control rooms. Sometime after that six of these area interconnects implemented another hierarchy of control in the Eastern Interconnect (Red). That was in the 1950s.
Image
Then there were two interconnects, the Eastern and the Western, divided more or less along the Mississippi river. Some time after that the Eastern interconnect pushed past the river, Texas did it's own thing, and both the Eastern and Western interconnects pushed North into the Canadian provinces. Now we are in the 1960s.

This was the era of vacuum tubes, and did not include the ability to remotely sense power failures or remotely control switches and transformers. The utilities depended upon users to report power outages via telephone and then would dispatch linemen in trucks to troubleshoot and repair the distribution flaws. Eisenhower had had a hand in standardizing telephone hardware and putting 40 volt batteries at central telephone exchanges, so that communications were independent of the power grid even before cellphones.

The next move was made by the utilities themselves, who used the Federally-mandated power interconnects to implement an open power wholesale exchange, and began selling each other power futures and fixed price power contracts. In the process, the early and primitive controls of the power distribution were removed and central controls were implemented for each of the four zones above. The Eastern power interconnect took this up to another level, combining area interconnects into the super-area shown in red. Now we are in the 1970s.

Although they gained redundancies that compensated for the aging infrastructure, much of the equipment in the Eastern interconnect dates back to Eisenhower - or Edison/Westinghouse, if you ever visit Niagara Falls, you can see some of the early power plant stuff in the museum.

See what I am saying here, MD? The infrastructure that you believe we can "fall back on" simply does not exist any more. Power plants are only attached to the national grid. Cities and rural power administrations are only attached to the national grid. We CANNOT "fall back" to anything because it is NO LONGER THERE. If we wanted to re-implement the Edison/Westinghouse model of a central power plant surrounded by a web of power consumers, we would have to start by tearing down the existing grid, then building a new one with an entirely different distribution topology - and many more control rooms.

It just is not going to happen. You can live within sight of a functioning power plant, and freeze to death because you have no electrical power, because somebody stole a section of copper wire over the horizon, or an overloaded transformer burned and there is no available replacement.

The modern "emergency power" that is used when a large area transformer is being replaced or upgraded is to strategically spot large diesel generators in the 200-500 Kilowatt sizes around the area going dark. Then on a scheduled time in the wee AM hours, the cutover is made and the generators take over the blocks effected. Then some days or weeks later, the cutover to the new transformer is made. A key thing to understand is that all of the generator trailers combined, which are typically parked at a power substation, along with other trailers having transformers, typically have 5% or less of the capacity of that local power substation. They definitely do not constitute any emergency power supply that would ever power a normal residence in an emergency. Emergency services and government offices, yes. Your house, no.

You see what I am saying here? The control topology for the power grid is what it is, and it does not lend itself to easy or cheap reconfiguration. The redundancies that Eisenhower insisted upon, have been steadily whittled away by the rising demand for power and the reduced investment levels of power utilities. The utilities themselves lack a coherent goal, beyond profit. These utilities are a mix of traditional power companies (owning both power plants and distribution networks), other corporations (such as CALPINE) serving only the wholesale power market, and other utilities (some public, some private) which have no power plants, they only buy wholesale power and sell to retail consumers.

The model is that power plants feed the national grid, and the grid powers everything. That is all there is. If the grid goes offline, there won't be any segments alive - and I seriously doubt that we would ever make the investment to reconfigure to the Edison/Westinghouse model that you seem to have in your head.

What I think will happen to the grid is that the consumers will transform into micropower consumers. We will live in tiny super-insulated homes, use minute amounts of power, and use passive and active solar heat, plus a combination of every present power source we have and a few we cannot yet imagine. Current cities are obsolete, but new cities (arcologies is one name for them) will come about. Underground (or at least Earth-sheltered) living will become common. Green roofs will be the norm. LED lighting will be the norm. Organic LED HDTVs will be the norm. You will carry around a computer/phone capable of handshaking with every HDTV/PC Monitor nearby, and the worldwide network. The network capability in that telephone will include satellite connectivity, and national borders may disappear, I believe that we will organize ourselves into "virtual nations" all of which intermingle geographically. You will own a bike, and eat about 75% of what Americans eat today - which will still be an unhealthy amount of food.

There may be a power grid - with less than a quarter of today's grid capacity - but powered by fewer and fewer fossil fuel plants over time.

New world, but not so strange after all.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby MD » Thu 05 Mar 2015, 19:42:18

KaiserJeep wrote:See what I am saying here, MD? The infrastructure that you believe we can "fall back on" simply does not exist any more. Power plants are only attached to the national grid. Cities and rural power administrations are only attached to the national grid. We CANNOT "fall back" to anything because it is NO LONGER THERE. If we wanted to re-implement the Edison/Westinghouse model of a central power plant surrounded by a web of power consumers, we would have to start by tearing down the existing grid, then building a new one with an entirely different distribution topology - and many more control rooms.


Yep, sure do, and thanks for another great post on the details of the grid.

And yes, I do believe that is exactly what would happen should the grid fail. Control systems will be cobbled together, lines will be cut, transformers moved around, medium voltage nodes will be restarted, here and there. It will be dangerous and ugly. There would likely be fires, electrocutions, and all kinds of accidents. The results would likely be of poor quality, and intermittent, but the effort will happen. That's all I am saying.

edit: Hell man, give me a decent sized crew I could reengineer a node myself, probably killing a few people and starting a few fires in the process, but we would try anyway because when the masses are cold and tired the regulations will be damned. It will be tried anyway, everywhere, and some will succeed!
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 05 Mar 2015, 20:21:24

MD wrote:
Yep, sure do, and thanks for another great post on the details of the grid.

And yes, I do believe that is exactly what would happen should the grid fail. Control systems will be cobbled together, lines will be cut, transformers moved around, medium voltage nodes will be restarted, here and there. It will be dangerous and ugly. There would likely be fires, electrocutions, and all kinds of accidents. The results would likely be of poor quality, and intermittent, but the effort will happen. That's all I am saying.

edit: Hell man, give me a decent sized crew I could reengineer a node myself, probably killing a few people and starting a few fires in the process, but we would try anyway because when the masses are cold and tired the regulations will be damned. It will be tried anyway, everywhere, and some will succeed!


For WHAT exactly? The power remains on as long as the fossil fuels last. Then if we are so unwise as to feed our addiction to cheap personal transportation by converting coal to liquids (CTL) we will rip through at least six decades of cheap coal in one decade, and then be in the same pickle as today. I mean, if we have $10/gallon CTL fuels (or even $20/gallon) what exactly is the reason to "wise up" and implement Smart Grid, Supergrid, HVDC, or alternative power sources?

What we need is exactly what we don't have, a leader like Eisenhower, who could go on TV and talk about the menace of "the Soviet Hordes" and get his agenda implemented. People need leadership, and when they don't get any, they elect empty suits like Bill Clinton or GWB or Obama. (I'm an equal opportunity political skeptic.)

We should have started the grid transformation decades ago. Jimmy Carter is the first POTUS that talked about the need to do so. No POTUS from either side has ever acted effectively to reduce our dependance on oil.

I'm not holding my breath. I do believe the nukes and the dams will be the last baseline power we have. We have just about chewed through the refined fissionable material we bought from the Russians, about 75% of the nuclear fuel in use in our reactors today was once Russian bombs. Pretty neat trick, and the Russian oligarchs stole the American dollars from this without investing in their own power grid. Because even Putin is a pale shadow of a ruler, not a true leader.

But I don't see us rebuilding the grid as you think when the 78% fossil energy is gone, either. There is no motive to do so.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby SolarDave » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 05:07:02

Quite a bit of it comes from me.
100% of the electricity needed for this post was generated by ME.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 09:46:37

We were discussing how resource constraints will prioritize essentials like food production over more discretionary and wasteful endeavors. This will happen with electrical use just like it will happen with fuel consumption. Today far more electricity and transport fuel and food production is discretionary rather than essential. A processed frozen pizza transported 2000km and baked in an electric oven is a discretionary food item vs a pound of grain corn that you can mill with a mechanical hand mill and make corn flour and cook up grits or polenta with just 10 minutes of cooking

Anyone who generates their own power off the grid will very quickly get very intimate with all their devices that consume electricity. We produce a constant 8KW of 220V AC power with our micro hydro system. Rice cookers, toasters, water heaters, coffee brewer, 5 refrigerators, lighting, clothes dryer. If we need to use the clothes dryer (4.8kw) we better make sure we are not cooking rice at the same time.

Do we want to use our wood planer that is driven with a 3.5HP 220V single phase electrical motor that requires a 50amp burst to get started? Then we better shut down power to all the other cabins and put 100% of those 8KW to our workshop.

Electric hot water tank can be used when we switch out the two 4500W heating elements for two 1500W heating elements. So a group of 4 has to wait a couple hours between showers in order for the water to get hot enough.

There are many compromises you make, adjustments, scheduling, etc.

We have this huge peak demand of power in modern industrial civilization where late in the afternoon on hot summer days there is this peak when air conditioners are all running, factories haven't yet closed, and home power is often maxing out. We build out this huge complicated grid to accommodate this peak demand. There is another name for this peak demand. It is called peak entitlement.

Today any sacrifice to reduce the load is considered inconvenient. Tomorrow this will be understood as normal. It's certainly not today's normal.

I am rambling because I have a group of 4 tourists that flew down here on a jet plane and are waiting for me to take them bird watching so I am rushed and just throwing out observations :)

We have very little imagination when it comes to the future generations and how they will culturally adjust to far more efficient use of power and resources. Today what is considered inconvenient will be tomorrow's normal.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 12:39:04

Yes I agree that the grid will persist for a while as our civilization powers down and coal and natural gas burning ends. I think we will end up in a dimmer, colder future with the grid online at a quarter of the present capacity. But that is just another way of saying that infrastructure costs increase 4X per terawatt versus today. Is that enough to keep the grid online? I don't know, time will tell. If the price is also allowed to increase 4X, probably it is. It would really suck to lose the flexibility and reliability that comes with a national scale power grid.

So much for the dreams of personal EVs, which cannot exist in a world of 4X higher cost electricity, available in one quarter of today's capacity. Your furnace blower is probably your highest priority in the Winter, as long as you have some form of fuel to generate the heat. Heat pumps run at the 4X electric cost increase will not be a good choice in this bleak future.

One other problem is that we probably already have mined 95% of the copper we will ever have. That massive open pit called the Anaconda Mine is 2.5 miles deep, and copper mine tunnels in South America are 4-5 miles deep, and both are only yielding low grade copper ore. We have been mining copper since about 3300 BC, the beginning of the Bronze Age, and we have already mined almost all of the easily accessible metal. We will end up substituting aluminum, which is a poor alternative to copper because it oxidizes and causes fires where the wires are spliced or connected to device terminals.

Now I must rise and manually bump my thermostat from the nighttime setback temperature of 60F to 70F, since I am staying home today. The gas burner will come on immediately, and a couple of minutes later that big 220v fan motor will come on, blowing wonderfully warmed air into my entire 1350 square foot home. I know I should have more heating zones and one of those clever NEST thermostats, but I'll be selling the house the way it is within a year. Perhaps I will put a little more thought and invest a little more money into my next home, which is my retirement home.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Loki » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 14:23:08

KaiserJeep wrote:See what I am saying here, MD? The infrastructure that you believe we can "fall back on" simply does not exist any more. Power plants are only attached to the national grid. Cities and rural power administrations are only attached to the national grid. We CANNOT "fall back" to anything because it is NO LONGER THERE.

You seem to be contradicting yourself every other post in this thread. As you've already pointed out, there are regional grids, but there is no "national grid" in the United States. The operation of the power grid in the western interconnection is completely isolated from the eastern interconnection, or the Texas interconnection.

And even within the western interconnection there are sub-regions. The Pacific Northwest is connected to California primarily by the BPA's intertie, most of the power flowing one way (north to south). The PNW grid could easily operate independently of California, since the latter takes a lot and gives back very little (aside from cash). The transmission lines from the PNW to CA are already maxed out, so currently when we generate excess power in the PNW we have to reduce generation, either spilling water over dams or turning off wind turbines.

If things went downhill, the PNW grid could operate in complete independence from California and the rest of the West. This is not the impossible task you make it out to be because the western regional grid (and I suspect other interconnects) is not as fully integrated as you seem to think it is.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Loki » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 14:23:35

As for the OP's original question, it depends. To take some examples in my region, folks might live right next to Portland General Electric's dams on the Deschutes River, but they won't get any power directly from those dams because PGE only markets power west of the Cascades. Their customers get preference for the power PGE generates, only the excess ends up on the open market.

On the other hand, Google has built a large facility right next to The Dalles Dam because of the direct availability of the power that dam generates.

Some PUDs in Washington generate almost all of their own power from local projects, while others buy it all directly from the BPA (the agency that markets the power produced by federal dams all across the region).

So it really depends on where you get your power. There's also a fair degree of seasonality here in the Northwest, hydro producing a lot of power in the spring, not so much in the fall. So the source of one's electricity varies quite a bit depending on where and when you're talking about.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Loki » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 14:29:37

MD wrote:HVDC? I don't buy into that any more than I do fusion, as things stand today, but that's just my wild ass opinion.

What's the controversy with HVDC? The BPA uses it for one of their lines from Oregon to California.

The Pacific DC Intertie (also called Path 65) is an electric power transmission line that transmits electricity from the Pacific Northwest to the Los Angeles area using high voltage direct current (HVDC). The line capacity is 3,100 megawatts, which is enough to serve two to three million Los Angeles households and represents almost half (48.7%) of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) electrical system's peak capacity.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie


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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby sparky » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 20:24:19

.
High Voltage DC links are used when there is very very long distance to cover or one wish to connect two incompatible network , there is a DC link under the Channel connecting France to Britain and one connecting East Japan with West Japan ( they have TWO frequency system in the same country ????!!!!!! )

"I believe that in theory the larger the grid, the more inputs, the more efficient because the power can be shared to balance local peaks and valleys "

Not quite so simple if in one local 3 phase area ,wind and solar generation exceed consumption , in theory it could be stepped up to the 10Kvolt network but at a cost ,the wire network has resistive , inductive and capacitive characteristics also transformers are only 97% efficient ,so there is losses right there .

Same for the 10KV network fed from local gas turbines , small hydro , wind or solar farms ,
it can be fed into the high voltage 100.000 Volt grid if they produce in excess
again same laws , same losses with the further complication of having to oversize the gear for an intermittent supply
the Germans and the Danes are struggling with this one ,
having to pay for a trebling of the installed cost for ten percent of the used time
every generation transport and voltage change cost some efficiency
that's the first law of engineering
when work is produced , there are always losses

So Desu , your electricity come from the wire outside your dwelling , at the "point of attachment"
it can and does come from the local transformer down the road or from some neighbor down the road at some time of the day ,some day .
the transformer down the road get it from the 10.000 High voltage grid or some local producer or some step up from another suburb with plenty of solar panel , maybe , sometime

your 100.000 High voltage grid get it from the local big power stations or from the 10.000 V consumer grid if there is some to spare or from interstate if Ontario is running a deficit
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 21:52:47

Loki wrote:-snip-
You seem to be contradicting yourself every other post in this thread. As you've already pointed out, there are regional grids, but there is no "national grid" in the United States. The operation of the power grid in the western interconnection is completely isolated from the eastern interconnection, or the Texas interconnection.

And even within the western interconnection there are sub-regions. The Pacific Northwest is connected to California primarily by the BPA's intertie, most of the power flowing one way (north to south). The PNW grid could easily operate independently of California, since the latter takes a lot and gives back very little (aside from cash). The transmission lines from the PNW to CA are already maxed out, so currently when we generate excess power in the PNW we have to reduce generation, either spilling water over dams or turning off wind turbines.

If things went downhill, the PNW grid could operate in complete independence from California and the rest of the West. This is not the impossible task you make it out to be because the western regional grid (and I suspect other interconnects) is not as fully integrated as you seem to think it is.


Sigh. There actually are no contradictions in what I have said. We are using an imprecise English language to describe mathematical relationships.

First, with regard to these power interconnects:
Image
The colored areas represent administrative control regions. They CAN be operated independently if there is a pressing need to do so. However all four administrative regions are interconnected and producing power that is "in phase" with one another at least 99% of the time. That is the reason that I referred to a "national grid", because in the 99% case, that is exactly what it is, one grid for the two nations of Canada and the USA. The region control rooms have both voice and text communications with one another, and are fully staffed 24X7, and prepared to operate their area interconnect independently if required. Meanwhile, the interconnections allow them to purchase and sell power to one another.

Practically speaking, the Texas interconnect is the one selling power and the other three regions are purchasing it - most of the time. The Texas interconnect (ERCOT) has a business model that says they burn entirely too much fossil energy and sell relatively cheap power to the other three interconnects, which are troubled by air quality standards and "green energy" goals. To meet the standards to be able to sell energy to the other three interconnect regions, Texas has implemented a huge amount of both wind and solar power. Then they counted all these alternative energy energy sources at 100% capacity, and said "See, we met your alternative energy goal and you can buy our power." What actually happens, is that the wind farms and solar power stations are producing at 15% to 20% of rated capacity - which is entirely typical - and everybody is ignoring the reality of it and buying cheap energy from ERCOT, and thereby increasing their own profits.

Tricky, as if those same Texan "good ole' boys" worked for that infamous BIG OIL. Wait a minute - THEY DO.

Secondly, with regard to whether or not locally produced power is consumed locally, the answer is both YES and NO. The truth is that all of the energy sources are producing power at once, and all of the electrical customers are consuming power at once, and 99% of the time, the grid is one national grid. Just exactly how much power is supplied to any one customer from any one generator can be calculated with a complex algebraic expression that has as many terms in it as there are electrical loads and generators. This is still something we can do with computers.

We don't operate the grid that way, however. Instead we monitor how much energy is flowing between the colored interconnect regions, and note which direction the power is flowing. Then fine adjustments are made to the generator phase in each colored region so that the power produced and consumed by each region complies to the prearranged power contracts that were sold previously on the power futures exchange. On the load side, we measure how much each customer uses via a power meter.

Where the scheme is inadequate is in areas such as my neighborhood in California. Lots and lots of California residents have solar roofs like mine. Plenty of windmills exist in rural areas. Lots of schools and shopping malls have solar pavilions over their parking lots, or large solar arrays on rooftops. The contribution of these "Green" power sources is not known exactly, it can only be estimated, because the grid is not instrumented to measure power production from hundreds of thousands of "micro" sized solar or wind generators. One day it will be, after implementation of "Smart Grid" is complete.

As for me, I have one power meter (I paid for it) measuring how much power I produce, and a special "Net Metering" Smart Meter installed by my electric utility PG&E, which measures how much power I take from the grid, and deducts the amount I produce. It also charges or credits me at different "Time of Day" electric rates.

And this is really the LAST TIME I want to describe an enormously complex topic without getting into the language of mathematics. But I needed to communicate the essence: this is something that does not have a simple YES/NO answer, and the only way any of you can actually be WRONG is to insist that the answers are simple, or that my words are contradictory. English is simply inadequate to express the topics we are barely skimming the surface of.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 23:16:36

Smart meters still under 50% market penetration rate in NA, but seems to be progressing nicely.

commercial and industrial smart meter penetration rates in North America
2012: 29%
2013: 34%
2014: 39%
2015: 45%
....
2020: 72%

This forecast illustrates industrial and commercial smart meter penetration rates in North America from 2012 to 2020. Smart meter installations in the commercial and industrial sectors in North America are projected to reach 60.4 percent by 2018.
Projected commercial and industrial smart meter penetration rates in North America from 2012 to 2020

Now if we could just get our transmission infrastructure upgraded :(
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby Loki » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 23:36:13

Sigh. There actually are no contradictions in what I have said. We are using an imprecise English language to describe mathematical relationships.


LOL, you're trying to play "I'm the expert, I can't dumb it down for you any more," yada yada yada. But you're just plain wrong on the fundamental facts. Algebra and Ohm's law has nothing to do with this discussion, you're just using them to obfuscate, for reasons that are unclear to me. Irrelevant tangents.

Here in the Pacific Northwest we get zero electricity from Texas, New Hampshire, Iowa, Quebec, etc. None, nada, zip, nothing, not a single electron passes between us. Never has, never will, aside from what we import in the way of liquid fuels or natural gas. There is no national grid, never has been. Period.

Where are you pulling this stuff from? Your claims about a "national grid" are bad enough, but your claim that "everyone gets 78% of their electricity from fossil fuels" was especially erroneous. Totally divorced from anything remotely fact based. Where exactly did you get your degree from?
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 23:50:31

OK, now you have crossed over into insults, and this discussion is over. If you want to read more than some poorly written popular articles from people who understand no more than do you, then go here and play in the "Energy" Forum:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy

At least, these articles are more accurate than the typical Web popular science crap. To read further in the digital library's "Transactions on Power Engineering", you will need a paid membership.

I told you, English was inadequate. Take that to the bank, it's true.
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Re: How do you know where your electricity comes from?

Unread postby MD » Sat 07 Mar 2015, 02:57:35

Loki wrote:
MD wrote:HVDC? I don't buy into that any more than I do fusion, as things stand today, but that's just my wild ass opinion.

What's the controversy with HVDC? The BPA uses it for one of their lines from Oregon to California.


I overstated my point there, for sure.

Way back when, AC won the war over DC for one primary reason: transform-ability. Efficient conversion of DC voltage up and down requires technology that did not exist, which severely limited the amount of power that could be distributed. The biggest DC network I believe was in NY city a hundred or so years ago, but was quickly made obsolete by AC, which could easily be transformed to very high voltage levels with well insulated coils of wire, thus allowing many higher orders of magnitude power levels to be transmitted over the same size wires.

Converting AC to DC is also fairly easy. More wires and capacitors will take care of that, in a rudimentary fashion.

Converting DC back to AC in a highly efficient manner and at very high voltage levels was the difficult part. Even a couple decades ago it was still difficult and very inefficient and even impossible at high voltage. I remember frequency inverters from the seventies and eighties that operated at about 20% efficiency and were unreliable as hell. You only went to the trouble when you really needed the option badly.

Today frequency inversion is so cheap and common at lower voltages that you find them in common household appliances and even those little inverters that you can plug into your cars 12vdc system in order to supply an amp or so of 120ac.

I'm running off into details again. The topic tends to do that.

Bottom line is I don't see HVDC as being widely applied in the world moving forward. Not because it doesn't work, but because it's too late in the game.
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