[Rod_Cloutier]

Seriously people, I think peace is a better thing than war.

Let's have peace, let's let Russia keep the Ukraine, let's avoid WWIII.

Diplomacy is a lost art which needs to be rediscovered. Want the economy to collapse?- War, Want death destruction and apocalypse?- War, Want environmental catastrophe- War. Want Economic growth, freedom and prosperity- Peace

[Sixstrings]

The dumbest shit I hear sometimes. The real concern is the people spouting off this shit to promote an agenda of hatred toward Putin, provoking him at every opportunity, honestly for what? This is the road to war, and that is of concern, not the fantasy of a midair collision.

With all due respect, I have you saying it's no big deal, but on the other hand there is the secretary general of NATO saying it is a danger.

And two incidents of "near middair collision."

And I'm no pilot, but my understanding is that it's important for ATC to keep track of where flights are and at what altitude so as to avoid collisions. That's why they have ATC, and those radar screens they look at all day, and pilots have to radio in to notify of course change or altitude change.

So what are you saying, that a Delta pilot has to be looking at his radar and ready to bob and weave to avoid Russian planes?

I'm not a pilot, but I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for having air traffic control.

[Sixstrings]

Let's have peace, let's let Russia keep the Ukraine, let's avoid WWIII.

Ukraine isn't ours to give away.

The same could be said if gunboat diplomacy got worse in Australia.. what would you say.. "we don't want WWIII, let them have the Coral Sea."

Or "let China have the South China Sea, we don't want WWIII."

Here you go, Iran and North Korea, have whatever you want too -- "we don't want WWIII."

The dangerous thing about that attitude is that in one fell swoop you eradicate all the deterrence you have, with the military, you become a paper tiger. Anyone with a nuke can just have whatever they want.

Anyhow it ain't up to you or me.. you have a prime minister and his name is Stephen Harper.

And we've got a president, and a Pentagon, and they'll handle it and let us know. There was a lot of angst and debate in the cuban missile crisis, too. A lot of Americans wanted to placate Russia and not risk war. Kennedy chose to gamble it all and risk it all, to get the missiles out of cuba.

[Keith_McClary]

Ukraine isn't ours to give away.

So it's none of your business?

[radon1]

So, Six, you once wrote in your characteristic patronizing manner, that you "will take care of Ukraine". Multiple choice for you regarding how you are going to do this, pick up your option:

1) Through at them "your" mysterious billions (take them from space travel, no?)
2) Provide them blank visa free travel and work, plain and simple
3) You personally travel to Ukraine and help wounded and displaced
4) Start yet another trollish Russia-hate threat.

Oh, wait...

Btw, why wouldn't you delete this thread altogether, it's wrong and misleading from the outset including the heading. Russia does not quit G20, has no intention to, and the "US" and its coalition of the spinning have no say over the matter.

[Sixstrings]

So, Six, you once wrote in your characteristic patronizing manner, that you "will take care of Ukraine".

Not sure what you mean there. I've said: they need those trade deals ASAP, they need EU integration ASAP, and if the West is really in this then yeah they need some money.

Foreign policy fails in Ukraine if the place falls apart. Or if the people get disillusioned with the West, see no hope, and who knows maybe there's domestic unrest again and another color revolution -- to Russia's advantage. If the West is in this, then they've gotta be in it, that's a Marshall plan and build the place up and get some money in there and most important get a good business climate and some economic progress.

1) Through at them "your" mysterious billions (take them from space travel, no?)

No, I like NASA more than Ukraine.

Total foreign aid budget in 2012 was $48 billion. God only knows how much Iraq has gotten -- and Afghanistan -- both got a LOT of money in nation building and a nice shiny new army for them and all kinds of stuff.

All I'm saying Radon is that if Ukraine is in the USA's top 2 big foreign problems right now, then if you're in it you gotta be in it to win it.

There's money in the budget for Ukraine.

If they'd stuck with Yanu and pro-Russia, then Putin would be helping them out; but they came over to our side, so now we gotta help them out. Yes it will be expensive. But it's a good deal for Europe in the long run, just as Putin is putting a lot of money into Crimea. It's an investment.

2) Provide them blank visa free travel and work, plain and simple

They get that with a EU deal, just as Poles can go to Norway for work, and rest of EU.

3) You personally travel to Ukraine and help wounded and displaced

Look -- don't blame this on me, it's not my fault and it's not your fault.

I just got sucked into this thing because I empathized with those people in the Maidan, that's all. Otherwise I'm just giving good strategy advice.

If you want me to write good strategy for Russia, I'd be happy to do that and have before. I've read before that the Russian government has a good PR firm in the US -- and the PR firm says the Russians never take their advice. So whatever, I'll give Russia good advice for free.

For example: Be direct. Stop the "little green men" stuff and denying there's any Russian troops in Ukraine. The West would appreciate directness more, and could better understand that. Russia would have been better to just come out with a national security argument regarding the naval base in Crimea. The kind of arguments you see Agent writing all the time -- he gives better arguments for the Russian side than I've seen anywhere.

4) Start yet another trollish Russia-hate threat.

Oh, wait...

Btw, why wouldn't you delete this thread altogether, it's wrong and misleading from the outset including the heading. Russia does not quit G20, has no intention to, and the "US" and its coalition of the spinning have no say over the matter.

Radon -- don't get mad at me, I can't help what goes on at the darn G20 and whether things went well between Putin and the rest of world, or not. It ain't my fault.

You know how Cid has this "peak oil historian" on his avatar, well I'm just chronicling the new cold war, that's all I'm doing.

The next step in this thing is what kind of support the new Republican Congress gives Ukraine. Rest of nato won't let Ukraine join nato, so, the US is definitely going to name Ukraine a "major non-nato ally" so that they have allied status even though not in NATO.

Next up, is a question of how much foreign aid.

Then the big question -- what kind of weapons aid. And here's where I'll give some more free advice to Russia: what Putin should do is a headfake and do a bunch of peace talk overtures as soon as these Ukraine bills get taken up in our Senate. Make it look like things are getting better.. and that'll water down whatever the senate passes, and most importantly to Russia, would nix the lethal weapons aid part of it.

Then after our senate has forgotten about Ukraine and moved on to budget shutdowns and fights with Obama, Putin can go right back to what he was doing before.

But if Putin does the opposite, and just keeps ramping up tenions, then the Senate is going to pass a tough Ukraine bill. The more Putin does, the more will be in that bill.

I'm giving good strategic advice, for free, Russia can take it or not.

[Sixstrings]

And another thing Russia would be smart to do, at this point:

Just quit while it's ahead. It's important to know when to walk away from the table and keep your gains.

Keeping Crimea is actually a very big deal. There has been no annexation in the world since Kuwait, and we all know what happened there.

So why is Crimea not enough.

I've heard some on CNN say that maybe Putin wants to do an offensive to make a land corridor to connect east ukraine with Crimea.

Whatever Russian leadership's plans are, this needs to be wrapped up soon.

My advice would be for Russia to signal a hard stop with everything they are doing, make it clear they're hanging on to what they've got so far, but honestly come to the table this time and stop all the bomber flights and all the provocations and making it worse -- with Finland, Sweden, on and on.

The West desperately wants an "out," on this. And Obama too. He has honestly been dragged into this thing. The WH did not want this problem.

It's only Obama that has prevented lethal weapons aid getting passed -- do you guys realize that? Putin owes Obama a thank you on that because otherwise R's and D's were ready to do it. And now they may wind up doing it, because of Republican majority, and with the D's too that could be a veto proof supermajority.

The West wants an out, and for the war in Ukraine to stop, and to keep Ukraine on a EU track. Russia should know when it's smart to call an end to it, keep what they have, and honestly come to the table this time. Europeans and the US state dept have been dealing with Russia forever, they'll know when Russia is finally serious about peace and it's not games.

The thing just needs to end. There's no more Russia can do, anyway. The rest of Ukraine would be too hostile to any occupation. It would be an insurgent war, another Afghanistan for Russia. Russians don't want that, do they? Already about 4,000 Russian dead to 8,000 Ukrainians. If that ratio keeps up, then Russians won't support that kind of foreign war, it's too costly.

Alternatively, maybe Putin's strategy is to just never stop, maybe he will just keep at it until there's a pro-Moscow president in Kiev again, no matter how long it takes. And he'll do hybrid war and using the separatists.

One thing is for sure -- it's Russia that has been building up its military for years now. Like they've been getting ready for something. So that's ominous; if they make peace, then what are all these new weapons for? They've built this military *to use it*.

I don't know where this thing goes. It's not up to me. It's up to everyone's elected reps in their parliaments, and our congress, and over here it's up to Obama and Republicans like John McCain and Mitch McConnel.

The one thing I know for sure is that the more provocation Russia does, the more Congress will do in return. That's just a political reality.

I wish the whole thing would stop. Who wants war? We all like Russians, this is silly, but what can we do we can't throw these Ukrainians under the bus either.

[Withnail]

So, Six, you once wrote in your characteristic patronizing manner, that you "will take care of Ukraine".

Not sure what you mean there. I've said: they need those trade deals ASAP, they need EU integration ASAP, and if the West is really in this then yeah they need some money.

They already have a trade deal.

The trouble is they have nothing to sell and no money to buy anything.

Nobody wants to give them any money because they know they will just be throwing it away.

And you really need to shut up about Ukraine integrating with the EU.

We in the EU will make that decision, not you.

[Sixstrings]

They already have a trade deal.

The trouble is they have nothing to sell and no money to buy anything.

They're going to need what Poland and Hungary got -- German factories. And how IKEA has factories, in Poland, etc.

I don't know the particulars, but whatever trade deals Poland got to make all that possible, is what Ukraine needs.

If you guys don't want to do anything for them, if you don't see the long term growth potential then fair enough -- but in that case they should have been left alone and not get their hopes up.

It's no better than Russia was doing then, and Ukraine will just keep being poorest in Europe and no progress. How is that fair.

Look I know all about nafta-type arguments, from this side of the pond, but Europe is a bit different. You're not federal but you're like a confederation. Europe is stronger as a whole, when Poland is stronger. And now, Ukraine.

[Withnail]

They already have a trade deal.

The trouble is they have nothing to sell and no money to buy anything.

They're going to need what Poland and Hungary got -- German factories. And how IKEA has factories, in Poland, etc.

So what's stopping people building factories in Ukraine?

What was stopping them before the trade deal, come to that?

It wasn't as though Ukraine was behind an iron curtain since 1991.

It's no better than Russia was doing then, and Ukraine will just keep being poorest in Europe and no progress. How is that fair.

What do you mean 'fair'?

Welcome to capitalism.

Ukraine's a goldmine -- it's begging for smart efficient German business knowhow. And American companies. Look how cheap the labor is -- that's a profit goldmine.

Cheap labour is available all over the world, and bulk transport is cheap.

If Ukraine was a good place to invest there would already be investors there.

[Sixstrings]

It wasn't as though Ukraine was behind an iron curtain since 1991.

I don't know all the particulars, just that there are varying degrees of integration, with the EU.

All I'm saying here is -- there's no good reason for Ukraine to be a fail place. It's a farming breadbasket. It has industry. It's got a big population, it's like Poland it's just a lot bigger.

So why are they so poor. What is the difference.

EU raised up all these east euro countries, income wise and development, and Ukraine stayed stuck somehow for all these years, it's always been poorest in Europe other than one of those small places like Moldova or one of them, I can't remember.

Their cost of labor is so low -- there must be some kind of trade barriers, otherwise why aren't factories going into there?

I think it'll work out in the long run. Once the Germans get in there with investment and management, and American companies too. I mean yeah it's not gonna be a Denmark -- but there's money to be made there for American and European companies, and the people will benefit, they won't be poorest in Europe anymore and hopefully will keep the fair elections and get better rule of law, and human rights, and all of that too.

It's what the Maidan was all about.

[Sixstrings]

Cossacks protest in Australia, some Russian immigrants in Australia claim discrimination after the airliner was shot down. Cossack protest leader calls for end of democracy in Russia, and to support the "steel ruler" Putin. Looks like a fair article, and quotes more moderate Russians in Australia that say the cossack protesters have extreme views and don't represent other Russians.

According to the article, this Australian cossack traveled to Ukraine to fight for the rebels, and now he's back in Australia.

Abandon democracy, supporter tells Putin

A man accused of travelling to Ukraine to recruit support for pro-Russian rebels has led a G20 rally calling for the end of democracy in Russia.

About 30 Australian Cossacks, surrounded by almost as many police, marched through Brisbane's South Bank on Saturday, declaring their support for their "steel ruler", Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The group's leader, Simeon Boikov, reportedly travelled to the Ukraine this year in support of pro-Russian rebels and bragged on his Facebook page about entering the war zone.

Mr Boikov denied the media reports and said he was seeking defamation action.

"They've blamed everybody on the face of the earth except the Ukrainians for the (MH17) plane crash," Mr Boikov told AAP.

"They've blamed the rebels, they've blamed Russian jets ... Putin, and now they're blaming citizens in Australia."

Mr Boikov, who addressed his supporters in Russian, wasn't afraid to share his extreme views to media afterwards.

"We just need a steel ruler and we encourage Putin," he said.

"We don't need Russian democracy - this was an American flag that was brought in to bring pornography, drugs and immorality to the people under the guise of freedom. We want Russia to become an empire."

Mr Boikov also mocked every other world leader, including Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

"You know what they compare it to? A fly annoying a bull and the bull just waves his tail and the fly goes away," he said.

"You can guess who's the fly and who is the bull."

Several protesters at the rally were searched by police, with one also being questioned and told to remove a cloth covering his face.

Police were also on hand to keep the group separated from another, more moderate pro-Russia gathering organised by RUstralia.

Organiser Vladimir Dashkoff said his larger rally was to celebrate Russian culture, and emphasised that not all Russians shared Mr Boikov's views.

"They are not with us, we have made that quite clear," Mr Dashkoff said.

"There are a number of centre, left and right elements in every society - this is their opinion. They have quite a harsh view."

Mr Dashkoff said some Russians in Australia had been discriminated against based on how the media has reported on the Kremlin, including its handling of the MH17 plane crash investigation.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/25525210/abandon-democracy-supporter-tells-putin/

[Withnail]

It wasn't as though Ukraine was behind an iron curtain since 1991.

I don't know all the particulars, just that there are varying degrees of integration, with the EU.

All I'm saying here is -- there's no good reason for Ukraine to be a fail place. It's a farming breadbasket. It has industry. It's got a big population, it's like Poland it's just a lot bigger.

So why are they so poor. What is the difference.

The industry is useless to the EU. The plants are too outdated and nobody wants Ukrainian planes, trains, tanks or rockets.

So as far as the EU is concerned it doesn't have any industry.

Ukraine produces food. Great. Does the EU need food? I'm not sure we do given the amount produced in the existing EU.

What's more important is that Ukraine is currently in severe financial trouble and has a chronic tendency not to repay loans or pay for essential supplies like gas and coal.

Their government blusters and bloviates about paying for stuff, but nothing ever happens. No money materialises. Imports get cut off.

Then they change the subject and start raving on about this huge army they intend to build.

Really they just come across as batshit crazy.

[Sixstrings]

30,000 protest against Russia, in Georgia:

Georgians demonstrate against Russia - and own government

Around 30,000 people are reported to have turned out to the demonstration, held on one of Tbilisi's main thoroughfares on Saturday. Many carried Georgian, US or European flags, along with placards carrying slogans such as "stop (Russian President Vladimir) Putin."

Some also carried Ukrainian flags, in a show of solidarity with Kyiv, referring to Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean peninsula in March. Kyiv and the West also accuse the Kremlin of supporting pro-Russia separatist rebels in the ongoing conflict in eastern Ukraine.

The Georgian protesters had followed the call of the United National Movement party (UNM) of former President Mikeil Saakashvili, who addressed the gathering via video link-up from Ukraine.

The UNM has accused the current Georgian Dream coalition government of not doing enough to counter what it claims is Russia's creeping annexation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

"We should show the government that our nation is united, even when it faces a big threat, and when it's about our freedom, future and independence," Saakashvili told the crowd.

The former president fled Georgia after leaving office a year ago, after which criminal charges were brought against him over allegations of abuse of power.

Saakashvili, who resides in self-imposed exile in the United States, claims to be the victim of a political witchhunt.

Common defence pact

The latest specific measure that has raised concerns in Tbilisi is a proposed treaty between Russia and Abkhazia, which would create a "common defense infrastructure" and combined armed forces. It is also meant to set up a "common economic and customs space."

Georgian opponents of the move argue that it would amount to a significant step towards Russia annexing Abkhazia.

Moscow recognized both Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent countries after fighting a five-day war with Georgia in August 2008. Since then, thousands of Russian troops have been stationed in the two regions.
http://www.dw.de/georgians-demonstrate-against-russia-and-own-government/a-18067398

[Sixstrings]

Simeon Boikov and the Zabaikal Cossack Society of Australia march on G20 weekend in Brisbane.

G20 Brisbane: Cossack group says Vladimir Putin 'sent by God'

A Russian protest group whose leader is reportedly being monitored by ASIO has hit out at Tony Abbott and the United States while walking the streets of Brisbane.

"[Mr Abbott] accuses Russia of shooting down the plane, but doesn't even know what happened there," Mr Boikov said.

"God is with Putin. We believe he's sent by God to save Russia.
"Europe is very sneakily working to cause trouble and divide Russian-speaking people. We believe the glory days will be back soon."

Russian Cossacks are a traditionalist military-based group, who were persecuted by the Stalin empire but now have the backing of the Putin government.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-g20/g20-brisbane-cossack-group-says-vladimir-putin-sent-by-god-20141115-11ng5k.html

Vladimir Putin bars Australian media from attending G20 press conference
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/vladimir-putin-bars-australian-media-from-attending-g20-press-conference/story-fnmd7bxx-1227124703233

[Withnail]

Reported to moderators for flooding.

[Sixstrings]

Reported to moderators for flooding.

Cossacks marching in Australia? You don't find that interesting????

I don't want to make new threads, withnail, goodness. That's the last of the Russia news relax. And Russia news is a "flooding" development situation, ya know.. they wanted this.. Empire.. the Year of Russia.

[Withnail]

Cossacks marching in Australia? You don't find that interesting????

No, why would I?

It's of no importance.

And you've posted the same story twice.

[Keith_McClary]

Their government blusters and bloviates about paying for stuff, but nothing ever happens. No money materialises.
...
Then they change the subject and start raving on about this huge army they intend to build.

Really they just come across as batshit crazy.

Are you talking about the Harper government?

[AndyA]

Ukraine leaders are shutting down the hospitals, schools and banks etc in the south east. Sounds like some top class diplomacy to me. Russia may as well take it, nobody else wants it except as a firing range and genocidal playground. Of course none of this would have happened if the US hadn't sponsored a coup, but I suppose that is ancient history by now.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-1 ... ist-held-r