[Sixstrings]

[Now, Greece could do some perpetual leasing deal for a base with Russia in the Med; they could sell that well enough. If they take payment in ruble; they can then buy the oil, trucks, and junk from Russia that they currently import without paying their debts to the IMF, etc.

That would be a miserable north korea economy, for them. Selling olives for renminbi and rubles ain't gonna solve Greece's problems.

I still bet the EU cracks first and makes some solid concessions to Greece. (and later Spain and Italy)

Well I don't know the details other than that I'm happy to be an American where we have a strong federal union of 50 states. If there's a banking crisis, then all banks get the money they need and we don't have any "greece" or "italy" that gets the shaft versus others.

We have one social security system, for all 50 states. Europe is a confederation, and that's weak, and vulnerable to some of the states taking advantage of others. There's no national unity. And lots of infighting, and vulnerable to outside threats -- which is exactly why the USA moved from confederation to a stronger constitutional federal union so long ago.

You know, Agent, Greece could just get a bunch of money from the Federal Reserve -- but I wouldn't want to see that happen unless there are concessions for US policy in that. How do we really care what Greece does? It's already such a mess, flirting with going over to Russia, I don't like any idea of an American bailout of Greece.

We don't need fair weather allies like that. You're either with us, or you are not. And USA backs the EU. Something like a Ukraine is solidly in the US camp, but who the hell knows about Greece at this point. I don't know, I don't want to see a bunch of federal reserve bailout money for over there if they're wishy washy.

Really what needs to happen is a interest rate cut on the debt load, BUT THERE ALSO must be a final resolving of the core problems with their welfare state.

Neither Russia nor China is going to pay for Greeks on welfare.

[AgentR11]

That would be a miserable north korea economy, for them. Selling olives for renminbi and rubles ain't gonna solve Greece's problems.

What do you think Greece exports? Food & Booze are A#1 on the Greek list according to our government. NK sure as heck doesn't export Food and Booze. Heck, *WE* export Food and Booze.

Neither Russia nor China is going to pay for Greeks on welfare.

No, they won't. Don't really need to either. Greeks can go back on their own currency internally, and trade with Russia/China outside the control of those to whom they owe billions of Euro/US$.

I think doing so is a mistake; but the population of Greece voted. If we believe in Democracy; we have to accept that elected governments that come to power may sometimes oppose us, rather than support us. Or do you think the elected government of Greece should go back on its platform, like a certain Ukraine coup victim did a bit ago? Its OK to stiff your voters as long as it serves the interests of the US/France/Germany??

[Sixstrings]

I mean look -- from what I can gather, it seems like Germany has taken some advantage in the EU. But southern europe needs to make changes too. And it's all fracked up because they are a confederation and not a federal union to start with.

Germans feel taken advantage of because they work so hard, with southern europeans doing tapas bar hopping at 3am and siestas in the day and enjoying life so much.

Anyhow -- Greece should get a rate cut on its debt load, but threatening to give air bases to Russia is very tacky. They should have threatened default instead, you don't get help by saying you're gonna bounce over to Russia if you don't get what you want. Just my opinion.

[AgentR11]

Cid already debunked your work ethic thing. Greeks are no more lazy than Germans.

[Quinny]

You can debunk 6 till you're blue in the face - it makes not one jot of a difference.

[Sixstrings]

Cid already debunked your work ethic thing. Greeks are no more lazy than Germans.

Well I didn't even mean it as a slight against southern europeans; there's something to be said for just enjoying life more, art / culture and good food, afternoon siestas. But obviously, there is clearly a difference between Germany and southern Europe. The latter is a bit of a mess, the former has trains running on time and is the engine of europe.

What do you think the bottom line problem about southern europe is, Agent? Honest question. What's the root cause. They've got a mountain of debt for some reason. Here's a funny fact -- Apple (just one American company) revenues are almost the entire revenue of all Greece!

The U.S. tech giant also posted record revenue of $74.6 billion (£49.2bn) for the three months to December 31, outstripping the quarterly GDP of Israel, Greece or Denmark.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2928981/Record-iPhone-sales-drive-blowout-quarter-Apple.html

Now compare the number of employees Apple has, versus the nation of Greece. Apple: about 15k ish domestically, and what is it like 600,000 in China? Greek workforce: 5 million.

[Withnail]

What do you think the bottom line problem about southern europe is, Agent? Honest question. What's the root cause. They've got a mountain of debt for some reason.

How much debt does the US have currently?

[AgentR11]

The problem is simple. The Greek government spends more than it takes in; and spends a currency that it can not print. No country like that should enter the Eurozone. We do a similar thing except we use our own currency, and its NOT evil. Its just a different form of taxation.

[ROCKMAN]

“Greeks are no more lazy than Germans.” I would agree even though I don’t personally know many of the citizens of either country. Laziness is a human condition…not a nationality trait. But there’s another universal human condition: satisfying personal needs. And Greeks are just as vulnerable to the condition as Venezuelans. Both have been accustomed to significant financial support from their govts. Consider the huge amount of money the Venezuelan govt loses each year by selling motor fuel to its citizens for just pennies per gallon.

There’s nothing wrong with govts redistributing wealth…to a degree. The problem arises when it does so in an unsustainable manner. And that’s where Greece and other countries can run into a brick wall. My daughter works for the US govt in Greece. Yes, the folks on the bottom of the pyramid are thrilled that the new govt might open the tap wider to them once again. Unfortunately the upper level of the pyramid, the folks who own business and write all the paychecks, anticipate difficulty maintaining operations as a result of increased taxes along with diminished support of the EU monetary system. So there’s the potential to follow a path similar to Venezuela: a nice flush of govt support followed by years of sustained decline as the private sector becomes less functional. Consider the scarcity of milk in Venezuela today: the govt mandated low retail price would be great for consumers…if there were milk to buy. But since the govt destroyed the profit margin for the dairymen there is very little production.

Today the new leftist Greek govt will be doing great by its citizens TODAY. And those citizens still around some years down the road? Probably not so great.

[radon1]

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/0 ... +Greece%29

Poll: 25% of Athens school children going hungry

Thousands of Greek school children face one of the toughest aspects of the economic crisis: starvation and hunger. Last week, teachers complained for one more time about pupils who faint in the class room due to starvation. The issue of children going hungry was raised for one more time during a meeting of the Municipality of Athens with representatives of school teachers unions.

[Cid_Yama]

Greece euro exit 'looks inevitable'

A Greek exit from the eurozone appears inevitable and Britain must insulate itself from the effects, former Chancellor Ken Clarke has warned.

Asked whether the standoff would lead to a Greek exit - so-called Grexit - Mr Clarke said: "Just judging from the public statements of these latter-day Trotskyites who appear to have won the election in Greece, I can't see how that can be reconciled.

"I hope a very great deal of work is going on to minimise the impact on financial markets, on the United Kingdom - because it affects us just as much anybody else in the western world - to make sure that any knock-on effects of from their exit are minimalised.

"I can't see how you can sensibly avoid the Greeks defaulting and the Greeks having to leave the Eurozone.

link

[Cid_Yama]

Cooperation With Russia Will Help Greece Escape Western Domination

A former economic advisor to the Reagan administration believes that Western banks and governments are a threat to Greek sovereignty and to its peoples' standard of living, and that only by re-aligning itself with Russia can Greece stave off these 'marauders.'

Greece will be able to escape being dominated by "marauding" Western banks if it pursues greater cooperation with Russia and the BRICS, believes Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration.

In an article published on Thursday on his website, Roberts notes that the collapse of the Greek stock market is a warning to Greek authorities that Europe would not make any concessions to the Mediterranean states, or allow for a unilateral improvement of relations with outside powers like Russia. "The warning from the EU and Wall Street is clear: Defy us and we will destroy you," Roberts says.

Roberts notes that when it was publicized that the Greek government would include representatives of the Communist Party, and seek to improve relations with Moscow, the West launched an attack on the Greek stock market indexes and securities markets. "To remind the newly elected Greek government of the whip that is held over Greek financial markets, Greek bond and stock prices were assaulted and driven down," Roberts notes. Thus, the yield on three-year bonds rose by 2.66 points to 16.69 percent, while the Athens Stock Exchange index fell by 9.2 percent –a three year low, resulting in serious problems for banks.

Roberts believes that the Greek debt crisis is being used to confirm the non-sovereign status of the member states of the European Union, and to show that it is the populations of these countries, rather than the banks which lend to them, which are responsible for the debt burden of the state. "And these populations must accept the reduction of their living standards in order to ensure that the banks do not lose any money," the economist notes.

"This is the 'New Democracy.' It is a resurrection of the old feudal order. A few super-rich aristocrats and everyone else serfs obliged to support the ruling order," Roberts argues.

The former Reagan advisor equates the actions of Western banks and governments to those of "marauding raiders", and notes that in the elections, Syriza received 37 percent of the vote, which in his view is not sufficient to support a large-scale campaign against the predatory politics of the West. For the new Greek government, the way out of crisis is collaboration with Russia and with financial institutions offering an alternative to those of the West.

"Can Greece escape from a situation comparable to the European Dark Ages when populations were ravaged by marauding raiders? Perhaps if Greece realigns with Russia and gains financing from BRICS," Roberts notes.

Otherwise, Roberts notes, "accommodation is unlikely to occur, because a reasonable accommodation is not the desire of Washington, the EU, or of Greece's creditors."

link

[kublikhan]

Greece bridge loan talks fell apart. Greece is going to continue the old bailout program until the end of February but could face some hard decisions in March. Bail on the Euro, swallow campaign promises, Russian bailout?

Greek aid talks in Brussels ended abruptly Monday as an official from Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s government said the euro area’s proposal to extend existing bailout commitments was “absurd” and “unacceptable.”

The Greek official issued an e-mailed statement as euro-area finance ministers met and reviewed a draft text that said Greece would observe its existing bailout conditions.

Officials are trying to agree on a program of financial support to keep Greece afloat beyond the end of the month when its existing program expires. Without a deal, Greece could run out of money by the end of March, forcing Tsipras to consider leaving the euro or abandoning his promises to the electorate.

Greek Talks With Euro-Area Finance Ministers Break Up

[kublikhan]

So a deal finally was agreed on after all:

Greece and eurozone nations have agreed a deal to extend financial aid after bailout talks in Brussels. Eurozone finance ministers reached an agreement to extend Greece's financial rescue by four months. Dutch finance minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem, head of the Eurogroup, said that Athens had pledged to honour all its debts. He added that Greece had not used threats or bluff during the talks: "The four-month period will be a time to rebuild new relations with Europe and the IMF."

Sebastien Galy, a foreign exchange analyst at Societe Generale, said: "It certainly looks like we're moving away from disaster. It should help a stress that has been building up in the market to be released."

Greece wins four-month bailout extension in eurozone deal

[Cid_Yama]

All they did was extend the deadline. Greece has not agreed to return to austerity measures, nor sell off it's assets. Or postpone any of it's promised reforms. All Greece did was to say it would not default for now.

ECB decided to give themselves some breathing room. Nothing more.

ECB had already unilaterally shored up Greek banks, to protect themselves.

The agreement amounts to ECB handing money to Greece, which Greece turns around and hands back to the ECB, so that the ECB can claim Greece is honoring it's debts.

All of this to keep the EU and the Euro out of crisis for another 4 months.

It's another round of 'Let's all pretend'.

[kublikhan]

Seems to me this is more of Greece backing down than the EU. Earlier Tspiras seemed adamant that he would not extend the hated bailout.

The deal is widely regarded as a major climb down for the PM, who won power vowing to reverse budget cuts. The BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens says the government is engaged in a hard-sell to the Greek people over the deal with eurozone ministers and the IMF in Brussels.

It has had to accept supervision by its creditors - no moves without EU agreement - and a loan programme with conditions. The hard-left of the party won't like it, but the centre ground will, and Greece has staved off euro-exit for now.

The Greek Communist Party (KKE) accused the coalition, which is led by its far-left rivals Syriza, of extending the bailout without getting the loan conditions changed. "Ultimately the bill will be footed by the people, as it happened with all previous governments."

The government is already in trouble with its voters for seeking the bailout extension at all - something it swore it would never do. Costas, dismissed the deal as a "somersault that the whole world will remember".

Greek debt deal: PM Alexis Tsipras warns of 'difficulties'

[Cid_Yama]

No. Greece made NO concessions. Did NOT agree to a continuation of Austerity, did NOT agree to sell assets, Did not agree to hold off the raise in minimum wage or the rehiring and restoration of pensions.

The ECB decided to extend the deadline for 4 months, that is all. The ECB is the one who caved, but only in their own interests, to prevent/postpone the collapse of the eurozone and the Euro.

One other thing, The European Financial Commision announced that the Troika had been a bad idea and they would seek a new format. This announced by a totally seperate body as if it had nothing to do with the fact that Greece declared that they would no longer abide by the Troika. As if it wasn't part of the negotiations, that it was something the EU just came up with on it's own.

The ECB just bought itself some time, that is all.

Tsipras insisted that Friday night's last-minute agreement cancelled austerity commitments and dispensed with the "troika" - European and IMF inspectors loathed by many Greeks.

"Yesterday we took a decisive step, leaving austerity, the bailouts and the troika behind," he said in a televised statement to the Greek nation.

The Greeks will submit a list of what the WILL do instead on Monday.

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis said on Saturday he was confident his country's EU and IMF partners will accept a list of reform promises that the government must produce by Monday.

Varoufakis told reporters he expected the Eurogroup would accept the list, which is a condition for extending Greece's euro zone funding deal for four months, in a teleconference without the need for a full meeting in Brussels.

link

Since Greece did not seek this extension, it's up to the ECB to take it or leave it. Greece has other options, the EU does not. It is the eurozone and the Euro that are over the barrel, not Greece.

What YOU posted is just the Western Media doing it's 'If the truth hurts, lie' thing. It is, after all, important that the EU sell this hooey to the financial markets.

You will also notice it is not actually a done deal until and unless things work out Monday. Yet the Western Media shouts salvation on Friday and announce the defeat of those evil commies in Greece.

[Quinny]

I can handle the BAU garbage, it's the war mongering and US as the force for good that makes me want to puke!

[Cid_Yama]

It's Monday morning in Europe and the Western Media continues to hammer the nonsense about a Greek deal being completed, although such a deal has not been achieved yet.

I don't doubt the ECB will accept ANYTHING Greece proposes just to postpone the crisis. The spin is already in full force.