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Get Yer Pitchforks II

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Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Pops » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 11:50:05

So back when the left occupied wall st (well, some park at least...) I said I thought the TEAs were just very conservative versions of the typical R but that OWS was something more than just spoiled liberal hippies. I remember that Ibon said they had much in common but I wasn't so sure.

I would guess that within the Tea Party coalition you have a good 50% that will eventually be compelled to join OWS. Originally they were not right wing.


Here is an article that lays out, much better than I could, how the Trump wing of the Republican party has revealed the same anti-oligarchy views as the OWS. Seems like we are wobbling toward something new.

The Great Republican Revolt
I decided not to post a snip because most will simply comment on the snip. Go read the article then give us your informed opinion.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby GHung » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 13:24:50

Thanks for the link, Pops. Of course, the most important issues confronting Americans (and the world), such as limits to growth, will not/cannot be addressed in US politics. This is the basis of my pessimism regarding any viable future for society as we know it. Forced contraction generally brings out the worst, especially in growth-based entitled societies. Funny that the anti-immigration folks can't connect the dots; that they simply can't grok that the basis of their position is essentially a limits to growth artefact.

Too many claims...... Not enough chairs...

As for pitchforks, about the only use I'll be having for those is to turn the compost pile.
Last edited by GHung on Wed 23 Dec 2015, 13:27:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 13:27:00

Well I read the entire article and here are my impressions. Above all, this seems like a completely pragmatic and predictable development. The Middle class in this country has been slowly eroding away. They are concerned especially about economic matters. Thus their anti-immigrant stance based not so much on race but on simple economic calculus of having to share more of the pie with others. Their is also an undercurrent of distaste for the privileged classes and elites both in the political sphere and outside it. This I think is a new development and showcases how deeply troubled Americans are about their economic prospects both in the present and for the future. It seems Republicans are waking up to the fact that their representatives and their donors do not have their best interests in mind. Of course all this is set in the backdrop of a world economy that is now encountering massive resistance to continued growth. So I expect this class and economic dynamic to gain even more traction in the coming years.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Cog » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 14:00:45

The article was actually pretty good at describing how Trump came out of nowhere to disrupt the planned establishment choice of Bush to be the nominee. The Atlantic leans left but they backed up their article with facts. Well worth the read.

If you aren't a Republican it is hard to adequately describe the anger that Republican voters have at people like Mitch McConnell and Boehner. We feel completely betrayed. We gave them the House and Senate majorities they wanted and we were promised something. A reversal of Obama's policies, chiefly among them ObamaCare and immigration policy. What we got instead was accommodation. Throw in some social experimentation such as gay marriage, the black lives matter folks, and the ever present gun control lobby doing their thing, Republicans feel like the country has been turned upside down. I know old people like myself always feel the country is going down hill but a lot is happening and a lot has happened in the last few years that does not make us happy.

We didn't care if the government was shutdown. In fact we wanted it shut down until Obama compromised. But instead we got weakness from the very leaders who said they were looking out for us.

I'm not a huge fan of Trump as president. But I am a huge fan of what he has done. He has upset the plan to lose yet another election with a RINO candidate. For good or ill, most Republicans want a stark contrast between the Democrat candidate and the Republican one. If we still lose, so be it.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby GHung » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 14:16:08

Cog said; "We didn't care if the government was shutdown. In fact we wanted it shut down until Obama compromised."

Yeah, Cog, our new TP representative (Mark Meadows) felt the same way until his supporters' businesses started losing $millions when the national parks shut down, at which point he crawled to our republican governor to use state funds to re-open the parks. The Gov said hell no. Easy to advocate shutting down someone else's income streams, eh?
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 16:57:28

Cog wrote: If you aren't a Republican it is hard to adequately describe the anger that Republican voters have at people like Mitch McConnell and Boehner.... a lot has happened in the last few years that does not make us happy.


Demographically speaking, the God, Guns, and anti-Gay-marriage faction can no longer win presidential elections. And the GOP establishment realize that. Now, if you want to keep resisting the demographic reality, fine, but you're going to be increasingly marginalized whether you like it or not. So keep waving that confederate flag all you want. It won't give you the White House.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Lore » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 17:20:54

Well isn't that the problem? The center is no longer holding in the Republican Party. Even those who call themselves members of moderate conservatism are willing to tear it all down and start over. Eventually just two or three minor parties reforming.

It'll be interesting when Cruz finally has to grab the Trump nose ring and bring him down. Will that begin the next splinter group?
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 17:21:14

Cog wrote: If you aren't a Republican it is hard to adequately describe the anger that Republican voters have at people like Mitch McConnell and Boehner. We feel completely betrayed. We gave them the House and Senate majorities they wanted and we were promised something. A reversal of Obama's policies, chiefly among them ObamaCare and immigration policy. What we got instead was accommodation. Throw in some social experimentation such as gay marriage, the black lives matter folks, and the ever present gun control lobby doing their thing, Republicans feel like the country has been turned upside down.

Sorry, but I don't get it.

I'm a libertarian. Probably as right wing on financial issues like taxation as you. On social issues, not so much, which is why I suppose I don't get it.

1). What is the realistic GOP proposal to replace Obamacare? If there is no meaningful, detailed, workable proposal, then the empty words "repeal Obamacare" are pretty meaningless. People want and need healthcare. So until there is something more realistic than going back to the same POS health care policy where insurance companies were reneging on coverage if you got sick, and not being willing to cover the sick (at very high cost verses socialized systems in the first world aside from the US) that we started with -- that's pretty much a non-starter in the real world.

Did I miss it? Is there a meaningful GOP proposal out there to replace Obamacare (which I don't like either, given its complexity and randomness and negative effects like very narrow care networks)?

2). Immigration policy. You're right there. NO ONE wants to do anything MEANINGFUL about immigration policy. On either side of the aisle. So what's new there? Let's see the GOP strongly back HARSH sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegals, with a GOOD database to check on citizenry (which will cost money to maintain) -- and then you may have something. Until then, it's all lip service. (If illegals found that they couldn't get work until they became legal, IMO most of the problem would go away. IMO, the GOP wants that cheap workforce, thus they don't put a dent in the problem. I'm so surprised. :roll: )

3). Why is gay marriage hurting ANYONE? If you don't like gays, don't associate with them. This issue is as stupid as not liking tall people or black people. Give me a break. (I happen to be straight. I have gay friends, bi friends, and straight friends. Oh, and cross dressing friends.) We all just get along, once we get the vernacular down. It's not that difficult -- you just treat EVERYONE with respect, until they show through bad actions that they don't deserve the respect. What is wrong with that?

4). Guns. I, like you, want to be able to own a gun to protect myself. For me, it's in my own home or car only. (Others want CCW, etc. and as long as they are trained and sane, I have no problem with that). Now, I don't see anything substantive changing that. Talk around the margins, sure, but nothing meaningful. Did I miss something? Am I not allowed to have my gun now?

....

So I don't see it. Nothing much has changed (as usual in US politics). Lots of empty promises from both sides. So what? So HOW has the world been turned "upside down" for Republicans? I see the news pretty regularly, and I just don't see it.

(Oh, and I don't consider Fox News whining about stuff like "the war on Christmas" as substantive as long as free speech laws generally endure in the US, so you get no mileage there, IMO).

The whining tone from the right is disappointing. It reminds me of the left in past decades. Surely the far right can do better than that.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Paulo1 » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 17:24:09

Great article, and very thought provoking. The problem with Trump isn't with him being an outsider, it is that he is a lout. He is also lacking in obvious deliberation and thoughtful decision making. He frightens the hell out of people who cannot imagine him being in control of the military...(THE effing BOMB). If he became President I could see resignations in the professional military leadership. How can you respect such a man? I think he would also find ways to further enrich himself on the public teat.

Anyway...regarding statement "and they want that older country back." And how did that older country provide the wages and working conditions of years past?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... c-support/

"As of last year, however, only 11.3% of wage and salary workers belonged to unions, down from 20.1% in 1983, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. (At their peak in 1954, 34.8% of all U.S. wage and salary workers belonged to unions, according to the Congressional Research Service.) While the unionization rate among public-sector workers has held fairly steady over that 30-year span (just over a third of government workers are unionized), it’s plummeted in the private sector — from 16.8% in 1983 to 6.7% three decades later. The reasons for that decline are many and heatedly debated — from the impact of globalization on U.S. manufacturing to intense hostility from businesses to unions’ relative lack of success in organizing service- and information-industry workers."

And:
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-blue ... ing-2012-1

"But we should have all seen this coming. It didn't take a genius to figure out what was going to happen once you put American workers into the same labor pool as slave laborers on the other side of the world. After all, what greedy corporate executive really wants to pay U.S. workers ten to twenty times as much compensation just because it is the "right" thing to do?

Today, formerly great cities all over America are being transformed into hellholes while shiny, new industrial cities are popping up all over China.

For example, a couple of decades ago the Chinese city of Shenzhen was a sleepy little fishing town.

In 2012, it is a teeming metropolis of over 13 million people.

Foxconn (the builder of iPhones, iPads and many other products that we buy) runs a factory in Shenzhen that employs over 400,000 people. Most of those people work for about a dollar an hour."

Which Means: (from 2008 article)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/weeki ... .html?_r=0

That basic wage blossomed first in the auto industry in 1948 and served, in effect, as a banner in the ideological struggle with the Soviet Union. As the news media frequently noted, salt-of-the-earth American workers were earning enough to pay for comforts that their counterparts behind the Iron Curtain could not afford.

As the years passed, unions succeeded in negotiating this basic wage not as an ultimate goal but as an early rung in their wage ladders. That was the union standard, particularly in heavy industries, and in the early postwar decades nonunion employers fell into line, spreading middle-class incomes broadly through the service sector.

“The most important model that rolled off the Detroit assembly lines in the 20th century,” said Harley Shaiken, a labor economist at the University of California at Berkeley, “was the middle class for blue-collar workers.”

The high point came in the 1970s, just as the United States was beginning to lose its controlling grip on the economies of the non-Communist world. Since then the percentage of people earning at least $20 an hour has eroded in every sector of the economy, falling last year to 18 percent of all hourly workers from 23 percent in 1979 — a gradual unwinding of the post-World War II gains.

My statement:

The continual attack on Unions and unionization has been bought into by almost all segments of society. Business controls the press, media, and political process. Plus, people do not like to think that they would need a Union; that they will be appreciated for who they are and what they bring to the table. Guess what? The company owners, for the most part, naturally look out for themselves and their familes. Why wouldn't they? Once the political process was taken over by big business and off shoring was allowed, the final result is pretty obvious. A worker will not, and cannot be paid a decent wage by any company forced to compete with sub-standard wage rates in other countries.

Years ago I was flying some US helicopter pilots into a coastal logging camp. One of them left a US forestry publication in the plane. I saw an add that roughly said: "Tired of high labour costs? Do you need to bring down your labour costs? Try using our Mexican forestry workers and regain your advantage"!! This was in the early 90s.

So, the battles will have to be fought all over again. People grew complacent and believed they would be well paid forever, because they deserved to be. They either did not know, or forgot that people died for Sundays off, a 10 then 8 hour day, a forty hour week, stat holidays....whatever. And now this will have to be fought in a tougher arena and in a time of energy constraints. I would imagine it will be impossible to ever regain decent standards for wage earners in this environment. Trump(s) appear to be a magic shortcut. I'm sure Hitler had the same allure. I talked with a German refugee who became friends with my parents decades after WW2. My Dad was in D-Day (about day 3, I think) and my mom was an overseas nurse in the Canadian military. Anyway, her German friend said," we were starving, we had no jobs. And then Hitler came along and we thought he was wonderful. The factories re-opened, people had food and even cars". Of course we all know how that turned out, don't we?

I try and buy Canadian or USA tools and products whenever possible (although I do have an old Toyota PU). I shop local. I buy a Union made products whenever possible. I never shop at Walmart. I also don't shop at stores that treat their workers like shit, (In Canada that would be Sobeys).

Just an aside, I have never met a cranky or unsmiling employee at Costco: "Organized by the Teamsters, Costco is union-friendly and meets workers on an even playing field when it comes to bargaining, and as union members, they have a say in the terms and conditions of their employment. For more than 20 years, they have stood together to ensure their rights as workers are protected.Oct 30, 2013"

http://www.ufcw.org/2013/10/30/costco-a ... ifference/

And in case anyone wants to know, I have worked Union for 1/2 my life and non-Union for the other half. I have been both a Union and non-Union carpenter, pilot, sawmill worker, and teacher. The best job I ever had was non-union, flying for a friend of mine. I was treated with respect and was well paid. The worst job I ever had was a union pilot. I unionized the company because we were treated so shitty, (Teamsters 213). It was still shitty because the boss/owner was nasty mean and if he could screw people he did. Mind you, the wages and benefits improved, though. (I still quit and moved on). Mostly, it is about respect. When past employers have been short on cash and needed help I worked for nothing to help them out or until they could pay me.

People are angry because they are being shafted by a system that plays favourites for the connected. It is class warfare....all-over-again.

regards and "have a great Christmas" to all you fine people :)
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Cog » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 18:31:03

ennui2 wrote:
Cog wrote: If you aren't a Republican it is hard to adequately describe the anger that Republican voters have at people like Mitch McConnell and Boehner.... a lot has happened in the last few years that does not make us happy.


Demographically speaking, the God, Guns, and anti-Gay-marriage faction can no longer win presidential elections. And the GOP establishment realize that. Now, if you want to keep resisting the demographic reality, fine, but you're going to be increasingly marginalized whether you like it or not. So keep waving that confederate flag all you want. It won't give you the White House.


Establishment Republicans, aka Democrat Lite, won't give us the White House either. Romney and McCain proved that point all too well. If you piss off your base, which according to Cruz, Carson, and Trump numbers combined at 60%, you have no chance to win an election if they stay home on election day. If the Republicans are destined to lose in 2016, I want it to be a true conservative like Cruz representing the party.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Lore » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 18:35:16

So, what are the chances then, realistically, of the Republicans getting the White House this go round?
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Cog » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 18:36:41

Lore wrote:So, what are the chances then, realistically, of the Republicans getting the White House this go round?


Not great.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Pops » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 19:15:27

Good stuff.

I think this sorta hints at a bigger shift than just who is POTUS next.

Who runs in 2020, that will be interesting.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 19:45:52

Image

Image

Where's Ross Perot when we need him?
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Cog » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 19:51:30

There is another factor that might come into play. There is some sizable dislike of Hillary Clinton among Democrats, as evidenced by support for Bernie Sanders. Do they suddenly start liking Hillary and vote or stay at home? Or do they switch and some of them vote for Trump? Some of Bernie's economic positions are similar to Trump's. Except for the free stuff.

Hillary owns part of the Obama legacy, particularly with regards to Libya and Syria. That is going to come into play as well.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Pops » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 20:35:56

Some Ds who voted for O are just as mad as Rs. Obviously the Black Lives Matter people are mad. HC is yooooge with the blacks.

Others folks are mostly disappointed. Peaceniks, Civil libertarians, Universal healthcare (as opposed to universal mandatory insurance) advocates, Anti-corporatocracy groupies, Liz Warren-ish populists.

I pay way too much attention to this stuff so I have no idea what other people think, or if they think about it much. Here is some polling

That poll says only 8% of Ds wouldn't support HC, but a very large 28% of Rs would definitely not support DJT no matter what. That seems pretty well that.

But the bigger point on this topic is not that Sanders is getting 30% of the HC vote, she'll get most of that, the point is he is getting that amount of support at all. That seems as huge to me as DJT potty-mouthing and Don Rickles-ing his way to 30-40% or whatever. I said Sanders would get nowhere because: Socialist

He is a socialist and getting 30% of the D poll with probably about 5 blacks in the lot, lol. His whole schtick is anti corporation, class war. It is much more thought out, reasoned, well worn— Lived— than DJT's new-found stand up routine.

Still they are both true insurgents in the midst of the dynasties and wannabe rulers who kowtow to the ownership.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby GregT » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 22:05:05

The Oligarchs don't care who wins, Rs or Ds. They both work for the same companies. Divide and conquer, and slight of hand. Two of the oldest tricks in the book. Vote for real change, or continue down the same old road.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 22:28:27

GregT wrote:The Oligarchs don't care who wins...


Actually, the oligarchs do care who wins.

You can tell who the oligarchs want to win by following the money---- for instance on the D side, billionaires have given hundreds of millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation, the Clinton campaign, and pro-Clinton super pacs and just about nothing to Bernie Sanders.

Sanders gets all his money from regular folks, Hillary gets most of her money from the oligarchs.

The oligarchs want Hillary to win. The oligarchs don't want Bernie Sanders to win.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Cog » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 22:30:44

It won't be a boring election. The most boring election I can remember was Dole versus Clinton.
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Re: Get Yer Pitchforks II

Unread postby Timo » Wed 23 Dec 2015, 23:14:29

Secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy and censorship. When any government or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man who has been hoodwinked in this fashion; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, whose mind is free. No, not the rack nor the atomic bomb, not anything. You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.
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