[evgeny]

A very good article on guardian. by Simon Jenkins Guardian



The war for oil, robbery and destruction of hundreds thousands people on the brazen-Saxon concepts - it turns out, "modern diplomacy."

[efarmer]

Iraq and Afghanistan are in my opinions Neocon stimulus programs for the US economy.

[Plantagenet]

Iraq and Afghanistan are in my opinions Neocon stimulus programs for the US economy.

If so, then they've been as ineffective as Obama's failed trillion dollar stimulus program--

The "recovery summer" we were promised by Obama and Biden has turned out to be a dud----no jobs and no recovery in sight---- all this administration is producing on the economy is ever bigger deficits and more and more debt.

[efarmer]

Interesting views Pstarr.

I do find we are hopelessly separated on our views with regard to ice cream consumption.
I am an ice cold, double fudge, cone above the belt during intake, traditionalist.

[yeahbut]

Iraq and Afghanistan are in my opinions Neocon stimulus programs for the US economy.

I have heard so many theories about reasons for the invasion of Iraq, and none of them make sense on their own. Not oil, not economic stimulus, most certainly not terrorism or WMD.

For me, the most convincing reason is ideology. The attitude of the neocons who seized the opportunity provided by 9/11 was that this was their chance to create that "New American Century" they had dreamed of. If the means to wage war and bring the gift of democracy was there, it should be exercised. That it was going to be happening in an area rich with oil, and providing immense amounts of money for the military-industrial complex- well, all the better.

Of course, as with all ideological thinking, it was fatally compromised by it's lack of connection to reality. People don't welcome you with flowers when you tear their country and their people to shreds. What an utter(and utterly predictable) disaster this misadventure has been.

Iraqis are marginally freer than in 2003, and considerably less secure. Two million remain abroad as refugees from seven years of anarchy, with another 2 million internally displaced. Ironically, almost all Iraqi Christians have had to flee. Under western rule, production of oil – Iraq's staple product – is still below its pre-invasion level, and homes enjoy fewer hours of electricity.
Some 100,000 civilians are estimated to have lost their lives from occupation-related violence. The country has no stable government, minimal reconstruction, and daily deaths and kidnappings. Endemic corruption is fuelled by unaudited aid. Increasing Islamist rule leaves most women less, not more, liberated. All this is the result of a mind-boggling $751bn of US expenditure, surely the worst value for money in the history of modern diplomacy.

[PrestonSturges]

The only thing that the GOP cared about in the 1990s was bringing down Clinton with a string of freefloating investigations. The neocons were planning for war in the Middle East, any war, but they wanted Iraq. It was the nixon crowd and people like William Kristol and PNAC that loudly advocated attacking Iraq starting in 1998, especially if there was a "Pearl Harbor" event. Not saying the GOP planned 9-11, but they were praying for something like 9-11.

The dems wanted more sanctions which certainly would have worked since there wasn't any problem with WMD.

[jbrovont]

I'm sure this sounds like a broken record after eight years, but cui bono? Behind every action of intent, is a reasoning.

[yeahbut]

I'm sure this sounds like a broken record after eight years, but cui bono? Behind every action of intent, is a reasoning.

Cui bono indeed. So, to whom is it of advantage, in your opinion?

[jbrovont]

I have lots of opinions, but ultimately they're based on circumstantial evidence and suspicions. I suspect that I haven't benefited from the Iraq/Afghan wars in any quantifiable way - quite the contrary. A few military contractors have made fortunes on the conflict. Some politicians have certainly capitalized on it. Al Qaeda seems to be alive and well despite our efforts, so I imagine those involved in their supply chains are also enjoying increased business. Iran, North Korea and other opponents of western influence have been able to exploit the wars to influence international opinion, and Hezbolah even managed to rally support for a short-lived skirmish with Israel. Afghan poppy farmers are back in business after being nearly eliminated by the Taliban prior to the invasion. Oil speculators have had a couple of solid bull runs based on supply fears from instability and increased demand from military operations. It's a diverse list, and I'm sure it's only scratching the surface.

Who do you think has benefited?

I'm sure this sounds like a broken record after eight years, but cui bono? Behind every action of intent, is a reasoning.

Cui bono indeed. So, to whom is it of advantage, in your opinion?

[yeahbut]

:) I have lots of opinions, but ultimately they're based on circumstantial evidence and suspicions. I suspect that I haven't benefited from the Iraq/Afghan wars in any quantifiable way - quite the contrary. ... It's a diverse list, and I'm sure it's only scratching the surface. Who do you think has benefited?

I agree with your list of beneficiaries, but I think it demonstrates that 'following the money', as it were, is only so helpful when trying to find the reasons for the invasion of Iraq. North Korea and Hezbolah may have benefited, but I feel safe in stating that they didn't sit down with Rove and Cheney and nut out Desert Storm.

I think that the neocons really did believe America would profit hugely while bringing democracy, peace and the golden arches to a grateful nation, at gunpoint. A triumph of ideological thinking over the real world. Genuine delusion, IMO.

[evgeny]

Porn Sales Provide Insight Into Iraq's Politics Huffington Post

There we are, gentlemen. Pornography, rampant stupidity of the population, stoped production ... What else we can add to the American-style criteria of democracy?

We look forward to also:
- Opening McDonalds in Baghdad
- Iraq's first gay pride parade
- Condemning men of sexual harassment against a women who is his wife
- Drug production

The Council of Europe demands to withdraw from the vocabulary word “father” and “mother” C Nobbi

Comments (from the international forum "hockey fans") comments

Liberalism in Europe becomes so ugly appearance, it looks like agony and psychosis, when the patient begins to think not to survive, and what the neighbors will thought of him and how he will look at the tombstone photographs.

[Fishman]

Oh Evg, I so look forward to your posts. We haven't collapsed here in the US nearly as quick as you guys collapsed after invading Afganistan. As for reason, who knows. You guys liked fighting wars for resources, everyone does.
And if you guys had won in Afganistan, we could have looked forward for the first muslim nation to become all alcoholics.

[Timo]

Take a look at the lyrics of the U.S. National Anthem. It is four sentences long. Three of those four sentences are questions. The underlying subject of each sentence is our nations survival during a time of war. In that sense, this nation exists for no other purpose than to be engaged in a war, somewhere, for some reason, practically all the time. It's who we are. It's what we do. Oil is simply the cause de jour.

[Plantagenet]

this nation exists for no other purpose than to be engaged in a war, somewhere, for some reason, practically all the time. It's who we are. It's what we do. Oil is simply the cause de jour.

"you got a problem with that, pilgrim?"

[Fishman]

The national anthem was written by a guy being held by the opposing military. He simply asked will my country survive? I think a reasonable question when one is attacked.
Pstarr, not sure where you got your information about stds and bjs. Its not accurate, but you did use the term "modern diseases." If you mean hiv, perhaps. Your knowledge base of stds would explain all the disease addled minds of liberals, and especially Clinton. I assume you approve of raping women as he was accused of such by several women. You sexist pig.

[americandream]

Iraq and Afghanistan are in my opinions Neocon stimulus programs for the US economy.

If so, then they've been as ineffective as Obama's failed trillion dollar stimulus program--

The "recovery summer" we were promised by Obama and Biden has turned out to be a dud----no jobs and no recovery in sight---- all this administration is producing on the economy is ever bigger deficits and more and more debt.

Give Obama his due. Were he to do anything radical in terms of departing from the conservative free market (plunder the tax paying workingman so as the rich can get richer) meme that rules America, I can see you fellahs going ballistic. No matter what he does, he is going to be unpatriotic, incompetent, an illegal alien and such like.

In essence, Obama inherited a country being run by shysters and crooks due to conservatives having stripped the place of any regulatory control. It's a bloody mess. It is like raising a family with no discipline. he has a Republican Congredd (whom it appears have done enough to alienate regular America http://coloradoindependent.com/83812/po ... sional-gop) breathing down his neck every time he takes a crapper. It's bloody amazing that the guy maintains some sense of decorum with you nutcases yapping at his heels.

I don't rate American social democrats much, but beside you upper class peons, they are political sophisticates.

[Green Energy Reports]

With the advent of new technologies, the oil wars will be winding down. Our next generation of imperialistic adventures will be to secure and monopolize fresh clean water which will eventually cost more per gallon than oil.

[Shar_Lamagne]

No one can beat the French National Anthem

English lyrics

Now you know why it pissed the Germans off so much in Casablanca.

La Marseillaise

All you right-wing apologists, I can't wait to hear you whining, "What? What? But we're supposed to be exempt from all that third world sweatshop slavery." "Not me, I've been a good Republican, surely I should be exempt." As they they chain you to your machine and the Koch brothers laugh all the way to the bank.

[Cid_Yama]

L' Internationale - English literal translation

Stand up, damned of the Earth
Stand up, prisoners of hunger
Reason thunders in its volcano
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us make a clean slate
Enslaved masses, stand up, stand up
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

There are no supreme saviours
Neither God, nor Caesar, nor tribune.
Producers, let us save ourselves
Decree the common salvation
So that the thief expires,
So that the spirit be pulled from its prison,
Let us fan the forge ourselves
Strike the iron while it is hot

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

The State oppresses and the law cheats
Tax bleeds the unfortunate
No duty is imposed on the rich
The rights of the poor is an empty phrase
Enough languishing in custody
Equality wants other laws:
No rights without duties, she says,
Equally, no duties without rights

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

Hideous in their apotheosis
The kings of the mine and of the rail
Have they ever done anything other
Than steal work?
Inside the safeboxes of the gang,
What work had created melted.
By ordering that they give it back
The people want only their due.

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

The kings made us drunk with fumes,
Peace among us, war to the tyrants!
Let the armies go on strike,
Stocks in the air, and break ranks
If they insist, these cannibals
On making heroes of us,
They will know soon that our bullets
Are for our own generals

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

Workers, peasants, we are
The great party of labourers
The earth belongs only to men
The idle will go to reside elsewhere
How much of our flesh have they consumed,
But if these ravens, these vultures
Disappeared one of these days
The sun will shine forever

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The International
Will be the human race