americandream wrote:
The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.
Plantagenet wrote:So when a group of poor, devout Muslims in Brussels blow up innocent wealthy people waiting in line for their boarding passes at the Brussels airport, who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed?
Plantagenet wrote:americandream wrote:
The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.
So when a group of poor, devout Muslims in Brussels blow up innocent wealthy people waiting in line for their boarding passes at the Brussels airport, who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed? :idea:
americandream wrote:
Islam predates capitalism, it is largely hereditary, feudal, conquistidorial and minimally based on reason (a sort of early incarnation of reason with rules mostly subjective and based on speculation, the speculations of a number of religious persons.)
In contrast, Capitalism arrived later (after the Reformation and Enlightenment, is bourgeoisie (who are of revolutionary effect on world culture) and meritorious (in as much as endless innovation is constantly replenishing the ranks of capitalists limiting their capacity to hold wealth in for any length of time (subject of course to the rules on consolidation which take on a systemic significance as capitalism approaches its limits to surplus).
careinke wrote:AD, I would be interested in the basis for your claim "Islam predates Capitalism."
The Prophet Mohamed's first wife, Khadija, ran one of the largest caravan enterprises in the ME. Mohamed was one of her workers. He relied on her wealth during their 25 years of monogamous marriage. Maybe we have different definitions, but she sounds like a capitalist to me. During this time there was lots of trading and commerce going on across the Arabian Peninsula. Some were making lots of money based on enterprise.
What about the merchants Jesus was so upset with? Would you consider them capitalists, how about Sodom?
So, IMHO capitalism existed well before Islam. Perhaps our disagreement is based on different views of what capitalism is.
radon1 wrote: - "They were the "financial sector" rather than "capitalists". Capitalism involves technological division of labor on a mass scale, to address the waves of demand.
ROCKMAN wrote: I see no difference between those camel jocks and the hands that drive the trucks that pick oil from those ExxonMobil wells:
radon1 wrote:ROCKMAN wrote: I see no difference between those camel jocks and the hands that drive the trucks that pick oil from those ExxonMobil wells:
Vast difference actually. Camel journey's involved no technology, while driving a truck involves a great number of technologies operated on vast scales.
ralfy wrote:Capitalism also involves control of property through physical force
GregT wrote:ralfy wrote:Capitalism also involves control of property through physical force
Capitalism also requires the exploitation of natural resources, (many of which are finite) and other people's labour.
Eventually capitalism will reach natural limits, (of which climate change is one) and those who have been exploited will revolt. Yet again.
Wash, rinse, repeat, until the natural limit is finally met for our entire species survivability. At that point, capitalism will have finally run it's course. Insatiable human greed will have won.
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