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Page added on June 30, 2019

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The Real Climate Debate

Public Policy

That lump in your throat you feel listening to someone laying down hard truth in a poetic way is actually the one piece of the human genome most likely to rescue us.

Climate came up only briefly in the first two Democratic debates. In the first, Rachel Maddow asked whether the candidates had a plan to save Miami. In the second, the moderators asked less than half of the candidates to briefly explain their position on the issue and the first of those (Kamala Harris), after her standard climate soundbite, pivoted to North Korea and Russiagate. Biden and Sanders saw it as a green energy issue—we just need more electric cars.

A more serious and determined debate has been going on outside, as a new wave of scientist-engineers surge through international conferences and refereed journals testing theories about how to recover some hope to sustain life aboard our damaged spacecraft before it passes a yet-unlocated threshold beyond which there is no recoverability.

The new tech they are pimping might be categorized generally as geoengineering, but that tends to toss both wizards and prophets into the same bag, so perhaps the tech side should be split between natural solutions and artificial ones. For carbon dioxide removal, the natural ones are afforestation/reforestation, soil rejuvenation, biochar, holistic management, chinampas, and marine permaculture. The artificial ones are BECCS (Biomass Energy with Carbon Capture and Storage), DACCS (Direct Air Carbon Capture and Storage), and enhanced weathering. To delay the inexorable impact, solar radiation management is a separate category from carbon dioxide removal, and includes things like painting cities white to reflect sunlight (which would not even approach balancing the loss of sea ice at the Arctic), spraying reflective particles into the stratosphere or over large ice masses (which has to be continuously repeated, at great expense, or the bottled-up heat returns in a rapid surge), and seeding the oceans with megatons of iron sulfate to stimulate plankton and algae (another perilous treadmill—get off it if only if you want to die)

And apart from that stage, a different discussion is happening amongst what I would call the realists, although others may just call doomers. In an open letter to David Wallace-Wells published in The Ecologist, April 4, 2019, eco-scientists Rupert Read, John Foster, and Jem Bendell chastised the best-selling author of The Uninhabitable Earth for donning what they considered rose-colored glasses.

We are unconvinced by your claim that because we engineered this mess, so we must be able to engineer an escape from it. While that may be a neat journalistic turn of phrase, it is logical nonsense.

Climate change was not intentionally engineered by humanity. The self-reinforcing feedbacks that are further heating our world show us how the complex living system of Planet Earth is beyond direct human control. So, we have no precedent for humanity intentionally engineering global change.

We understand you may wish to offer your readers some hope. However, your argument offers a continuing license for the hubris which has led humanity into climate-peril in the first place.

You point out that since “a decarbonized economy, a perfectly renewable energy system, a reimagined system of agriculture and perhaps even a meatless planet” are in principle possible, we have “all the tools we need” to stop tragedy in its tracks. And yet that would require us, as you also sardonically note, to rebuild the world’s infrastructure entirely in less time than it took New York City to build three new stops on a subway line.

Harsh words. After reading both Wallace-Wells’ Uninhabitable Earth and Bendell’s Deep Adaptation, I feel the critics probably went over the top. They are accusing Wallace-Wells of hanging on to unrealistic hopes while not making adequate preparations for the likelihood that those will prove groundless. I don’t think Wallace-Wells shied away from urging adequate preparations at all. And to hoist Bendell’s petard (whose ideas are not novel despite his overnight celebrity but should really be attributed to Guy McPherson), his advice is to “give up all hope of solutions without giving up on hope itself,” which is giving up on the prospect of adequate solutions, or more precisely, that humans have the genetic capability of accepting them and changing in time. I know, it’s a mind-bender. That’s why these guys get paid so much to philosophize in academia.

Readers of this blog will know that I am of the opposite persuasion. Thanks to what we have discovered about epigenetics, we have not arrived at a predetermined genetic cul-de-sac. We can, to borrow from John Lilly’s sensory-deprivation tank studies, “re-metaprogram the human biocomputer.” Thanks to what we have discovered about memes, temes, ecosystem regeneration camps, and ecovillages (now being installed in China at breathtaking speed), we are not limited by the cultural inertia of human history since Sumer. And thanks to natural climate solutions of the kind I listed above, especially biochar in all its potential applications, we are not constrained by any shortage of technical solutions, without resort to geoengineer quackery. We know precisely the acreage of forests required and the rates of planting and watering we are capable of. We know how to address the ocean feedback mechanism (exsolvation) with biochar and kelp forests. We know how to pull the fossil fuel IV out of our arm and go cold turkey without getting delirium tremens.

What we don’t know, is how to stop the quarreling and get it done. In this, I think Wallace-Wells and his critics agree. So would McKibben (Falter), Diamond (Upheaval), or Jamail (The End of Ice). Our impediments are mainly behavioral, not technical. McKibben’s approach is to take to the streets, where we can see inspiring protests by Greta Thunberg’s School Strike and Extinction Rebellion. I question, though, whether street protest really works or just makes people feel good by agitating their tribal instincts. Diamond says the problem is (putting on my best Strother Martin impersonation) “a failure to communicate,” for which he lays blame to social media and cheap airline flights. Agreed, Facebook global hegemony and the banalization of the commons is making it far worse, but it is hopeful to see Elizabeth Warren and others going after the Googazonbook social media combines and threatening to break them apart. Jamail says the upside of the fixing response is an upwelling of the human spirit. He gives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s New Green Deal as an example. That lump in your throat you feel listening to someone laying down hard truth in a poetic way is actually the one piece of the human genome most likely to rescue us.

In a Truthout essay published last March, Jamail wrote:

Anyone who thinks there is still time to wholly remedy the situation must answer the question: How do we remove all the heat that’s already been absorbed by the oceans? Invigorated activism, as heartening and important as it is, is not going to completely stem these tides.

Thus, the third level of activism, adaptation, comes into focus.

Adaptation is new territory. Here is the realm of healing, reparation (spiritual and psychological, among other ways) and collaboration. It is strangely rich with a new brand of fulfillment and unprecedented intimacy with the Earth and one another. It invites us to get to the roots of what went astray that has led us into the sixth mass extinction. Given that with even our own extinction a very real possibility, even if that worst-case scenario is to run its course, there is time left for amends, honorable completions, and the chance to reconnect in to this Earth with the utmost respect, and in the gentlest of ways.

Read, Bendell and Foster conclude their open letter to Wallace-Wells with this piece of advice:

It is not that acknowledging the hard truths which you present so starkly might still enable us to avoid climate disaster. For that it is, as in practice you so clearly demonstrate, now too late. Rather, it is the hope that through accepting the inevitability of such disaster for our present civilization, we may yet find our way to genuinely transformative change, capable of avoiding terminal catastrophe for humanity and the biosphere.

The sooner we realize that humanity won’t have a Hollywood ending to climate change, the more chance we have to avoid ours becoming a true horror story.

In that, I think we can agree.

It may be that when we no longer know what to do
we have come to our real work,
and that when we no longer know which way to go,
we have begun our real journey.
The mind that is not baffled is not employed.
The impeded stream is the one that sings.

― Wendell Berry

The Great Changeby Albert Bates

97 Comments on "The Real Climate Debate"

  1. Cloggie on Tue, 2nd Jul 2019 12:40 pm

    “Destination trouble: Can overtourism be stopped in its tracks?”

    Of course it can, two flies in one stroke: introduce a stiff carbon tax.

    Next introduce a carbon neutral air fuel cycle and so-called “slots”:

    Let’s say, on Monday slots airlines are obliged to fly on carbon neutral fuel, at 2 times normal ticket price (“flying moral” aka “flying green”). The same people who train travel first class (to avoid contact with the hoi polloi) will love flying on Monday too and happily pay the price and thus get a new business cycle going, where Joe Sixpack will fly to Vegas on other days. Later you can gradually expand the Monday regime to other weekdays.

  2. Davy on Tue, 2nd Jul 2019 12:48 pm 

    “Joe Sixpack will fly to Vegas”

    Just repurpose Las Vegas into a ghost town.

  3. Cloggie on Tue, 2nd Jul 2019 12:58 pm

    “June was hottest month ever recorded on Earth, European satellite agency announces”

  4. makati1 on Tue, 2nd Jul 2019 7:02 pm 

    I can support that fact. Here in the Philippines, it hit the mid 90s most every day in June. That is a few degrees above average.

    We have now moved into the wet season and it has dropped about 6-7 degrees. highs in the upper 80s. Nice!

  5. Davy on Wed, 3rd Jul 2019 5:33 am 

    “Repurposing Old Oil Tankers As Renewable Energy Hubs” clean technica

    “ShipEco Marine has a better idea — cut large holes in the hull of these behemoths, build watertight silos inside, and let the waves passing beneath them compress the air inside those silos. The air pressure can then be harvested to run electrical generators. Think of it as wind turbines that operate horizontally. “The current problem with most wave energy projects is that they are fixed in place, close to the shore so they can be connected to the electricity grid,” Andrew Deaner, managing director of ShipEco Marine, tells the BBC. “This isn’t necessarily where the best waves are. With a ship you are mobile, so you can move to the edge of low pressure weather systems where the waves are bigger and there is more energy.” “It works like a giant piston,” says Florent Trarieux, a renewable energy engineer who has tested the “waveship” concept in scale models at Cranfield University. “We would put a turbine at the top of the chamber that is driven by the air as it is pulled back and forth by the water. We could put these in columns all down the length of a ship like an oil tanker.” Those laboratory tests have shown the “waveship” concept is at least feasible.”

  6. Davy on Wed, 3rd Jul 2019 5:34 am 

    I am not sure about the tech on the above but I like the salvage concept of this repurposing of a very expensive structure. It is like it used to be with home economics and food use. In the old days when good food was expensive nothing went to waste. Cooks knew how to use food leftovers. We as a civilization need to start considering ways to repurpose the many gadgets we have created. When or if complexity and net energy falls below a certain level repurposing and salvage could utilize infrastructure that is still useful. Even if complexity does not fail us we still could have more conservation/efficiency bang for the buck by repurposing and salvage. It is central to my REAL Green effort here on the farm. I save anything that may have a future use. This is of course within reason. Saving stuff needs to fit into a certain degree of ascetics and organization. I also discard things that show little promise in the other REAL Green effort of clearing out the clutter to make sure you are lean and mean. No, Annoy, I don’t have old cars on blocks but I do have a place where hardware is kept for future use in maintenance, repair, and new construction.

  7. Davy on Wed, 3rd Jul 2019 5:39 am 

    “Record-breaking temperatures for June” faster than expected
    “SNIP: Data provided by the Copernicus Climate Change Service (C3S), implemented by the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts on behalf of the European Union, show that the global-average temperature for June 2019 was also the highest on record for the month. It was about 0.1°C higher than that of the previous warmest June, in 2016, following a strong El Niño event. The map of temperature anomalies highlights just how unseasonably warm the end of the month was. Compared to the average for the same five days during 1981-2010 (the standard 30-year climatological reference period), temperatures of 6-10°C above normal occurred over most of France and Germany, northern Spain, northern Italy, Switzerland, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Looking at the temperature data from a longer-term perspective reveals the month to be even more unusual. Merging the latest C3S data with datasets that extend further back in time shows that the June 2019 European-average temperature was more than 3°C higher than the average for 1850-1900.”

  8. Robert Inget on Wed, 3rd Jul 2019 10:22 am 

    END Natural-gas-flaring:

    A few years ago North Dakota faced a similar problem. Nighttime satellite photos revealed what looked like a new, brightly lit city in an uninhabited part of the country. Although regulators typically allow flaring for limited periods of six months or so, volumes of wasted gas continue to grow. By one estimate, the natural gas currently being flared in the Permian could power every home in Texas. The Texas Railroad Commission (RRC) regulates flaring permits. Oil drillers routinely request and receive permission for flaring where they can argue that oil can be profitably produced but there’s no take-away infrastructure for natural gas.

    In theory, flaring requests can be challenged although they never are. Last week the RRC heard an application which raised an interesting question whose resolution could have a profound impact on such permits in the future. Exco Operating Company, LP sought a flaring permit on the basis of unavailable pipeline infrastructure. Unusually, it was protested by Williams Companies (WMB) who owns a nearby gathering and processing network. You can watch a video recording of the hearing here. Go to Item 9.

    It turned out that a gathering pipeline was available to transport the associated natural gas, but Exco felt the economic terms were unfair. As the owner of the only available pipeline, Exco argued that WMB could charge an unfairly high price. Natural gas pricing at the Waha hub in Midland, TX has often been negative this year, meaning gas producers have to pay to offload their output. So it’s likely Exco was balking at pricing that reflected the paucity of options.

    This led to an interesting dialogue between the RRC commissioners and representatives of Exco and WMB. The RRC has traditionally been charged with minimizing the waste of oil and gas. Natural gas flaring has been allowed because it’s necessary to access the crude oil. But Exco’s argument was one of economics. Implicit in their flaring request was that disposing of the natural gas would cost them more than its value.

    As one commissioner noted, if flaring permits were based on economic hardship, there would be no need to have an approval process because companies would simply flare when that provided a better return than accessing a pipeline. And yet, the RRC is charged with regulating flaring, which means there must be some other, non-financial framework they’re intended to follow.

    It was fascinating to watch both lawyers and the commissioners spar over this issue. WMB noted that the pipeline had been built at a cost of $1.5BN in order to gather gas from wells such as Exco’s, and said that Exco could have built their own takeaway pipeline early in the process but chose not to.

    The RRC recognized the fundamental question raised by WMB’s challenge to Exco flaring application. It seems that however it’s resolved, it will set a precedent for future applications. Exco’s view would negate the need for the RRC to regulate flaring, since the decision would be a financial one for the company. WMB’s view would require drillers to access a gathering system where available even if pricing was unattractive.

    The RRC decided to pass on the case at its first hearing, leaving it currently unresolved. When they meet to reconsider, the result could be far-reaching. If the RRC requires drillers to use available gathering and processing networks regardless of economics, as WMB wants, that would be good for pipeline investors.

  9. Cloggie on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 4:45 am 

    How to stop climate change in its tracks?

    Simple, plant 1 trillion trees!

    “Got An Overheating Planet? Plant 1 Trillion Trees. Problem Solved”

    These trees would suck up 2/3 of all industrial sourced CO2 in the atmosphere, a real solution.

    1 trillion trees means 143 trees per human. That’s a Saturday afternoon.

    Our beloved leaders giving the good example. Unfortunately, the tree planted by Macron and Trump, symbolizing the eternal French-American friendship, has died. Omen?

  10. Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 6:05 am 

    “Anchorage hits an official 90 degrees for the first time on record” faster than expected

    “Anchorage’s new highest temperature on record — after rounding – is now 90 degrees on Independence Day, 2019. The previous record of 85 was set on June 14, 1969. The average high for July 4 in Anchorage is 65.”

  11. Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 6:25 am 

    “Abandon All Hope: Moving Toward an Existentialist Environmentalism” resilience

    “We may be less prone to falling into despair and inaction if we embraced the absurdity of this situation rather than depend on hope of emerging from it victorious. This is not to capitulate to the fatalistic laziness of nihilism or denial. In fact, what we do matters very much. None of this is to say that we shouldn’t recycle, subscribe to renewable energy suppliers, or take public transport to work rather than drive. However, what matters is not its impact something but the doing itself.”

    “However, rather than give up, yielding to the inevitability of defeat, Albert Camus suggested that we imagine Sisyphus happy as he strides back down the mountain to bear his load again. This is how he can liberate himself from the oppressive shackles of his fate. If we forgo expectations of having a meaningful impact, what is left is the work itself and the satisfaction of doing a good thing well. Sisyphus’ curse is self-imposed by despising rather than accepting the situation’s intractability. Camus argues that the way victory can be achieved in this unwinnable situation is to revolt against the assumption that this failure was an outcome to be dreaded, saying, “There is no fate that cannot be surmounted with scorn.” As a result, we become resilient to the challenges and failures that we will inevitably encounter upon this path.”

  12. Frank on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 9:19 am 

    How about listening to Tony Heller

  13. Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 10:30 am 

    Thanks for the link Frank. It’s important that discussions are always kept fair and balanced, at least it is to me. Others here, not so much.

  14. JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 10:42 am 

    Oops sorry. I am JuanP not Davy. Well, I am starting the day off again with my forum identity theft games. Like yesterday was not What can I say I am a obsessive compulsive stalker

    “Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 10:30 am
    Thanks for the link Frank. It’s important that discussions are always kept fair and balanced, at least it is to me. Others here, not”

  15. Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 10:52 am 

    Go away juanpee. We don’t want you posting your shit on the board anymore, and get out of my country. Miami playboy dirty wetback illegal gimmigrant.

  16. JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:03 am 

    Oops, I am JuanP not Davy. I know this but I love to be naughty.

    “Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 10:52 am
    Go away juanpee. We don’t want you posting your shit on the board anymore, and get out of my country. Miami playboy dirty wetback illegal gimmigrant.”

  17. Not Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:17 am 

    juanpee pretending to be me stealing identities. Identity theft is child like behavior.

    JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 10:42 am

    JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:03 am

  18. Gallup Poll on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:23 am 

    Let’s take a vote. How many members approve of this identity theft JuanP is doing today?

  19. More Davy Sock Puppetry on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:25 am 

    Gallup Poll on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:23 am

  20. Not Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:29 am 

    Gallup Poll on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:23 am

    Sock puppeteering is Child Like Behavior.

  21. Juanp on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:59 am 

    Oops, I am JuanP not Davy

    More Davy Sock Puppetry on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:25 am

    Gallup Poll on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:23 am
    Not Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:29 am

    Gallup Poll on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 11:23 am
    Sock puppeteering

  22. JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:04 pm 

    Oops, sorry everyone. JuanP, not Juanp. I get real mixed up some times. I can’t help myself.

  23. website on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:09 pm 

    This site really has all the information I needed about this subject and didn’t know who to ask.

  24. juanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:09 pm 

    Oops, sorry everyone. Juanpee, not Juanp. I get real mixed up

  25. Website on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:12 pm 

    This site has a stalker. He goes by the alias juanpee, JuanP, juanP, numb nut, and fuck nut

  26. juanp on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:15 pm 

    Oops, sorry everyone. juanPee, not JUanP. I AM real mixed up.

  27. Website on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:17 pm 

    Oops, sorry for losing my shit again everyone.

  28. Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:17 pm 

    Geeze, I just got up and we have more of this shit going on? Give it a rest juanpee

  29. JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:18 pm 

    I have not been on this forum for a month and look somebody is pretending to be me

  30. Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:22 pm 

    Someone is pretending to be me too. Who could it possibly be?

  31. Cloggie on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:34 pm 

    “This site has a stalker.“

    This shit can be easily solved with a simple user/password authentication. No need for registration with email.

    User/password, first served policy.

    Evildoers can still stalk this site with random credentials, but identity theft would be a thing of the past. “Newcomers” wouldn’t be taken serious until they have built up a profile, which takes time.

    Come on, admin, end this charade!

  32. Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:57 pm 

    Shut up Cloggo Jude I happen to like what JuanP is doing. Anything that interferes with you bile is legitimate

  33. Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 1:00 pm 

    CLoggJude, STFU why dont you. There are already IS a registered side you moron. Nothing is stopping you and your equally deranged partner in crime from migrating to registered side and leaving all this behind. Oh wait, something IS stopping both of you. In registered and moderated area, both of you would likely be banned within a few days at most, for but, not limited to, spamming, topic derailing, trolling, hotlinking and just for being yourselves.

    So, that place already exists retard, go sign up and see how long you last.

    For one of the ‘chosen ones’, are you ever fooking dumb, cloggedAnus.

  34. JuanP identity theft on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 1:04 pm 

    Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 1:00 pm

    CLoggJude, STFU why dont you. There are alreadY

  35. Cloggie on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 1:25 pm 

    “In registered and moderated area, both of you would likely be banned within a few days at most, for but, not limited to, spamming, topic derailing, trolling, hotlinking and just for being yourselves.”

    Shoeshine boy, before November 2016 I have been IP-banned several times, but that was before Trump.

    Now everything has changed. My impression is that the forum has been split up since in two: one for lefties, weaklings that must be protected, mostly from the truth (including stalking nitwits like you without anything to contribute) and one freestyle darwinian resolute freespeech forum.

    Of course punks like you attempt to stifle free speech, but this forum is pretty robust, so your attempts are futile. And let’s face it, shoeshine boy, “futile” is your middle name.

    And rest assured, November 2016 was a watershed moment. Nothing will ever be the same. Are you already prepping, because you should. But not for peakoil, but for CW2.

  36. Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 2:35 pm 

    I’ve decided to start my own blog. As a consequence, I will be posting here infrequently.


    I forgot I’m a habitual liar.

  37. JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 2:46 pm 

    Oops, Ian JuanP not Davy

    Davy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 2:35 pm

    I’ve decided to start my own blog. As a consequence, I will be posting here infrequently.
    I forgot I’m a habitual liar.

  38. Anonymouse identity theft on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 2:48 pm 

    JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 2:46 pm

  39. boney joe on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:02 pm 

    In reference to your new blog, when will you be leaving us, Davy?

  40. Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:06 pm 

    Cloggedsphincter,do you actually think this area is the entirely of the website? Holy fook, I just pointed out how stupid you really are, way to prove my point. This area, is not the site retard. It is not even a semi-important part of it. It is a, how could it put it terms you would understand?

    It is like PO.coms version of the jewish ghetto, except with one jew, [spoiler alert] that would be you.

    Want another example? Remember Plantretard? He is borderline imbecile, like you in many respects, but even HE managed to find registered side and knows how it mostly works. He still posts his drivel there on a semi-regular basis. Now, here it comes cloggjude. If a retard like him can figure out where the main site actually resides, how it is that you, for all your jew smarts, still think this is the actual website and discussion area?

    You and demented davy want moderators and registration? Well, its your lucky day kosherboy, you now know, where to find them. Want me to link it for you, or do think you can find it on your own?

    Ill let you go heat up some of your left-over motzah balls and you can chew on those while you try to digest all this new information.

  41. Turd Buster on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:21 pm 

    Boney joe, you are not real and everyone knows it. You are juanpeee gay date

  42. Boney joe identity theft on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:22 pm 

    Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:06 pm

  43. The DavyFraud Report on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:30 pm 

    I am DavySkum
    Hear me roar.

    The Skum lives such the pathetic life that it spends at least 20 hours a day hitting the refresh button every 10 to 15 minutes.

    Though it claims to be a farmer. Instead, it resides in mommy’s discarded single-wide trailer by the dump.

    More lies.

  44. Pretty fishy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:39 pm 

    Juanpee Lunatic zone

    The DavyFraud Report on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:30 pm

  45. makati1 on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:41 pm 

    Juan, stop the trashing of this forum. It confuses me when you steal identities

  46. More Davy Identity Theft and Sock Puppetry on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:49 pm 

    Anonymouse on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 12:57 pm

    JuanP on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 2:46 pm

    Turd Buster on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:21 pm

    Pretty fishy on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:39 pm

    makati1 on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 5:41 pm

  47. makati1 on Sat, 6th Jul 2019 6:04 pm 

    Interesting! At 5:41 pm, I was still sleeping. 6:41 AM here.^_^

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