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Limits to Economic Growth

Limits to Economic Growth thumbnail

These are notes from a short lecture given at Nottingham University on 28th November 2017.

1 Production Increase

During the 17th and 18th centuries the rise of mercantile power, colonialism and a slave economy was associated with the development of the idea that “improvement” meant production growth and was an indicator of a new idea of progress. This was a core idea in Adam Smith’s book The Wealth of Nations. In it Smith described the production increase at the early stages of the industrial revolution as being the result of an increasing division of labour and specialisation – his famous example being the pin factory.

However what really enabled the industrial revolution to take off was not just that production was being broken down into simplified specialised processes in factories but that this specialisation enabled mechanisation. Machines were being applied to production on a greater scale and these machines were powered. Their energy source was fossil fuels – coal fired steam engines began to overtake wind and water mills, sails, wood and the muscles of humans and work animals as the main energy and power sources.

2 Applications of fossil fuels to machinery and technical infrastructures

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Later in the next century coal power was supplemented oil as a fuel source refined into petroleum and diesel. Later still natural gas became a fuel. The technologies of energy delivery evolved too. Gas was created from coal and piped across towns and cities. The fossil fuels, and later uranium 235, were used to generate electricity which could be distributed by power grids. It could be generated too by hydro power dams as well as by wind and solar.

To get a sense of the scale of what happened over 250 years we can compare the amount of power that averagely fit human beings can generate in work processes to the amount of power generated each year by fossil fuels. If we ask someone to sit on a pedal generator and peddle all day and night they can generate is 3kWh p/d. Let us call this unit of measurement the labour power of one “energy slave”. Measuring with these kind of units of account a barrel of oil contains the energy equivalent of 8.6 years of human labour. Since the per capita average consumption of oil for the USA is 24 barrels per person per annum we can say that the average US lifestyle requires 204 “energy slaves” and the average West European lifestyle requires requires 110.

The energy is converted through machines which processes raw material into products, it powers transport vehicles of various kinds, it powers communications and information processing devices like the internet, it powers devices to regulate temperatures and other devices in the home that makes domestic labour quicker and more effective – vacuum cleaners, cookers, dishwashers and so on.

3. The Cubic Mile of Oil as a measuring Unit

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Let’s use another measurement to get a sense of the scale of energy usage in the contemporary world – the cubic mile of oil. A cubic mile of oil is the amount of oil consumption that global economy is using every year. That’s just the oil – the other energy sources are mainly coal and natural gas with a small amount of biomass, nuclear, hydro electric, geothermal and wind and solar.

The figures are as follows:

Oil 1.06 CMO; Coal 0.81CMO; Natural Gas 0.61CMO; Biomass 0.19CMO; Nuclear 0.15; Hydro Elec 0.17CMO; Geothermal < 0.01CCMO; Wind+PV+solar thermal <0.005CMO (The power point graphic image shows what would be needed to provide a substitute amount of energy equivalent to a CMO. For example building 4 X something of the scale of a Three Gorges Dams every year for 50 years @ 18gigawatts power. Or 32,850 turbines with a 70-100 metre blade span generating 1.65MW every year for 50 years. Or 91,250,000 x 2.1kW solar panel every year for 50 years….) I make no apologies for concentrating a talk about growth on the massive growth of the energy system. Mainstream economists typically concentrate on science, technology and innovation to explain economic growth – but virtually all these new innovations are new ways to use energy and it is the energy of coal, oil and gas that does the work. The economy grows essentially when more energy is put through more machines.

4. Sustainability – Sources and Sinks

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Is continued growth and an industrial economy actually desirable and, a separate and different question, is this growth sustainable? Can growth continue?

In the 1970s growing uneasiness about the ecologically destructive effects of the growth economy led a few economists and scientists who were sceptical that growth could continue for ever to look into this matter in more depth. In 1972 a study was carried out by a group of academics from the Massachusetts Instutute of Technology and published by the Club of Rome. The academics concluded that sometime in the coming century growth would inevitably come to an end. It would not be possible for the economy to grow for ever on a finite planet.

Their argument was that growth would come to an end for two kinds of reasons which can be summarised as the exhaustion of(re)sources and the overwhelming of sinks.

Economic activity takes resources from the ecological and planetary system – energy minerals, metals, building aggregates which are ultimately limited by the availability of geological deposits – and renewable natural supplies like wood, fish and so on. The natural (renewable) supplies can be regenerated but not if they are overharvested – which requires proper management of the resource.

Economic activity also puts wastes and pollution back into the planetary system. This occurs during the production process itself and, later, when products are thrown away. The pollution and wastes can be absorbed by the planet at a certain scale – but if too much they become toxic and destructive. For example virtually all production processes that use energy generate CO2 and a variety of other greenhouse gases, while wastes like plastic are a serious threat to marine eco-systems.

5. The Limits to Growth model

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The diagram expresses the business as usual model of the MIT scientists – economic growth is shown as a growth of industrial production and as a growth in food which allowed the growth of population – however as these increase so too does pollution – while resources decline. The combination of the negative effects of two trends leads eventually to a downturn of industrial production in the early years of the 21st century (2010-2030). This would be followed by a rise in the death rate and a downturn in the birth rate – hence a fall in population.

6. Techno-optimists versus realists (or pessimists)

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There is currently a fierce debate about whether these problems can be resolved – and there has been since the 1970s – from the very first time that the Limits to Growth book was published. At that time economists declared that the Limits to Growth authors had not understood how markets and technology worked and declared the study discredited. Nowadays, although a debate exists most mainstream economists and politicians seem to be barely, or not at all, aware of the issues and take for granted that growth can and should continue. In the last few years a few observers have noticed that growth in productivity is, in fact, slowing. They struggle to explain it.

Belief in economic growth has some of the taken for granted features of a religious faith. On the one side there are those who are convinced that markets can be used to incentivise technology fixes – however, those of us who are not convinced that growth can continue try to draw attention to issues that show that the fixes are not affordable or acceptable in a variety for a variety of reasons and in a vaariety of ways.

Typifying the techno optimists are economists like Nicholas Stern whose famous report of 2006 on the economics of climate change was all about how an appropriate carbon price was needed to incentivise the necessary technological changes. Without an appropriate carbon price to incentivise the needed technologies “growth itself would be threatened” – his ultimate nightmare.

What the appropriate technological fixes are actually going to be are the subject of competition and debates between coalitions led by different industrial and corporate groups, academics and researchers and their respective PR advisers and lobbyists.

Now let’s turn to why the 1972 Limits to Growth model does describe reasonably well what has happened.

7. What has actually happened – pollution and wastes

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Although there have been many sources of environmental toxicity to water, land and atmosphere the main focus globally has been on emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gases and the global climate crisis. But there are other problems too – like plastic pollution in the earth’s oceans for example.

The graph from climate scientist Kevin Anderson shows the trend increase in greenhouse gas emissions – and compares it to how greenhouse gas emissions would have to fall to have an outside chance of global temperatures not rising by more than 2 degrees C above the pre-industrial level.

Part of the lack of awareness of the climate crisis is because many climate impacts are felt with time lags but there are arguments that we are already seeing what the future will be like as we experience more droughts, hurricanes and natural disasters. In the future rising sea levels will likely flood many areas of land. Some of the best farm land in the UK is in Lincolnshire but if and when Greenland melts, which seems to be happening already, this will mean a 7 metre sea level rise which will inundate most of Lincolnshire – as well as Hull, the City of London, Romney Marsh with its nuclear power stations…and New York, Miami, Bangla Desh, Shanghai…

8 What has actually happened – depletion

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If we now turn to the second trend – the exploitation of depletable resources and over extraction of renewable resources. Arguably this is the process that is happening fastest and is likely to have the biggest short term impacts. You will note that in the original LtG picture resources do not run out totally but they do get scarcer. There are always more resources there to be had but the cheap and easy to extract resources are used up first and it becomes more expensive to extract the later resources. In this respect the extra expense arises in money terms because there is extra expense in the amount of energy needed as depletion proceeds.

Take for example depletion of copper ores….humanity extracts 15 million tons of copper a year from ores that are only 0.5% copper, which means there are 3 billion tons of waste ore – even more than the total mass of concrete produced a year globally. Once humanity is down to 0.1% copper it will be necessary to shift 5 times the amount of waste – with a correspondingly 5 fold increase in the energy bill to do that.

The same trend can be seen in the extraction of energy minerals – oil, natural gas and coal. As the easiest and cheapest to extract coal, oil and natural gas are used up so more energy and money is needed to extract what is left over – resources have to be got from smaller fields found in the Arctic, or in deep sea locations under thousands of metres of rock, or by blasting open unporous rock containing oil or gas with fracking, or by using hot water heated by natural gas to wash oil out of tar sands. Technologies exist to respond to a depleting resource but all using much more engineering, much more energy and cost much more in money too. Such technologies are sometimes called “extreme energy” because their environmental and public health impacts are greater too. So there are technical and engineering options – but are they affordable and are they acceptable?

9. The problem of the affordability of the techno-fixes

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For the oil and gas companies this means they need higher prices to make fossil fuel extraction profitable but there is then a catch 22. If prices rise too high this has macro-economic effects. It undermines the rest of the economy. The deflationary effects means that prices eventually come crashing down so that the fossil fuel sector makes a loss. Energy prices high enough to cover the rising costs of extraction are not affordable to the rest of the economy that has developed on the basis that energy is cheap

On current trends there is an argument that the oil and gas sector is heading towards bankruptcy. If it does go bankrupt this will in all probability pull down the financial sector too.

At the time that the LtG study came out in 1972 the authors of the study were attacked for not understanding how markets work – essentially it was assumed by mainstream economists that if resources became scarce then people would forsee this and free markets could incentivise sorting out the problems. Prices would rise, more would be produced and less would be demanded. Problem solved. Pollution problems could be sorted by market mechanisms too. It occurred to none of these economists that there might be a Catch 22 of the type described.

However action on pollution problems in general and climate change in particular has been blocked by the lobbying and PR power of the fossil fuel companies whose power in the state apparatus of various countries is unparalleled. Meanwhile the market has incentivised new technologies of extraction but, as explained, these are trapped in a catch 22 of unaffordability.

10. List of techno fixes (and their coalitions)

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The fossil fuel industry itself promotes fracking for shale gas and shale oil. This is its solution for depleting conventional supplies. The industry also likes to argue that gas is a low carbon fuel and thus makes a transitional contribution to addressing the climate crisis. However this is an argument that ignores or misrepresents the seriousness of methane leakage by the shale gas industry and its distribution infrastructure, not to mention many other public health and environmental consequences of shale gas. Leaving aside these so called external costs most of the US shale industry in the US has not covered its internal costs. It has thus made losses and built up debt since 2009. It would not have expanded so far without the low interest rates brought about by quantitative easing.

Another techno fix for the fossil fuel industry is the idea of carbon capture and storage – burning the fossil fuels but capturing the CO2, liquifying it and pumping it underground. This is an idea likely to be even less popular than fracking. It’s another techno fix that raises costs – this time of fossil fuel power generation. What’s more it will actually speed up depletion as it uses more fossil fuels to get the same amount of electricity.

Coal plants that capture and store 90% of their carbon emissions cost nearly two-thirds more than an equivalent coal plant without CCS to produce the same amount of electricity. The costs are in the creation and operation of the equipment needed to capture, pump and store CO2 underground.

11. Biomass and Biofuels as Techno fixes

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Another purported solution to fossil fuel depletion and to fossil fuels as climate destroyers is the use of biomass and biomass burned directly in power stations or turned into liquid biofuels for uses in vehicles. There is a spurious argument that biomass is zero carbon and can be taken without displacing food production and/or displacing existing cultivating communities who are using land that the agro-energy industry needs to get hold of in order to plant up with energy crops.

Biofuels are in fact very greedy for land area and labour and this is because of their low net energy. To explain this we can take an idea from a book by Kozo Mayumi and Mario Giampietro. In the example Giampietro and Mayumi assume that all the energy needed to make maize bioethanal is taken from the bioethanol production process e.g. the tractors and irrigation pumps or the fermentation process are powered by bioethanol as the energy carrier. If we did that one hectare of maize would yield 26 Gigajoules of energy in bioethanol. However 20 Gigajoules are needed for the energy input, to power the tractor, the irrigation pumps and so on. The net energy is therefore only 6 Gigajoules per hectare. (If net energy were 3 Gj a hectare twice the land would be needed to get the same net energy.) 6 Gj per hectare is very low. For Italy to supply 30% of its transport energy requirements with biofuels without fossil fuel inputs would require 94% of its labour supply and around 7 times the agricultural land in Italy under cultivation. (From Kozo Mayumi and Mario Giampietro, The Biofuel Delusion 2009 Earthscan )

What needs to be appreciated here is that there is an upper limit on the percentage of biomass growing on the planet that humanity can use without by being counter-productive and reducing the availability of what is called “net primary production” (NPP). Since humanity is almost at that limit (45% of biomass) this means that increasing development of agro energy means displacing other uses – like the capacity of untouched forests to act as carbon sinks, or displacing food growing for fuel and driving up food prices or making fibre crops for textiles scarcer or reducing wood as a building material.

12. The costs of fixing intermittency of wind and solar electricity

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Then there are the wind and solar power sectors which most of the greens endorse and promote. I do too but its necessary to be honest and acknowledge the problems. They are not a panacea. Many people reassure themselves that renewable energy like wind and solar will come to the rescue but there is a fierce debate about how big their potential is. The problem is the same – one of affordability. Wind, solar and other renewable energy technologies like wave or tidal power are all technical possibilities but they are all expensive to develop particularly when you also add in the costs of dealing with intermittency – the fact that the sun is only shining part of the time and with varying degrees of intensity and the wind is also variable and in an even less predictable way than solar.

In London, UK, which is a moderately suitable location for solar power, a solar panel produces on average 10 times less energy in December than in June. This variation can extend as far as producing 65 times less energy on a heavy overcast day in December at 10 am than on a sunny day in June at noon. Under fluctuating cloud cover, the output of multi-megawatt PV power plants in the Southwest USA was reported to have variations of roughly 50% in a 30 to 90 second timeframe and around 70% in a timeframe of 5 to 10 minutes.

There are, of course, technical ways to balance intermittent energy sources like solar and wind – for example with gas fired power stations fired up when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine. But gas is depleting and it defeats the goal of a fossil fuel free energy system to have a gas powered – or biomass fired back-up. Having two parallel energy systems – a gas and/or a biomass fired system on permanent standby and the renewable energy system to be used when wind and sun are available would also be very expensive.

The other solutions for intermittency are expensive too – overdeveloping the renewable infrastructure so that it has a wide geographical spread with connections so at least the the wind and sun are available from somewhere.

The third option is trying to develop energy storage capacities. The cheapest is using energy to pump water up to an elevated reservoir where it can be stored and tapped later as hydro power. Alternatively energy can be stored in compressed air or, finally, as in utility scale battery stores.

Technical possibilities do exist for energy storage – but for a few minutes or hours locally – not for storing energy from the summer to the winter to cover weeks of cold winter days and nights. It is important to realise too that scientists and technologists have been trying to improve batteries now for just under 200 years. There has been some improvement but not major breakthroughs.

Above all energy storage is expensive. An American study asked what it would cost to store 24 hours of the US electricity consumption with a variety of energy storage techniques. The cheapest are pumped hydro compressed air but there are few places to put them. The next are sodium sulfur (NaS) and lithium ion. To get a sense of the cost take into account that US GDP is 17 trillion per annum. With NaS a 24 hour power store would cost $40 trillion, cover an area of 923 square miles and weigh 450 million tonnes. With lithium ion it would cost nearly $12 trillion and with lead acid $8.3 trillion.

In each case the mining extraction of the chemical element which stores the energy would have to increase massively. For an individual technology to reach 12 hours of capacity, annual production by mass will need to double for lead, triple for lithium, and increase by a factor of 10 or more for cobalt and vanadium. This will drive up the price of these commodities.

All of these are attempting to manipulate energy supply to match when there is a demand for it. But what about doing it the other way round – adapting the use of energy to when the wind is blowing and sun is shining. What about using electricity when it is available? Techno-optimists have ideas about smart grids which turn the fridge off when the electricity is not there/too expensive. This would be part of the internet of things. Again it is a high tech solution that does not take into account that the internet itself uses a great deal of electricity in its production and operation. It too would be very expensive in money and grid development and in the bandwith that would be required to have all electrical appliances and items networked and communicating with each other.

Nevertheless doing without when the energy is not there will probably need to be the major part of the response. It the UK it could meet its energy needs most days of the year but on a random basis it would be without electric power for perhaps 65 days a year, according to the authors of Zero Carbon Britain.

13 Main Conclusion

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This diagram by Charles Hall (and reproduced in my book Credo) can be thought of as illustrating the idea of the techno-fix transition if it were possible. It shows two diagrams of the economy and energy system in 1970 and 2030. There are no figures – the point of the pictures are to show the way that more energy is extracted out of the global system and then used in the global economic process between the two dates – and to show the different proportions in which the global economic output is divided up. Although more energy is being used at the later date a much higher proportion of the output of the society has to take the form of investment goods – machinery, equipment and infrastructure – with a smaller proportion in the form of final consumer goods. The higher machinery, equipment and infrastructure has to be applied to extracting energy because more resources are needed for pollution and waste control, for reducing greenhouse gases, for coping with the depletion of energy minerals, for investing in energy sources like solar or biofuels that give a very low energy return on energy invested and to cope with intermittency. In other words – the higher investment in energy does not mean higher output of energy – it is necessary to cope with the declining efficiency, declining returns of the energy system past the limits to growth.

Since a large proportion of total production is being devoted to investment goods to cope with depletion and pollution, less is left over for consumer goods and particularly for discretionary consumer goods – luxuries, the goodies of a consumer society. But what consequences would this have? As people have to pay more for clean energy they would have less for the knick-knacks on sale in the luxury shops in airport lounges, if indeed people could any longer afford to fly. The argument here is that this would be crushing to a consumer society and there would be a permanent recession in the consumer goods sectors – indeed there would be a political crisis in such a society.

One point should be made – someone asked after my lecture whether it would be possible to institute Keynesian demand creation measures to keep such a society operational. A good question – but it is worth remembering that the choice of 1970 and 2030 were just two notional illustrative dates. A third picture for 2060 and a fourth for 2090 could be drawn in which the trends continued – with a further squeeze on available consumer goods. Clearly Keynesian demand management would not solve that – some other response would be needed.

This is a story where only part of the narrative has been told – partly because the lecture was itself only 40 minutes long. Any description of the world is always lacking elements, some known but left out for reasons of time, some not known anyway.

Known elements left out of this picture but which would be in a longer presentation would have included:

(1) inequality – most of the growth of production and income over 250 years has gone to the richest 10% of the (“developed”) world. There is now an issue of how much the rich or the poor absorb the losses of production after growth turns into degrowth.

(2) the scope for social and behavioural changes or “none technological changes” – changes in institutions like a revival of commons, changes in society like sharing more and making do with less (rationing, resource centres and centres based on the library principle, community agriculture and gardens, mending and repair help, co-housing, public transport infrastructures, and behavioural change).

(3) the scope for reviving and adapting older technologies that are pre-fossil fuel and combining these with new approaches to ecological design that integrate households and cultivation, and work with nature like permaculture…

In summary, the theorists of 1972 argued that growth would run out as more and more resources would have to be devoted to the work arounds and techno-fixes to deal with depletion and pollution. They did not deny that techno-fixes would be available – what they were drawing attention to was that adopting them would take resources away from growing production to fixing the problems. Eventually fixing the problems would become too expensive so industrial production and food production would turn downwards. They were right. That’s exactly what is happening…

Brian Davey 30th November 2017. Lecture notes of 28th Nov slightly rewritten.

By Brian Davey, Feasta

 



74 Comments on "Limits to Economic Growth"

  1. Shortend on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 7:43 am 

    Boy, that convinces me. I’m gonna sit down and write some poetry…. Maybe that can be the next definition of economic growth!
    Any takers….thought so….buy some bitcoin

  2. dave thompson on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 8:14 am 

    This article is a great overview. There are still many if not most that will scoff.

  3. onlooker on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 8:52 am 

    Can we just move on from recognizing they’re are limits. Most of us here are here because we already know that

  4. Jef on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 10:34 am 

    It seems crystal clear that the LTG model under weighs pollution by a large amount.

    Pollution should be factored as equal to if not slightly higher than all production.

  5. Denial on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 10:48 am 

    yes onlooker I agree….this seems to be Gail’s “rock star ” moment and she is enjoying the notoriety and travel….She was a “Doomer when dooming wasn’t cool”…..lol…..Lots of egos out there….you have to wade through and so many people trying to capitalize……on the ride down….only in America!!!

    Yes the shit is going to hit the fan…what is new Gail? Re packaging Nicole Foss into her meme a bit like plagerism to me….but hell everybody is doing it…..

  6. Denial on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 10:50 am 

    Whoops wait a minute it looks like this guy plagiarized Gail!!
    My mistake!!!

    Same ole shit in a different package!!

  7. Aspera on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 2:19 pm 

    Onlooker/Denial: I disagree with moving on. I regularly send folks here to get introduced and/or updated on PO/POD, LTG, renewable, EROEI, etc. as well as reading vulgar comments, narrowmindedness, shoot-from-the-hip replies (i.e., as in not realizing the Gail wasn’t the author…). The hard data is over at peakoilbarrel; here they find a broader perspective.

    And, they get introduced to Ghung and others who actually do shit. And witnessing the contempt often shown to such folks who are “early adopter,” trying to make things better than they would be otherwise…

    “Blame no one, Expect no help, Do something but not just anything, do epic shit.”)

  8. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 2:28 pm 

    Study: austerity helped the Nazis come to power

    In 1930, the German government embarked on massive tax hikes and spending cuts.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/12/16761880/study-austerity-nazi-power-hitler-elections

  9. Boat on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 2:30 pm 

    So the more money you can spend on prepping the higher your Co2 input is. Buying your way to being green.

  10. Cloggie on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 2:46 pm 

    The solution exists, but doomers prefer to stick their fingers into their ears:

    https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/What-will-the-energy-transformation-cost.pdf

    That’s okay. There is nothing you can do against people determined to talk themselves into the grave.

    Key element in storage system:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/12/11/high-temperature-electrolysis/

    (Not batteries or pumped hydro as this Gail woman insists. My grandmother btw used to knit rather than having opinions about energy, but I digress).

  11. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 2:49 pm 

    Boat, prepping has absolutely nothing to do with being Green.

    If that straw man was intentional you are sad indeed.

    Besides there is no such thing as being green. One can be less impact is all, but that goes against the dictates of the MPP which is why it is rare and green washing is so common.

    Humans are the only Cancer that needs to rationalize and device itself that it is not a cancer. Biggest cancer this plant has ever seen.

  12. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 2:55 pm 

    clog, so all your alt fantasies have not been implemented because a few thousand obscure Doomers vs 7.6 billion non Doomers have their fingers in their ears?

    Ya that makes sooooooo much sense. Obviously the doomers are to blame. They have the final say on everything.

    Why just yesterday, Trudeau called me up looking for my approval on another Alberta wind farm, but of course I told him NO! just to thwart y’all’s green dreams.

    Yes that is exactly how the world works according to old clog.

  13. Cloggie on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 3:06 pm 

    Why just yesterday, Trudeau called me up looking for my approval on another Alberta wind farm, but of course I told him NO! just to thwart y’all’s green dreams.

    You did the right thing TalmudTurk. No favors to traitors to the Canadians cause!

    http://www.eurocanadian.ca/2017/12/justin-trudeau-traitorous-disgrace.html

    Tell me it is not true, apneaman… does Ontaria have a Hinterland?!

    http://www.eurocanadian.ca/2017/12/swastika-hysteria-in-ontario-hinterland.html

  14. onlooker on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 3:12 pm 

    Aspera, first thanks for sending people this way. Yes, this site has been able to gather and record much info since its inception back in 2005. Its discourse mirrors, I think that of the wider world. Which is good, so others can discern what is truly valuable info and what are opinions, conjectures and outright false info. My point is that in this News section we should already have moved on from basic stuff, to more nuanced forward looking information and articles. The Basic stuff and primers are all located in the many threads of the Main forum and it the Archives section within the Main forum

  15. onlooker on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 3:17 pm 

    Oh and Boat, Clog and others, you mirror the general population. You fail to wish to see the more in depth analysis and the more vexing problems which any solution (s) are unable to address. I suggest you take a wider more holistic view of all our current and future limitations as a species in being able to maintain this worldwide civilization and this gigantic population

  16. Cloggie on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 3:28 pm 

    You fail to wish to see the more in depth analysis and the more vexing problems which any solution (s) are unable to address.

    You are just creating for yourself the excuse to have to do nothing, “because it is hopeless anyway”.

  17. onlooker on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 3:56 pm 

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Footing-The-9-Trillion-Renewable-Bill.html
    So, then how are we to come up with trillions in money/energy for Renewable in this Era when Oil and FF are endowing our Economies with ever less Net energy and thus hampering any robust growth. And additionally when a substantial portion of FF is needed for the manufacturing of this huge Renewable/Alternative energy infrastructure projects

  18. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 6:59 pm 

    The whole economic system is/was built on FF energy growth. With few exceptions, I doubt that any real thought was given that there might be an end down the road or how far we might go before the cliff. Techies always have dreams of a future like the Jetsons TV show so they see no need for real thought, just belief in the tech god.

    The closer we get to the cliff, the more of these repetitious dreams will pop up and be presented as the saving miracle of humankind. I read the headline, go to the author and usually stop reading. A waste of time.

    The West the area where the decline will be most obvious, with the US leading the pack as the biggest energy waster on the planet. With at least five times more “energy slaves” than most other countries, life on the US plantation is not going to be the same for much longer. The slaves are dying off one by one.

    Soon the plantation owners will have to go to the ‘fields’ and sweat or starve. That’s a good thing for the rest of the world. The inability of the US to cause chaos and wars would be a silver lining for the other seven billion of us.

  19. Boat on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 7:01 pm 

    Onlooker,

    You did an analysis close to 5 years ago and came up with crash o’l bud. You still think crash. I think the world back then and now are poised for growth. Nat gas and renewables will provide stability to 1/2 the energy market.

  20. Boat on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 7:05 pm 

    ape posts a lot of mayhem and corresponding costs but compare them to WWI and WWII. Chump change I say. We’re good for a couple decades. Your oil fears are way overblown. Good for decades.

  21. peakyeast on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 7:17 pm 

    @boat: When you look at Syria, Libya, Venezuela, Iran, Yemen and many other places – do you then see a gradual peaceful transition to a lower energy level?

    Or do you see a crash and a bang?

    The crash can either be self-inflicted or it can be outside powers that are going for a resource grab – it doesnt matter. What matters is that there are plenty of fucked up crazy warlords everywhere in the world – just waiting for things to happen. They are called leaders before the crash.

    These are examples of how countries collapse. Very suddenly. Now how many in those countries would have left before time if they were certain it would happen? I think many. The problem is the uncertainty – it makes people stay and hope.

    Of course, its possible to transition, to a sustainable society – even now – in theory. But because we have the worst of the worst in control of weapons and resources it wont be that nice smooth transition.

    And no – no country is much better than the other. There are only different levels of development towards that crash. There are no viable solutions being even discussed yet.

    Its like the chickens in the henhouse – the fox wont eat me – coz my neighbourgh is closer to the door – so if I sit really still and do nothing it will go away.

    Cloggie is right – we could manage on renewable power combined with the remaining resources. But it just wont happen because of our “choice” of leadership.

  22. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 7:41 pm 

    peaky, it won’t happen because of our choice of lifestyle, ot the ‘leaders’. Human greed extends all the way to the bottom of the ladder, not just the top. And the “leaders” do not run countries today, ‘for profit’ corporations do. That is especially true in the US.

  23. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 7:52 pm 

    Signs of energy contraction in the US:

    “Poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, underemployment, and overall deprivation in America increase under either wing of its duopoly governance – while Wall Street, other corporate predators, and its privileged class never had things better….

    For countless millions of poor and neglected people, the nation is a wasteland of dystopian harshness, deprivation and despair…

    “The dramatic cuts in welfare, foreshadowed by the President and Speaker Ryan, and already beginning to be implemented by the administration, will essentially shred crucial dimensions of a safety net that is already full of holes.”

    http://stephenlendman.org/2017/12/american-exceptionalisms-dark-side/

    “It ranks 36th worldwide in access to clean water and sanitation. It has the world’s highest incarceration rate by far, exceeding China’s and India’s, both countries with four-times the US population….

    Its youth poverty exceeds other developed nations. America ranks last among the world’s most well-off countries in terms of labor rights, poverty, safety net protections, wealth, inequality and economic mobility….

    America’s deplorable state is unfit and unsafe to live in for most of its people – because of deep-seated corruption, rampant human and civil rights abuses, governance for its privileged class exclusively, and imperial madness.”

    And the slide to the 3rd world continues…

  24. peakyeast on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 8:11 pm 

    @Mak: However fast and visible the descent is for the USA i think there is still a long fall left before reaching those limits that those collapsed countries had right before TSHTF.

    Besides that – the military and police and the control system in the US may be far stronger.

    Time will probably tell in not too many years.

  25. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 8:22 pm 

    “41 Million Americans Are Living In Poverty This Christmas”

    “Los Angeles has declared a state of emergency because the number of homeless is rising so rapidly, and so have nine other cities along the west coast. For much more on this, please see my previous article entitled “As America Gives Thanks, Homelessness Continues To Set New Records In Major Cities All Over The Nation”.

    The sad thing is that there are more than a million homes sitting empty in America right now. As economic opportunities have dried up, many communities in the middle part of the nation are becoming “ghost towns”, and it is getting worse with each passing day…”

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/41-million-americans-are-living-in-poverty-this-christmas

    And the slide continues…

  26. peakyeast on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 8:29 pm 

    @Mak: Btw. I visited the US earlier this year for the first time – and probably the last. It really is a sad place – especially for poor and old people that got their pensions robbed.

    After visiting I support MUCH MORE that part of socialism that provides free healthcare and give the poor the means to have food and shelter.

    Now I can understand the problems in the poor countries which cannot afford to take care of the poor, but the USA is rich enough but suffers from a psychopathic culture. They really should be ashamed of themselves.

  27. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 8:39 pm 

    peaky, I see the decline more and more with every visit back to my home town. I skipped this year because it was getting too expensive to travel and I did not want to be trapped there during a possible country lock down and marshal law. I expect that to happen anytime as conditions deteriorate.

    I may go this summer as my family is asking me to visit. It depends on the US situation when the time comes. We shall see.

  28. GregT on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 9:24 pm 

    “I visited the US earlier this year for the first time – and probably the last.”

    The wife and myself have made the decision to stay away from now on. We don’t appreciate constantly being treated like common criminals by the ‘authorities’, and in all honesty, we no longer feel safe when we visit. Not to mention the ‘healthcare’ system. We’ve heard of far too many people losing their life savings due to medical emergencies. Simply not worth the trouble anymore.

  29. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 9:26 pm 

    The National Security Threat that Inflicted 400 Billion in Damages This Year

    “Failure to Recognize Climate Change Leaves U.S. Citizens Vulnerable to Harm”

    “(GOP funding by fossil fuel donors just keeps going up and up in lockstep with GOP climate change denial and anti-environmental policy. Image source: InsideClimate News.)

    Such denial may line the pocketbooks of republican politicians and wealthy oil, gas, and ailing coal companies. But it places the American people, their homes, their livelihoods, beneath the blade of a falling ax. So when Trump says climate change is a hoax, forces government websites to shut down, scrubs words related to climate change from government communications, opposes alternative clean energy, and tells the Department of Defense not to treat climate change as a national security threat, he is culpable and a contributor to a very clear, present, and growing danger.”

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/12/19/the-national-security-threat-that-inflicted-400-billion-in-damages-this-year/

    $4hundred billion$. It’ll keep climbing (AGW is non linear) until one day they stop counting and rescuing and bailing you out.

  30. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 9:37 pm 

    The death of an Alaskan glacier – video

    “the Exit Glacier is currently retreating 10 to 15 feet per day.”

    https://kottke.org/17/12/the-death-of-an-alaskan-glacier

  31. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 9:40 pm 

    Firefighters battling inferno ‘have never seen anything like this’

    “In his 24 years as a firefighter in Ventura County, Antonio Negrete has never seen a wildfire grow as quickly and with such intensity as the Thomas fire. He said he’s also never seen so many resources or personnel dedicated to fighting such a massive blaze.”

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-fire-winds-20171218-story.html

  32. Apneaman on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 9:51 pm 

    This is not new, the country has been hollowed out for decades. It’s Trumps sheer boldness, recklessness and the scale and speed of it all.


    We’re witnessing the wholesale looting of America

    Unchecked by norms or political prudence, it’s smash-and-grab time for the GOP.

    “Over the course of 2017, both in Congress and in the executive branch, we have watched the task of government devolve into the full-scale looting of America.

    Politicians are making decisions to enrich their donors — and at times themselves personally — with a reckless disregard for any kind of objective policy analysis or consideration of public opinion.

    A businessman president who promised — repeatedly — that he would not personally benefit from his own tax proposals is poised to sign into law a bill that’s full of provisions that benefit him and his family.”

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/19/16786006/looting-of-america

  33. peakyeast on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 9:53 pm 

    @GregT: I know exactly how you feel. That was exactly how it felt. Pictures taken several times. All fingerprints taken. Asked all sorts of questions.

    When I finally arrived and got picked up by my wifes sister – they wondered why I was MAD and didnt talk to anybody. I explained next day that I do not appreciate being treated like a convicted criminal just for traveling to a wedding.

  34. GregT on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 10:12 pm 

    The last time we drove down with our trailer peakyeast, the border ‘officials’ ripped both the truck and trailer apart, and after 3 hours of detention, confiscated a lemon, and a tomato. Both of which were grown in the US of A.

    A good friend of mine had his SUV confiscated, because he refused to hand over a roast beef sandwich. Another friend of mine, who was born in Iraq, routinely spends all of his layovers in interrogation. This has been ongoing now for 15 years, and they keep asking him the same questions over, and over, and over again.

    Simply not worth the trouble anymore.

  35. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 10:25 pm 

    Guys, the US is a police state in semi-lockdown. It is only going to get worse.
    The serfs don’t realize it because they never leave the country and probably not even their state. Soon, they will required to have passports (Papers please!) to go anywhere.

    I visited a state prison in PA to bid on some work and the security there was nothing compared to trying to visit the US. In my 10+ years of international travel, I can see the noose tightening on Americans who want to leave. More signs of 3rd world America.

  36. Go Speed Racer on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 11:00 pm 

    Hi Makita,
    Wow that’s sobering stuff.
    It’s sad the USA is turning into a mess.
    It’s still a sweet place if ya can stay
    middle class, or preferably 1%.

    Most cannot do that. Most are poor.
    A lot of them rightfully can blame themselves
    and will always be that way. Druggies and
    bums who absolutely will not work.
    Always back to their hash pipes.

    But some don’t deserve it, just no jobs anymore.

    Hey Makita if there are 1 Million empty
    homes we could put 41 homeless people
    into each one of those houses.
    Presto problem solved.
    But.
    They will all start shitting down the
    heat registers. Pull the wires out of
    the walls. Break all the windows.
    Then they will burn it down.

    So then we would be back to where
    we started, and down 1 million homes.

    Better to leave those houses empty.

  37. Makati1 on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 11:07 pm 

    GSR, don’t judge them by your own standards. Most of the 41M homeless are/were middle class not long ago. A shelter of any kind would be taken care of and appreciated. Whole families are on the street by the millions.

    Maybe you never saw people living on the streets? I did when I lived in Philly 11 years ago. I can assume it is only worse now. Enjoy your lifestyle while it lasts. It will soon be over.

  38. MASTERMIND on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 11:26 pm 

    Madkat

    You are so delusional. The US still has the highest standard of living by a country mile…Things wont break down for another couple years until the oil shortages hit. Then the price will spike and shit will get ugly. But things will still likely hold for another five to ten years before total economic collapse. You will most likely be wearing diapers by then. Do they sell diapers in your country? I hope so you wouldn’t want to ruin your trousers. LOL

  39. MASTERMIND on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 11:29 pm 

    Madkat

    Pretty soon you wont’ be able to control your boldly functions. You could be talking on the phone and all of a sudden you will shit your paints. And there will be nothing you can do to control it ever. And it will be very disgusting. Just imagine you wake up in the middle of the night and your bed is full of shit everywhere. Enjoy because you deserve it..LOL

  40. GregT on Tue, 19th Dec 2017 11:32 pm 

    Davy,

    Grow the fuck up already.

  41. Cloggie on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 12:34 am 

    You are so delusional. The US still has the highest standard of living by a country mile…

    Because a few oligarchs in the US have insane amounts of wealth. But I doubt that Joe Average in the US is better off than his counterpart in western Europe, where a middle class still exists with affordable health care.

    Minimum wage:

    (converted in euro)
    France……9.76
    Holland…..9.52
    Belgium…..9.28
    Germany…..8.84
    UK……….8.79

    Canada……7.64
    USA………6.84

    China…….1.78
    Russia……0.62

    I used to battle my leftist-leaning father in the eighties and used the US as a glaring example of functioning capitalism. Today I’m much more European-leaning and accept social minimums in income and healthcare. The social market economy is simply the best to sustain a middle class. Unfortunately it attracts third world parasites, who are invited by a corrupt western globalist leadership of the “open society” mold (hi George Soros!). The US couldn’t afford the European model, even if they wanted.

    The stinking West is something that needs to be destroyed and rebuild from the ground up.

    And Russia is the key to get the job done, that is: getting rid of the oligarch-run US as an overlord and next redefine the European world world-wide on European terms. For that to work we will find sufficient allies in the US to make that work. Good riddance to George Soros.

  42. Makati1 on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 12:42 am 

    Cloggie, MM is so deeply indoctrinated by his US ‘exceptional/indispensable’ brainwashing that reality is not even in his dictionary. He is even stupid enough to publish his ignorance on here to those who know better. He’s a typical American snowflake that is going to melt when reality finally gets thru his blinders and smacks him to his knees, or worse.

  43. Makati1 on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 12:57 am 

    Quality of life index:

    US – #9 (Netherlands #5)

    https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

    US – #8 (Netherlands #5)

    https://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-quality-of-life-map.html

    US – #10 (Netherlands #7)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

    US – #18 (Netherlands #8)

    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-rankings

    “The US was ranked in 19th place…” (Nether5lands #8)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/countries-with-the-highest-standard-of-living-social-progress-index/

    I could NOT find one source that said the US was #1 in quality of life. No one.

  44. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 2:50 am 

    “The wife and myself have made the decision to stay away from now on. ”

    grehg, “WEEE” don’t want you here anyway so it works out best for both of us.

  45. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 2:52 am 

    “USA is rich enough but suffers from a psychopathic culture.”

    typical Eurotard who points fingers. Denmark is a little country big difference. We are doing well enough here worry about your own dumbass country peak dumb.

  46. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 2:53 am 

    “@GregT: I know exactly how you feel. That was exactly how it felt. Pictures taken several times. All fingerprints taken. Asked all sorts of questions.”

    what a pussy, wa wa wa, don’t come here WEE don’t need pussies here.

  47. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 2:55 am 

    “The last time we drove down with our trailer peakyeast, the border ‘officials’ ripped both the truck and trailer apart, and after 3 hours of detention, confiscated a lemon, and a tomato. Both of which were grown in the US of A.

    A good friend of mine had his SUV confiscated, because he refused to hand over a roast beef sandwich. Another friend of mine, who was born in Iraq, routinely spends all of his layovers in interrogation. This has been ongoing now for 15 years, and they keep asking him the same questions over, and over, and over again.”

    friggin liar, WEEE can’t believe what an anti-American liar says. Extremist will say anything to make their extreme positions look real.

  48. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 2:56 am 

    “Guys, the US is a police state in semi-lockdown.”

    We are in better shape than Asia. Check out any rankings on freedom and that is a fact.

  49. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 2:59 am 

    Mad kat is a LIAR
    Most of the 41M homeless are/were middle class not long ago.

    Here is the real story
    “564,708 people in the U.S. are homeless. According to a recent report, over half a million people were living on the streets, in cars, in homeless shelters, or in subsidized transitional housing during a one-night national survey last January. 2016’s Shocking Homelessness Statistics – Social Solutions”
    https://tinyurl.com/zsu6k3e

  50. Davy on Wed, 20th Dec 2017 3:01 am 

    “Davy, Grow the fuck up already.”

    Shut up you stupid mental case Canadian. Go whine about your own stupid country pussy.

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