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Why we shouldn't worry about end times

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby joewp » Mon 08 Oct 2012, 17:08:05

pstarr wrote:
meemoe_uk wrote:>I will end by saying your conspiracy theories about a global banking "elite" are not founded on any facts, at least none you have pointed out in any of your posts.
Hi SeaHorse,
Anyone interested in money should start at the deep end with this epic classic. Anyone furious and fierce about preserving their delusion should never watch this. Anyone with ADHD or who is dum can't watch it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0256183936
So you believe in a Secret Cabal of Money-Masters that control world events for their profits and yucks. 8O I on the other hand believe in the science of ecology and the dangers (to ourselves, our biosphere, and other living creatures) of exponential human population growth and natural resource depletion. Who's the wack job then? :razz:


Actually, both are true. And the fractional reserve banking system with its money created as debt (with interest) drives the impetus to constant growth that screws up the ecology.
Joe P. joeparente.com
"Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money." - Cree Indian Proverb
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 Oct 2012, 18:09:44

This was just a test post. Seems my ip was blacklisted for a while. But now I'm back, for better or worse.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby meemoe_uk » Thu 06 Dec 2012, 18:41:45

Hi RD,
just wondering about these unrecoverable oil we've mentioned. How much unrecoverable oil is there in proportion to all recoverable reserves? Can you elaborate a bit on the insurmountable problems of extraction that make this oil unrecoverable?
My rough idea is that a lot of this oil is unrecoverable because it is not in a pressurized geologic structure \ formation relative to its environment and there's no way to artificially increase pressure, so there won't be enough well pressure to lift the oil out the ground.
Am I close in this idea?
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby sparky » Sat 08 Dec 2012, 19:49:04

.
The issue is the carbon wealth and the cost of recovery
digging is expensive but work fine for rich easy access sites like the tar sands and the Orinoco tars

most of the carbon will never be recoverable , a silly test is get a piece of it and set it on fire
if it doesn't burn , it's not going to be cheap
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 08 Dec 2012, 23:10:05

My rough idea is that a lot of this oil is unrecoverable because it is not in a pressurized geologic structure \ formation relative to its environment and there's no way to artificially increase pressure, so there won't be enough well pressure to lift the oil out the ground.


that issue was solved a couple of decades ago when it was realized we needed to keep reservoirs pressured. Hence, water and gas injection schemes that are used now right at the beginning of production when it is expected they will be needed.
The real problem with recoverability has to do with the oil that tends to be bound to sand/carbonate grains or is trapped in unconnected pore spaces. Sometimes surfactant floods can help the former and fraccing can help the latter but there is still a lot of technological improvements needed to increase recovery. All reservoirs are different and hence need slightly different solutions. The key is understanding the reservoir first (the Saudis are masters at this, the rest of the world hasn't caught on to the value idea as yet) and then trying to come up with the right solutions to deal with the specific problems.
At this point it is impossible to say what ultimate recovery might be from any given reservoir. Will it ever get to 100%? Almost assuredly not. Will it get up to the 75% that the Saudis are talking about for some of their fields....possibly. When it will happen largely has to do with how much money is invested into the necessary research and of course the economy which decides how much money gets spent in this sort of endeavour.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 08 Dec 2012, 23:27:17

I guess you don't worry about the effect of burning that stuff and GW?

Or you are just assuming e will go after it no matter the ultimate cost?

Not meant to be snarky or sarcastic, honest question.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 09 Dec 2012, 01:15:24

joewp wrote:Actually, both are true. And the fractional reserve banking system with its money created as debt (with interest) drives the impetus to constant growth that screws up the ecology.


Likely, beyond reserve requirements, as revealed in the article shared here:

the-myth-of-the-money-multiplier-t67257.html
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby meemoe_uk » Sun 09 Dec 2012, 07:36:42

Will it get up to the 75% that the Saudis are talking about for some of their fields....possibly. When it will happen largely has to do with how much money is invested into the necessary research and of course the economy which decides how much money gets spent in this sort of endeavour.


When you and me had an exchange in the summer I was saying that unrecoverable oil would become recoverable if the market price of oil went up, and that it can go up way higher than it is today, and that oil is still very cheap today.
You were saying that increasing the market price of oil wouldn't impact our ability to extract oil much, so that peak oil would be around 2013-2015.

:cry:

Now with your latest post you seem to have agreed with my previous stance. A 75% recovery rate for all the fields we've found will give plenty of oil for decades.
" the course of the economy " ?
You see what happens when the oil industry decides it needs more oil. Suddenly and 'fortunately' an oil rich nation is 'evil' and needs invading, and all the surrounding oil rich nations need revolutions as well.

This supports my thinking you were being too pessimistic with your ' oil technology and discovery have run their course and now we will peak ' idea.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby dorlomin » Sun 09 Dec 2012, 10:57:05

Viscount Ridley was non executive chairman of Nothern Rock when it blew up and caused the first run on a British bank in 150 years. Perhaps had he been less of a rationalising optimist, he would have been less of a financially suicidal risk taker?

By the 1970s the focus of chemical concern had shifted to air pollution. Life magazine set the scene in January 1970: “Scientists have solid experimental and theoretical evidence to support … the following predictions: In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution … by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half.” Instead, driven partly by regulation and partly by innovation, both of which dramatically cut the pollution coming from car exhaust and smokestacks, ambient air quality improved dramatically in many cities in the developed world over the following few decades. Levels of carbon monoxide, sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, lead, ozone, and volatile organic compounds fell and continue to fall.
So our liberatarian friend is saying that by worry about things and legislating we can solve problems.

So his own argument fails. We worry, we act... therefore we should not worry. Circular logic.

The threat to the ozone layer came next. In the 1970s scientists discovered a decline in the concentration of ozone over Antarctica during several springs, and the Armageddon megaphone was dusted off yet again. The blame was pinned on chlorofluorocarbons, used in refrigerators and aerosol cans, reacting with sunlight. The disappearance of frogs and an alleged rise of melanoma in people were both attributed to ozone depletion. So too was a supposed rash of blindness in animals: Al Gore wrote in 1992 about blind salmon and rabbits, while The New York Times reported “an increase in Twilight Zone-type reports of sheep and rabbits with cataracts” in Patagonia. But all these accounts proved incorrect. The frogs were dying of a fungal disease spread by people; the sheep had viral pinkeye; the mortality rate from melanoma actually leveled off during the growth of the ozone hole; and as for the blind salmon and rabbits, they were never heard of again.

There was an international agreement to cease using CFCs by 1996. But the predicted recovery of the ozone layer never happened: The hole stopped growing before the ban took effect, then failed to shrink afterward. The ozone hole still grows every Antarctic spring, to roughly the same extent each year. Nobody quite knows why. Some scientists think it is simply taking longer than expected for the chemicals to disintegrate; a few believe that the cause of the hole was misdiagnosed in the first place. Either way, the ozone hole cannot yet be claimed as a looming catastrophe, let alone one averted by political action.
The ozone hole was predicted in the 70s. It was only discovered in the 86. Whats more this is a confused, unreferenced argument. He seems to be claiming that CFCs have no impact but has no source.

A few years later, a fatal virus did begin to spread at an alarming rate, initially through the homosexual community. AIDS was soon, rightly, the focus of serious alarm. But not all the dire predictions proved correct.
34million black africans live with the disease. So for a white, wealthy, failed banker, nothing to worry about.

And again, why is the spread of AIDS being slowed? Because we acted to increase preventative measures.

In 1977 President Jimmy Carter went on television and declared: “World oil production can probably keep going up for another six or eight years. But sometime in the 1980s, it can’t go up anymore. Demand will overtake production.”
Jimmy Carter? A politician was wrong once, there oil reserves are unlimited.
In 1956, M. King Hubbert, a Shell geophysicist, forecast that gas production in the US would peak at about 14 trillion cubic feet per year sometime around 1970.

All these predictions failed to come true. Oil and gas production have continued to rise during the past 50 years
Funny he is ignoring the prediction that Hubbert got right. That oil would peak in the US in about 1970.

So this failed banker can cherry pick some predictions that went wrong and then use the grossly dishonest argument that by being concerned and acting we have reduced and prevented problems as proof that problems do not exist.

Pollyanna hopium for the desperate.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:25:48

When you and me had an exchange in the summer I was saying that unrecoverable oil would become recoverable if the market price of oil went up, and that it can go up way higher than it is today, and that oil is still very cheap today.
You were saying that increasing the market price of oil wouldn't impact our ability to extract oil much, so that peak oil would be around 2013-2015.

:cry:

Now with your latest post you seem to have agreed with my previous stance. A 75% recovery rate for all the fields we've found will give plenty of oil for decades.
" the course of the economy " ?
You see what happens when the oil industry decides it needs more oil. Suddenly and 'fortunately' an oil rich nation is 'evil' and needs invading, and all the surrounding oil rich nations need revolutions as well.

This supports my thinking you were being too pessimistic with your ' oil technology and discovery have run their course and now we will peak ' idea.


you probably missed my latest post where I pointed out that despite very high oil prices companies have not increased exploration and indeed are retrenching. The point is they need investors money to be able to explore and they aren't getting any due to economic woes and pessimistic investor outlook. The same can be said for R&D, very little in the way of investment dollars for it currently so it is curtailed. I said that 75% ultimate recovery rate might be possible technically but I did not say at what expense, effort or time frame, all of which have to be taken into account. For simpler reservoir issues it could happen quickly and could be quite economic, however for more difficult problems such as oil wet reservoirs or viscous essentially dead oil it remains to be seen at what time a solution could be achieved or whether it could be done economically. It's not like you can just snap your fingers and we suddenly have high recovery rates in all fields.

An interesting example is heavy oil fields. In the case of the Venezuelan Orinoco fields cold flow is possible but that results in very low recovery factor (<10%). SAGD has been employed in the Alberta tar sands and it has very high recovery factors (60%) but is also extremely expensive, requires a lot of natural gas for power and a lot of water. Nexen has run into the experience that although the recovery factor is theoretically high for SAGD the realities are somewhat less as they have run into all sorts of problems with the predictability of where the steam is actually going. SAGD isn't particularily new, it has been around in theory since the early seventies. Fifty years later it still is only sparsely employed even though the theory would say it should be universally applicable across the entirety of the Canadian Oil Sands.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:31:48

Newfie wrote:I guess you don't worry about the effect of burning that stuff and GW?

Or you are just assuming e will go after it no matter the ultimate cost?

Not meant to be snarky or sarcastic, honest question.


Rocdoc, this was directed to you.
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Re: Why we shouldn't worry about end times

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 09 Dec 2012, 13:22:22

rockdoc123 wrote:An interesting example is heavy oil fields. In the case of the Venezuelan Orinoco fields cold flow is possible but that results in very low recovery factor (<10%). SAGD has been employed in the Alberta tar sands and it has very high recovery factors (60%) but is also extremely expensive, requires a lot of natural gas for power and a lot of water. Nexen has run into the experience that although the recovery factor is theoretically high for SAGD the realities are somewhat less as they have run into all sorts of problems with the predictability of where the steam is actually going. SAGD isn't particularily new, it has been around in theory since the early seventies. Fifty years later it still is only sparsely employed even though the theory would say it should be universally applicable across the entirety of the Canadian Oil Sands.


From what I have read the THAI and THAI-CAPRI systems are working out to be much lower cost than SAGD in both the Bitumen sands of Alberta and in the heavy oil fields where they have been tested the last several years. While it is true fire floods have been done before the new mapping and planning methods seem to make them much more efficient in places where the geology is favorable.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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