[dohboi]

I actually see a lot more effort from the 'left' to understand people on the 'right' than vise versa. I saw lots of essays trying to understand what motivates Trump supporters, but I have seen little form conservative sources trying to understand Clinton, or even Bernie, supporters.

[Newfie]

I actually see a lot more effort from the 'left' to understand people on the 'right' than vise versa. I saw lots of essays trying to understand what motivates Trump supporters, but I have seen little form conservative sources trying to understand Clinton, or even Bernie, supporters.

Again, difference of perspective. I'll bet the R finds the L essays as intrusion into this personal space and proof of how clueless they are. The L probably interprets the Rs affect with paranoia, while the R sees it as being quietly tolerant.

Of course there are outliers who the baiting and trolling on both sides. It just that each side presents a different personality type.

It's marriage counselling on a national scale.

[dohboi]

"marriage counselling on a national scale"

Nice.

[careinke]

So let's say the carbon tax is imposed, everything cost more, yet folks still need to drive this way and that. Contrary to what the fankids say, most auto-milage is not discretionary.

But we go ahead and tax people's heat, their commutes, and in fact everything that is made with petroleum. The resulting tax income does what? Goes where? Some back to the poor as low-income deductions so they don't starve. Some toward mass-transit for much-needed improvement to road beds, switches etc. But most goes to highways because that is our transportation infrastructure. We fix the highways that the cars run on perhaps allowing the cars to run more efficiently. Great plan, that one. And you? How do we actually slow emissions, other than yap? Or tax folks? Details details details.

I'd rather see the tax replace other taxes, like the tax on labor (income tax), and some back to everyone to offset the carbon tax up to twice the poverty level.

[Tanada]

"marriage counselling on a national scale"

Nice.

There is a crucial difference. If you go to a marriage counselor and you engage in name calling against your spouse the counselor does not take your side and agree your spouse is whatever name you just called them. In modern America the media does not act like a counselor getting the two sides to talk through their disagreements, instead no matter how wild or unsubstantiated the claim of any Democrat is against any Republican the media immediately adopts that accusation as a 'true fact' and repeats it endlessly. The same is true for the most part by sports figures, entertainers and academics.

That is not counseling, that is a hostile environment that breeds nothing but resentment and resistance.

[dohboi]

Of course, the Repubs are past pro's at repeating lies till people start to believe them. But yeah, the media is culpable at magnifying all sorts of things that otherwise would only be minor issues. It's like the couple has an evil kid who gets a kick out of marital spats and eggs them on everytime they see one possibly arising.

Meanwhile, here's another angle on the whole issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_a ... rientation

A number of studies have found that biology may be linked with political orientation.[1] This means that biology is a possible factor in political orientation, but may also mean that the ideology a person identifies with changes a person's ability to perform certain tasks.

[Newfie]

I'm pretty sure biology plays a much bigger role than we tend to credit it.

[Outcast_Searcher]

So let's say the carbon tax is imposed, everything cost more, yet folks still need to drive this way and that. Contrary to what the fankids say, most auto-milage is not discretionary.

But we go ahead and tax people's heat, their commutes, and in fact everything that is made with petroleum. The resulting tax income does what? Goes where? Some back to the poor as low-income deductions so they don't starve. Some toward mass-transit for much-needed improvement to road beds, switches etc. But most goes to highways because that is our transportation infrastructure. We fix the highways that the cars run on perhaps allowing the cars to run more efficiently. Great plan, that one. And you? How do we actually slow emissions, other than yap? Or tax folks? Details details details.

I'd rather see the tax replace other taxes, like the tax on labor (income tax), and some back to everyone to offset the carbon tax up to twice the poverty level.

Yup. Way to think outside the box careinke. Something like that would be an effective compromise.

Sadly, we can't have THAT -- not by EITHER side. Most liberals love income taxes to "punish the rich" far too much. Conservatives, by and large, are unwilling to even concede the reality of AGW, much less that we need to get serious about mitigating it.

And so it goes. Stupidity on a galactic scale for petty reasons -- reasons which could be easily dealt with via some meaningful compromise.

Oh, and wouldn't it be far better for our taxes to be based on preventing bad stuff (CO2, pollution, waste, etc) than good stuff (productive labor?) Are our axes we grind so firmly entrenched that we can't even see this as a society?

[ralfy]

Conservatives are Red State, rural resource-dependent economies whereas Liberals are Blue State, urban/suburban and mostly indoors. Farmers, ranchers, timber workers and miners are outside where climate is. When you spend time in the wood, considering the ECOLOGY of the PLANET, you get a different perspective.

My time away from suburbia has changed me. I was a city boy, born and raised in NYC. My 30-year migration into the woods (via 10 years in Pennsylvania farm country) has changed my attitude toward hunting, life and death, seasons, and climate. The Earth will not be modeled. Take it as it comes or you will remain angry and frustrated. Trust me.

The point that it "will not be modeled" makes matters worse.

[AgentR11]

It's marriage counselling on a national scale.

Some marriages end in double homicide.

[sparky]

.
a work colleague marriage went into meltdown , with plenty of hard feelings around
they had to go to a counselor before starting divorce proceeding ( this is Australia, New South Wales state !)

the counselor told them their were idiots ,
they didn't have much assets !
the lawyers would mine them for everything they could by making the confrontation toxic and long lasting
at the end the judge would give them the standard deal ,
their best financial move was to go with the standard deal straight away
and save themselves months of vomit, heartache and cost.
they did , my friend got skinned some but thing worked out good with his ex ,more or less ,
the kid didn't end up in a battle zone ,
now that he is 18 an as well adjusted as any beer swilling Aussie surfer can be .

[Tanada]

.
a work colleague marriage went into meltdown , with plenty of hard feelings around
they had to go to a counselor before starting divorce proceeding ( this is Australia, New South Wales state !)

the counselor told them their were idiots ,
they didn't have much assets !
the lawyers would mine them for everything they could by making the confrontation toxic and long lasting
at the end the judge would give them the standard deal ,
their best financial move was to go with the standard deal straight away
and save themselves months of vomit, heartache and cost.
they did , my friend got skinned some but thing worked out good with his ex ,more or less ,
the kid didn't end up in a battle zone ,
now that he is 18 an as well adjusted as any beer swilling Aussie surfer can be .

So to Americanize this analogy the Mainstream Media is one lawyer and the Banking Industry are the other lawyer and the voters are the kids being used as pawns by both sides to wring everything they can out of the political parties for their own benefit?

[sparky]

.
From Adam Smith , the father of modern economics

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner,
but from their regard to their own interest."

[kiwichick]

generally I would say most Australian farmers could be described as conservative.......and yet...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-29/c ... ey/8075542


slowly , possible progress.....

[Tanada]

generally I would say most Australian farmers could be described as conservative.......and yet...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-29/c ... ey/8075542


slowly , possible progress.....

Did you carefully read it? The farmers want the politicians to focus on adaptation. This is a crucial point IMO, most of us who care at all realize its too late to stop or substantially slow climate change. Once we admit that adapting to the changes as best as we can is the hope we have left.

I think those demanding we 'do something' are in their own kind of denial, instead of moving on to adaptation they are stuck in the illusion we can still stop or substantially slow climate change. That is not how tipping points work. Changing our release of CO2 is meaningless now, we need to change our lifestyle to survive or even thrive in the new climate.

[dohboi]

"Changing our release of CO2 is meaningless now"

No, T.

It is always possible to make things even worse, which is pretty much what we have been doing.

And of course out power to rationalize away why we don't have to make any personal or political changes is generally much more powerful than our other rational capacities, as we see here once again.

[Subjectivist]

"Changing our release of CO2 is meaningless now"

No, T.

It is always possible to make things even worse, which is pretty much what we have been doing.

And of course out power to rationalize away why we don't have to make any personal or political changes is generally much more powerful than our other rational capacities, as we see here once again.

Dohboi you are in a classic state of denial. Nobody outside of the 1 percent of real environmentally minded folks is doing anything. Even you are constantly opposing partial solutions like nuclear power that provide low carbon energy.

Wake up and smell the coffee already, the train is heading down the tracks and the only hope for the ecosystem is we actively participate in adaptation. This constant denial you are in is not healthy.

[efarmer]

We live in a matrix where exponential growth in energy, food, and resource exploitation is necessary to match our exponential growth in population globally, and our exponential growth in consumption domestically. The Conservative / Liberal duality both depend on it to implement their various ideas with the results from process. This leads to the tendency for us to pursue growth at any cost present or future and to often deny anything real and tangible that presents itself as an obstacle to the underlying exploit that makes all things possible. Of course this political duality is a remnant from when the exploit was running well and the argument was about how to manage the process in a Liberal (Socialistic), Hybrid, or Conservative (Darwin incentivized with the winners urged to be generous).
All you need to win in this environment is to promise exponential growth, all you need to remain
in power is to deliver it, and perhaps some killer tweets to spice it up.

[Newfie]

Dohboi can't accept that the population must decrease. And if it must decrease it MUST be white males that go first.

Then wonders why we don't stand in line to contribute to his program.