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When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 12:37:10

Thanks V2 for your long post. It was good . no time for further comments..
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 12:43:47

Cog wrote:
GHung wrote:
Cog wrote:Darn those pesky capitalists for creating modern civilization and giving us the best standard of living the world has ever known.


Yes! The best! High levels of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, obscene waste streams, and a population that is clearly clueless about pretty much anything that matters much. And we have compassion and family valu........ (never mind that).

The Best!


Some people make bad life choices. Doesn't mean I need to cage them up.


Personal liberty and feedom is arguably overrated when you look around at the high percentage who have indeed made bad choices. Decadence and mediocrity is the result for the vast majority. Squandered.....

I am admittedly a bitbof an elitest. The vast majority of the middle class are undeserving of their wealth and privilege and the sooner that the consequences of human overshoot ravage this segment of the population the better.

An ideal future society will have a small elite, benevolent and wise supported by serfs with constrained consumption and freedoms.

A broad middle class of mediocre humans with too much freedom has been a major contributor
of ecological imbalances on the planet.
you know .... all of us!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 06:48:27

Vermillion2 wrote:
In the United States and probably Canada, the plains are now reforesting, and four-legged animals such as deer and bison are making rapid comebacks as the midwest depopulates. It is now common to see deer, coyotes, mountain lions and even panthers in urban communities where they hadn't been seen for nearly 100 years. I know Japan (newly reforested) is now being overrun with bears, sika deer and wild hogs as every region except Tokyo and Osaka empty out.


On a planetary scale this recolonization of former human habitat will happen incredibly fast once human population declines and or we see more conglomeration in urban areas. The bounce back from nature is astonishing actually.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 13:40:04

Extinct species don’t bounce back, fish or foul, two or four legged.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 13:44:57

GASMON wrote:
Ibon wrote:An ideal future society will have a small elite, benevolent and wise supported by serfs with constrained consumption and freedoms.


Now where have I read this before ?- Ah Yes - Karl Marx, Mao Tse Tung and our own George Orwell !!

"All pigs are equal - but some are more equal than others "

Benevolent and wise elite my arse - COG !!! - COG !!! Where are your god damn guns !!!!

Gas


I’ve no idea what our “ideal future nsociety” will look like. And I suspect that it will be different for each individual. One mans hevan is another mans he’ll.

Unless we revert to chicken coop Earth, which seems where most of us want to go. Even the chicken coop has the Farmer to feed and breed.which in this case would simple be another name for Ibon’s elite?

I liked Orwell (and Jack London). But in truth I find Brave New World much more accurate. Also Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves to Death.” Both warm of world in which entertainment is valued over education.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 13:47:54

Newfie wrote:Extinct species don’t bounce back, fish or foul, two or four legged.


I expect the glass to still be over 90% full. Doesn't mean that those 10% or whatever extinctions aren't a tragedy. Important is refuge habitat out of which this recolonization can happen.

We've been over this before. My point is the resiliency of the bounce back.

And of course the salve for the soul imagining the ruins of former human landscapes repopulated by a still rich and vibrant biodiversity.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 13:56:58

Newfie wrote:
GASMON wrote:
Ibon wrote:An ideal future society will have a small elite, benevolent and wise supported by serfs with constrained consumption and freedoms.


Now where have I read this before ?- Ah Yes - Karl Marx, Mao Tse Tung and our own George Orwell !!

"All pigs are equal - but some are more equal than others "

Benevolent and wise elite my arse - COG !!! - COG !!! Where are your god damn guns !!!!

Gas


I’ve no idea what our “ideal future nsociety” will look like. And I suspect that it will be different for each individual. One mans hevan is another mans he’ll.

Unless we revert to chicken coop Earth, which seems where most of us want to go.


Think about the arrangement of almost all civilizations since 9000 years. Small controlling elite, small merchant class and then a broad base of serfs, slaves or peons. The only exception of this arrangement was the emergence well into the industrial revolution of a broad global middle class enabled by fossil fuels.

Those fossil fuels recede and this anomaly recedes back to the arrangement that dominated 95% of civilization, a tiny elite and a broad base of serfs. This is ecologically the best arrangement for our planet.

An empowered middle class based on consumption has been an ecological disaster for the planet. Blame the rich or blame the middle class themselves it makes no difference, they are who they are. Mainly mediocre humans, ignorant of ecological principals, happy to consume and live dumbed down lives, asking little of themselves beyond shallow consumption.

The sooner we get back to serfdom the better. The way disparity has been growing during the past couple decades is going to only pick up speed more and more as fossil fuels recede. This is good for it will take away wealth and consumption power from the middle class.

The elite have always been here and will never go away, the most you can hope for is some degree of benevolence and wisdom.

The weakening of the middle class is going to happen whether you wish them well or wish them to perish, it makes no difference, they are heading fast toward the exit and we will quickly return to the historical norm of civilization without the hundreds of millions of middle class consumers.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:02:24

There are a lot of plain old psychopaths on the left, who just want to kill people they don't like. Just admit that and we can skip the verbiage used to justify it.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:04:50

Cog wrote:There are a lot of plain old psychopaths on the left, who just want to kill people they don't like. Just admit that and we can skip the verbiage used to justify it.


I thought the left was full of bleeding hearts that want to spread the wealth and make everyone get through the ecological bottleneck painlessly.

Now they are psychopaths wanting to kill people. And they don't even have guns! !
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:09:07

What you expect and what occurs are two different things. 90%? Maybe. But not if you listen to Cid, and Disisent who make good arguments the future is much bleaker.

The possibility exists we will annihilate everything down to bacteria.

So when you make unqualified statements as you did above you are assuming a world view that remains unproven, opinion not fact.

Personally I don’t know how many species we will eliminate. I think humanity has already exterminated quite a few over the last 200,000 years. Quite possibly 10% are already gone. So are you saying an additional 10%. Even that I think is a very low estimate. Of course I might be wrong because there a thousands of species of ants and termites and such. I tend to discount them and think more of larger, more developed species.

Personally I’m guessing that when 7.7 billion get real hungry we will eat everything possible to stay alive. Som I would guess we will eat to extinction 50% of all edible mamillian species bigger than a rat.

It’s a difficult subject to hetnhands around because of all the site definitions and preconceptions. But it’s clear that if we simply exterminated all of our normal food animals (cows, pigs, chickens) this would be a vanishingly small % of species, but would have tremendous effect on humanity.

Let’s think about biomass, we’ve eliminated about 90% of the oceans fish biomass, Massachusetts state symbol, the southern banks cod, is in danger of extinction. We have so damaged the marine eco system that the new rising consensus is the entire system has changed favoring jellyfish and such.

As much as I hope you are right I think you are grossly wrong. And again, neither of us will live to know for sure. But I do think ther is. Merit in erroring on the safe side.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:13:09

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:
GASMON wrote:
Ibon wrote:An ideal future society will have a small elite, benevolent and wise supported by serfs with constrained consumption and freedoms.


Now where have I read this before ?- Ah Yes - Karl Marx, Mao Tse Tung and our own George Orwell !!

"All pigs are equal - but some are more equal than others "

Benevolent and wise elite my arse - COG !!! - COG !!! Where are your god damn guns !!!!

Gas


I’ve no idea what our “ideal future nsociety” will look like. And I suspect that it will be different for each individual. One mans hevan is another mans he’ll.

Unless we revert to chicken coop Earth, which seems where most of us want to go.


Think about the arrangement of almost all civilizations since 9000 years. Small controlling elite, small merchant class and then a broad base of serfs, slaves or peons. The only exception of this arrangement was the emergence well into the industrial revolution of a broad global middle class enabled by fossil fuels.

Those fossil fuels recede and this anomaly recedes back to the arrangement that dominated 95% of civilization, a tiny elite and a broad base of serfs. This is ecologically the best arrangement for our planet.

An empowered middle class based on consumption has been an ecological disaster for the planet. Blame the rich or blame the middle class themselves it makes no difference, they are who they are. Mainly mediocre humans, ignorant of ecological principals, happy to consume and live dumbed down lives, asking little of themselves beyond shallow consumption.

The sooner we get back to serfdom the better. The way disparity has been growing during the past couple decades is going to only pick up speed more and more as fossil fuels recede. This is good for it will take away wealth and consumption power from the middle class.

The elite have always been here and will never go away, the most you can hope for is some degree of benevolence and wisdom.

The weakening of the middle class is going to happen whether you wish them well or wish them to perish, it makes no difference, they are heading fast toward the exit and we will quickly return to the historical norm of civilization without the hundreds of millions of middle class consumers.


Ibon,

You are the one who is always arguing that we will have to smerge from the bottle neck different than we went in. Now your arguing we should keep the same system that got us here. Whiplash buddy, whiplash. Which way is it”New and improved” or Classic.”?

I’ve got no dog in the fight cause I don’t claim to know the future. Just pointing out the inconsistency.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:16:41

Cog wrote:There are a lot of plain old psychopaths on the left, who just want to kill people they don't like. Just admit that and we can skip the verbiage used to justify it.


I don’t see any Left/Right split in this discussion. Red herring.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:19:46

Ibon wrote:
Cog wrote:There are a lot of plain old psychopaths on the left, who just want to kill people they don't like. Just admit that and we can skip the verbiage used to justify it.


I thought the left was full of bleeding hearts that want to spread the wealth and make everyone get through the ecological bottleneck painlessly.

Now they are psychopaths wanting to kill people. And they don't even have guns! !


Geese, you go for the bait again and again.

I doubt psychopaths have any political affiliation or if they do it’s random.

Nothing political here.

sy·cho·path
/ˈsīkəˌpaTH/Submit
noun
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.
synonyms: madman/madwoman, mad person, deranged person, maniac, lunatic, psychotic, sociopath; informalloony, fruitcake, nutcase, nut, nutter, nutjob, cuckoo, psycho, schizo, head case, headbanger, sicko, crank, crackpot; informalradge; informalscrewball, crazy, kook, meshuggener, nutso; informalwing nut
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:29:35

We have just had Ibon say he wanted to subject mankind to serfdom. If that isn't a psychopath, who wants to impose his will on others, then I don't know what is.

But keyboard tyrants don't impress me. Everyone wants to be a tyrant until it's time to do tyrant things.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 15:49:18

Cog wrote:We have just had Ibon say he wanted to subject mankind to serfdom. If that isn't a psychopath, who wants to impose his will on others, then I don't know what is.



Hmmmm. I think it is peak oil and other consequences of human overshoot that will take us back to the historical norm of a small elite and broad underclass of serfs. The affluence of the middle class was permitted to rise because of 1) abundant fossil fuels and 2) The wealth pump that the consumption of the middle class gave to the extreme wealthy.

This has nothing to do with what Ibon wants.

So when the middle class goes from an asset to a liability what then happens?

Ecologist Ibon welcomes the weakening of the middle class. That is true. The very wealthy will do the tyranny, not psychopaths on the left.

It is worth repeating. For the wealthy during times of abundance the middle class have been an asset as the wealth pump effect of their consumption further enriched the very wealthy. In times of upcoming constraints and a tightening resource base the middle class will then become a liability.

Who will be the tyrants bringing the middle class back down to serfdom?

Think about it.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 15:50:46

Cog wrote:We have just had Ibon say he wanted to subject mankind to serfdom. If that isn't a psychopath, who wants to impose his will on others, then I don't know what is.

But keyboard tyrants don't impress me. Everyone wants to be a tyrant until it's time to do tyrant things.

Sorry to intrude but maybe Ibon wants it because a thriving large middle class has been an unmitigated disaster for the planet. The question of the elite is a more subtle complex issue. It does seem our species tends to organize around a ruling group or class. Which is why humanity must adopt some key principles as the cornerstone of society and hold these principles as sacrosanct and inviolable
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 15:51:55

Newfie wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Cog wrote:There are a lot of plain old psychopaths on the left, who just want to kill people they don't like. Just admit that and we can skip the verbiage used to justify it.


I thought the left was full of bleeding hearts that want to spread the wealth and make everyone get through the ecological bottleneck painlessly.

Now they are psychopaths wanting to kill people. And they don't even have guns! !


Geese, you go for the bait again and again.


It's a game Newfie.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 16:02:08

The game I'm watching right now is the Democratic Socialists trying to take over the Democratic Party. Once that dust settles, it will be easier to identify the domestic enemies of the Republic.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 16:06:52

Newfie wrote:
Ibon,

You are the one who is always arguing that we will have to smerge from the bottle neck different than we went in. Now your arguing we should keep the same system that got us here. Whiplash buddy, whiplash. Which way is it”New and improved” or Classic.”?

I’ve got no dog in the fight cause I don’t claim to know the future. Just pointing out the inconsistency.


We will all be dead by the time any of this future unfolds so none of us have skin in the game. All of the projections we make regarding the future are biased by how these musings allow us to cope with the here and now. We should all be self reflective enough to recognize this.

Anyway, my position is not inconsistent by the way. I don't believe in or support an egalitarian society. I truly and honestly do hold a somewhat elitist position whereby the vast majority of humans need to be lead by a small cadre of those in power. This has been the historical norm and will not change. Most want to be in the derogatory category of sheeples. When I propose that the bottleneck will be an opportunity to emerge with a culture more enlightened around sustainable practices toward our mother earth I absolutely see this being done by this cadre of the wise, the leaders. Benevolent toward the environment, instilling a sense of reverence and sacredness toward mother earth will be achieved by religious institutions. Look how many willingly follow dead saints from 2000 years ago today. You really think we can't lead the masses in a similar way in the future. There will always be a large segment of humanity that will need to frame their world view under the concept of a god. That is fine. The bottleneck of human overshoot will provide the biblical floods so to speak so that gods wrath and sin is directed towards those who do not follow his environmental commandments. This is where the wise and benevolent leadership must set the templates.

Probably the aftermath of the bottle neck will also resemble the historical norm where church and state will be once again united.

The masses will not be lead without a synergy between church and state setting the mandates and commandments.

Thus culture will be molded along sustainable practices.

There is no other conceivable way in my view.
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